Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?

[benale]

I played current pop music for 35 years on one station. I started in 1974 and I still really enjoyed the music, By the mid 80's I found less and less to be excited about. I was a teenager in the 60's and that is still my favorite decade for music. I still find good music in every era. That "Someone I used to know"is a great pop song and "Clocks" by Coldplay is one of the great singles of the 90's. I don't enjoy rap,the sameness of dance oriented music eg Katy Perry and hard edged rock groups,but music is all subjective.

If I was born in 1969 or 1979 instead of 1949 I would probably feel differently. The Beatles are generally considered to be the greatest group of all time. I was 15 when The Beatles first arrived. Fast forward twenty years..if I was 15 in 1984,instead of 1964,I wonder if I would feel the same about the Beatles. I have always loved music and when I was 15 I loved the Beatles and all the hits of the day. but I also loved Sinatra and Dean Martin and doo-wop music.

As said, it's all subjective and I do agree on the oldies/classic hits classification. The term oldies applies to late 50's,60's,early 70's. Classic hits refers to rock hits from 1964-1969,the 70's and the 80's.

 

[firepoint525]

Re: Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?q

Which is the point someone will make about The Beach Boys soon when someone says "Hey, but Kokomo was late 80s", or, when 90s music ages in, when someone says "But the Beatles had those two singles...". Same thing. Different generation.

Oldies 96.3 (when we had them, 2005 and earlier) played "Kokomo," but never touched the Anthology singles. In retrospect, probably a good decision. Since then, "Kokomo" has played primarily only on the AC station, Mix 92.9. Classic hits (yeah, 97.1 again) played older Beach Boys tunes (I think) but never "Kokomo." And I have not heard "Kokomo" on Hippie, either, only the "classic" Beach Boys songs. I have heard Tom Kent pull out "Kokomo" on his '80s night (usually Friday nights), but he is on Mix 92.9 locally anyway. "Kokomo" was a big AC hit, so it fits just fine there. (And not sure if this is an issue with Beach Boys fans at all, but this is one of the few Beach Boys hits that Brian Wilson had absolutely nothing to do with. He is not a cowriter of it, nor did he appear on it or even in the video for it. This is strictly a Mike Love Beach Boys song, which may have something to do with how Beach Boys "purists" view it.)

Other '80s/'90s hits which may have trouble getting airplay in the future are all those movie re-releases, like "Unchained Melody" and Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful World." Both of these will sound highly dated among '90s tunes. "Unchained" was actually a '50s revisit, even when the Righteous Brothers covered it in 1965. I don't recall hearing too many Big Chill tunes on "80s" stations, so that would seem to suggest that "Unchained" and "Wonderful World" may have a short shelf life ahead of them. Again, these may be more likely to live on as AC hits. There is a remix out there of "Wonderful World" which features Kenny G on it, so like it or not, that may extend its shelf life (at least in the remixed version) for a few more years.

 

[oldies76]

I still find good music in every era. That "Someone I used to know"is a great pop song and "Clocks" by Coldplay is one of the great singles of the 90's.

"Clocks" is from 2002/03, but yes those are two very good songs and hopefully we'll be hearing them in the future as classic hits. When I first heard Gotye "Someone That I Used to Know", it was at #53 I believe back in February of 2012 and slowly heading up the chart. After hearing it, I said..this song has got to make #1, it's different and a throwback. Also "Locked Out of Heaven" is another one!

 

[oldies76]

Re: Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?q

to the generation that made Frank and Dean superstars, their music has largely (unless you live in a market with a standards station) faded from over the air commercial radio...despite millions of those people still being alive and some of their music being appreciated by some members of the current demographic.

I believe WCBS uses a segment from "New York, New York" as part of a Legal ID jingle every hour. Too bad "Strangers in the Night" has all but faded from radio....such a great song!

 

[CTListener]

That being said, I have to think the audiences are vastly different - the people who bought Believe and far from the same ones who bought "The Beat Goes On", so is that familiarity useless?

Yes, because anyone who bought "The Beat Goes On" is almost certainly outside the demo. To the target audience, Cher is an actress who had some hit records. "Believe" was the biggest in their frame of reference.

But people within the demo will know the even earlier "I Got You Babe" because of its "Groundhog Day" exposure. (And what exposure it got! That saturation product placement must've cost a pretty penny.)

 

[michael hagerty]

That being said, I have to think the audiences are vastly different - the people who bought Believe and far from the same ones who bought "The Beat Goes On", so is that familiarity useless?

Yes, because anyone who bought "The Beat Goes On" is almost certainly outside the demo. To the target audience, Cher is an actress who had some hit records. "Believe" was the biggest in their frame of reference.

But people within the demo will know the even earlier "I Got You Babe" because of its "Groundhog Day" exposure. (And what exposure it got! That saturation product placement must've cost a pretty penny.)

To those who've seen it, yes.

The thing people forget about movies is that they're all, even the biggest ones, seen by a minority of the population. A $100,000,000 box office? Awesome. Now divide that by a $10 ticket price. That's ten million paying customers in a country of more than 300 million people. And that's not factoring in people who saw it twice.

Even by the time you get through purchases, rentals and tv runs, the biggest movies ever are hard-pressed to get to 50% audience penetration.

 

[CTListener]

That being said, I have to think the audiences are vastly different - the people who bought Believe and far from the same ones who bought "The Beat Goes On", so is that familiarity useless?

Yes, because anyone who bought "The Beat Goes On" is almost certainly outside the demo. To the target audience, Cher is an actress who had some hit records. "Believe" was the biggest in their frame of reference.

But people within the demo will know the even earlier "I Got You Babe" because of its "Groundhog Day" exposure. (And what exposure it got! That saturation product placement must've cost a pretty penny.)

To those who've seen it, yes.

The thing people forget about movies is that they're all, even the biggest ones, seen by a minority of the population. A $100,000,000 box office? Awesome. Now divide that by a $10 ticket price. That's ten million paying customers in a country of more than 300 million people. And that's not factoring in people who saw it twice.

Even by the time you get through purchases, rentals and tv runs, the biggest movies ever are hard-pressed to get to 50% audience penetration.

"I Got You Babe" lives forever on TV. It always is shown around Groundhog Day itself -- in fact, you'll often see it multiple times in February because it works as a Valentine's Day movie as well. By now, I would imagine many, many, many more people have seen it on TV (over and over and over) than ever saw it in a theater. I'd imagine 50 percent penetration is quite possible in this case.

 

[michael hagerty]

That being said, I have to think the audiences are vastly different - the people who bought Believe and far from the same ones who bought "The Beat Goes On", so is that familiarity useless?

Yes, because anyone who bought "The Beat Goes On" is almost certainly outside the demo. To the target audience, Cher is an actress who had some hit records. "Believe" was the biggest in their frame of reference.

But people within the demo will know the even earlier "I Got You Babe" because of its "Groundhog Day" exposure. (And what exposure it got! That saturation product placement must've cost a pretty penny.)

To those who've seen it, yes.

The thing people forget about movies is that they're all, even the biggest ones, seen by a minority of the population. A $100,000,000 box office? Awesome. Now divide that by a $10 ticket price. That's ten million paying customers in a country of more than 300 million people. And that's not factoring in people who saw it twice.

Even by the time you get through purchases, rentals and tv runs, the biggest movies ever are hard-pressed to get to 50% audience penetration.

"I Got You Babe" lives forever on TV. It always is shown around Groundhog Day itself -- in fact, you'll often see it multiple times in February because it works as a Valentine's Day movie as well. By now, I would imagine many, many, many more people have seen it on TV (over and over and over) than ever say it in a theater.

Fixed it for you.

As I said, even the biggest movies (Avatar, Titanic, Avengers, The Dark Knight, Star Wars, E.T.) even after TV exposure and all the rest, are hard pressed to get to the point where half the population has seen it.

Not saying movies don't have an impact, they do. But cautioning to keep that in perspective.

The reverse is true as well. John Cafferty went Top 10 in 1983 with "The Dark Side", from the movie "Eddie and the Cruisers". I always thought that the song's popularity reflected that of the movie. Come to find out it never made back its negative costs. $7 million to make, a shade under $5 million at the box office.

 

[CTListener]

Yeah, you're probably right again, now that I think about it a little longer. So many Americans who are too young, too old, minority group, non-English-speaking, way out in the sticks, etc., that 50 percent for any movie has to be a rare achievement. Color me chastened.

 

[michael hagerty]

Yeah, you're probably right again, now that I think about it a little longer. So many Americans who are too young, too old, minority group, non-English-speaking, way out in the sticks, etc., that 50 percent for any movie has to be a rare achievement. Color me chastened.

Well, not just that, but $10 bucks a pop just for the ticket...then there's snacks, a drink....the last time we had a movie all four of us went to see, I wound up about $75 lighter. It's not cheap entertainment.

Always remember when considering how big a movie is...divide by 10. Avatar did $760 million domestically. But at an average ticket price of $10, that means 76 million people saw it...or about a quarter of the American population. Now factor in the amount of 3D and IMAX tickets that sold for $15-$20 a pop, and that 76 million drops. It falls again when you factor in the people who saw the movie multiple times.

Groundhog Day did only $70 million at the box office. Movies were more like $7 a ticket then (it's been 21 years), so figure 10 million people saw it at the movies. It's had 20 years worth of VHS, DVD and Blu-Ray rentals as well as cable and television play, but still, going from 10 million people (minus repeat business) to 150 million (roughly half the population) is a steep climb.

 

[firepoint525]

The reverse is true as well. John Cafferty went Top 10 in 1983 with "The Dark Side", from the movie "Eddie and the Cruisers". I always thought that the song's popularity reflected that of the movie. Come to find out it never made back its negative costs. $7 million to make, a shade under $5 million at the box office.

Actually, it tanked when released in '83, and didn't become a hit until re-released in summer '84. The followup single, "Tender Years," also became a minor hit when re-released in late '84. The reissues were credited to John Cafferty and the Beaver Brown Band. The original releases had been credited to Eddie and the Cruisers. The movie itself would have to be considered a flop. I never saw it until it aired on THIS-TV.

 

[OldNumber7]

The reverse is true as well. John Cafferty went Top 10 in 1983 with "The Dark Side", from the movie "Eddie and the Cruisers". I always thought that the song's popularity reflected that of the movie. Come to find out it never made back its negative costs. $7 million to make, a shade under $5 million at the box office.

Actually, it tanked when released in '83, and didn't become a hit until re-released in summer '84. The followup single, "Tender Years," also became a minor hit when re-released in late '84. The reissues were credited to John Cafferty and the Beaver Brown Band. The original releases had been credited to Eddie and the Cruisers. The movie itself would have to be considered a flop. I never saw it until it aired on THIS-TV.

The movie flopped at the box office but its run on HBO sparked the interest that led to the re-release of the records. Young people saw the movie on HBO (after apparently never knowing about it in the first place), liked the music, and started requesting the songs on the radio and at record stores.

 

[lost45]

Needs both!

 

[michael hagerty]

KJMK switched formats just last March. They had been on a "Lite Rock" format for years, running the same few dozen songs and their station's rating (4.2) into the ground. Their excellent new rating represents not just a changed format but a greatly expanded library (500-600) and daily cash call-in giveaways of $1400 weekly. I appreciate them, but I still listen to "MIKE FM" half the time even though they play FEWER of my favorites simply because of more variety and less predictability. Their playlist is twice the size and I don't get bored.

I'm going to assume "Mike FM" is KMXL. They've dropped from a 9.6 to an 8.1 since KJMK's change. It will bear watching over the next few books (Joplin only does Spring and Fall ratings, so it'll be six months before we see Spring '13), but if you're telling me that a station with 500-600 songs has an 11.0 while a station with twice as many songs lost a point and a half in the same time period (falling behind KJMK), I think that's an early indicator that, even in a small market, a tight list can be a winning strategy. The change happened 10 months ago. That's plenty of time for a market to burn on 500-600 songs. Doesn't seem to be happening, and the competitor with the looser list is losing altitude.

The Spring 2013 Arbitron for Joplin was released yesterday.

KJMK fell half a point, 11.0-10.5. In a market that size, that's margin of error stuff. They remain #3, and are closer to #2 than last book because the CHR, KSYN dropped more than a full point (12.7-11.6). Classic Rock KXDG is #4, moving 6.9-7.6.

More telling, KJMK's closest format competitor, KMXL, dropped 8.1-7.0.

Next book will be Fall 2013, which we'll see around the start of the year.

 

[RIN3GUY]

KJMK switched formats just last March. They had been on a "Lite Rock" format for years, running the same few dozen songs and their station's rating (4.2) into the ground. Their excellent new rating represents not just a changed format but a greatly expanded library (500-600) and daily cash call-in giveaways of $1400 weekly. I appreciate them, but I still listen to "MIKE FM" half the time even though they play FEWER of my favorites simply because of more variety and less predictability. Their playlist is twice the size and I don't get bored.

I'm going to assume "Mike FM" is KMXL. They've dropped from a 9.6 to an 8.1 since KJMK's change. It will bear watching over the next few books (Joplin only does Spring and Fall ratings, so it'll be six months before we see Spring '13), but if you're telling me that a station with 500-600 songs has an 11.0 while a station with twice as many songs lost a point and a half in the same time period (falling behind KJMK), I think that's an early indicator that, even in a small market, a tight list can be a winning strategy. The change happened 10 months ago. That's plenty of time for a market to burn on 500-600 songs. Doesn't seem to be happening, and the competitor with the looser list is losing altitude.

The Spring 2013 Arbitron for Joplin was released yesterday.

KJMK fell half a point, 11.0-10.5. In a market that size, that's margin of error stuff. They remain #3, and are closer to #2 than last book because the CHR, KSYN dropped more than a full point (12.7-11.6). Classic Rock KXDG is #4, moving 6.9-7.6.

More telling, KJMK's closest format competitor, KMXL, dropped 8.1-7.0.

Next book will be Fall 2013, which we'll see around the start of the year.

Michael,
On the whole, KJMK 93.9 in Joplin is doing an excellent job, in spite of their apparent loss of market share. It's been a year & a half since their format change to Classic Hits. They have great personalities, promotions and an overall very good sound. However, I seldom listen anymore. I know their playlist like the back of my hand. Even my kids know it just from riding short distances across town. I have no complaints with them whatsoever except just that they bore me to tears! Therefore my MP3 player is all that's been on of late. It has several hundred great 60s/70s/80s tunes that KJMK could play, but doesn't. These are songs that would be so refreshing to hear and would integrate perfectly with their format, and you can "request" them on their website 50 times but you will never hear any of them.

Someone had commented that radio playlists are not intended to be a museum. But isn't it interesting that the words museum and music have the same root? Both music and museums are intended to be a "muse," to expand and inspire the mind. But playlists that never venture beyond the tight parameters of a library that repeats itself daily are unable to do that. Museums are capable of drawing great crowds, but can also close when they have nothing to offer that most visitors haven't seen before. What I experience with music on 93.9 KJMK and certain other stations fails to hold my attention since it all repeats daily. It's like having a wardrobe of just a half dozen items to wear. Even if they're the best clothes money can buy, you will still get sick of your wardrobe rather quickly!

These are examples of mostly Top 20 hits (with few or no negatives) that I don't hear which I DO miss! All of them have been "requested" on their website feature, but not one has ever been played:

Never Can Say Goodbye - Gloria Gaynor
Whatever Gets You Through the Night - John Lennon
She Did It - Eric Carmen
Games People Play - Spinners
Bad Time - Grand Funk
Heatwave - Linda Ronstadt
Love You Inside Out - Bee Gees
Dreamin' - Blondie
The Groove Line - Heatwave
The Wanderer - Donna Summer
Cover Me - Bruce Springsteen
Sweet Love - Anita Baker
Long, Long Way From Home - Foreigner
Hungry Eyes - Eric Carmen
Miss You Like Crazy - Natalie Cole
My Love - Paul McCartney & Wings
Jimmy Loves Mary-Anne - Looking Glass
What Becomes of the Brokenhearted - Jimmy Ruffin
How Much Love - Leo Sayer
Angel Eyes - Jeff Healey Band
Diamonds - Herb Alpert & Janet Jackson
The Happening - Supremes
Hold On - Santana
Him - Rupert Holmes
Lorelei - Styx
Just Like Jesse James - Cher
Hot in the City - Billy Idol
Thinking of You - Loggins & Messina
Don't Wanna Fall in Love - Jane Child
Shake It - Ian Matthews
Better Love Next Time - Dr. Hook
Say It Isn't So - Hall & Oates
Mind Games - John Lennon
Me & Bobby McGee - Janis Joplin
Kicks - Paul Revere & the Raiders
Your Love is Driving Me Crazy - Sammy Hagar
Incense & Peppermints - Strawberry Alarm Clock
My Girl - Donnie Iris
You Should Hear How She Talks About You - Melissa Manchester
Heart to Heart - Kenny Loggins
I Heard a Rumour - Bananarama
Theme From Mahogany - Diana Ross
Sweetheart - Franke & the Knockouts
96 Tears - ? & the Mysterians
Blame It on the Boogie - Jacksons
Stand Tall - Burton Cummings
Get Down - Gilbert O'Sullivan
Blue Morning, Blue Day - Foreigner
Morning Train - Sheena Easton
Just Like Romeo & Juliet - Reflections
Dream Police - Cheap Trick
Star Baby - The Guess Who
Hold Me Now - Thompson Twins
United We Stand - Brotherhood of Man
I Can't Let Go - Linda Ronstadt
Gemini Dream - Moody Blues
All Over the World - ELO
Tell Me Why - Beatles
Bad Boy - Gloria Estefan
Calling Dr. Love - Kiss
Please Please Me - Beatles
I Hear a Symphony - Supremes
Got a Hold on Me - Christine McVie
Elenore - Turtles
You Made Me Believe in Magic - Bay City Rollers
Don't Let It End - Styx
It's a Shame - Spinners
Good Morning Starshine - Oliver
Midnight Blue - Melissa Manchester
I Feel Love - Donna Summer
SOS - ABBA
Back Off Boogaloo - Ringo Starr
Feel Like Makin' Love - Roberta Flack
All I Need - Temptations
Wham Bam - Silver
Stoned Love - Supremes
Borderline - Madonna
Wishing You Were Here - Chicago
Turn to Stone - ELO
When She Was My Girl - Four Tops
You & Me - Alice Cooper
Didn't We Almost Have It All - Whitney Houston
Xanadu - Olivia Newton-John & ELO
No Reply At All - Genesis
Heartbreaker - Dionne Warwick
Alive Again - Chicago
I Only Want to Be With You - Dusty Springfield (or BCR)
Blue Collar Man - Styx
Love or Let Me Be Lonely - Friends of Distinction
Play the Game Tonight - Kansas
My Baby Loves Lovin' - White Plains
Signed, Sealed, Delivered - Peter Frampton
Bad - Michael Jackson
From Me To You - Beatles
Love Is Like a Rock - Donnie Iris

These songs are mostly not covered by other local stations, and could only enhance their library. Don't try to tell me these are tune-outs. Many if not most of them are the epitome of "Classic Hits," and are worthy of consideration by every station not playing them. The absence of songs like these is the reason we scream at you guys so much!

 

[michael hagerty]

Again, the "apparent loss of market share" is within the margin of error for that size market. I'd call it a flat book. A double-digit share is a fine place to be flat.

And the station with the broader playlist continues to drop.

 

[oldies76]

Again, the "apparent loss of market share" is within the margin of error for that size market. I'd call it a flat book. A double-digit share is a fine place to be flat.

And the station with the broader playlist continues to drop.

Anything you say.....

 

[michael hagerty]

Again, the "apparent loss of market share" is within the margin of error for that size market. I'd call it a flat book. A double-digit share is a fine place to be flat.

And the station with the broader playlist continues to drop.

Anything you say.....

What would you call 9.6-8.8-8.1-7.0 during the same period the tighter station went 4.8-8.2-11.0-10.5, Oldies?

 

[RIN3GUY]

And the station with the broader playlist continues to drop.

The playlist of the "robot station" (95.1 KMXL, MIKE FM) doesn't match even 10 percent of KJMK's (the "zombie station"). Also, a format with no DJs, in addition to being very impersonal, isn't much help during disasters like the Joplin tornado. So KJMK wins with a better format and great personality and promotions, not necessarily because of their tight playlist but rather in spite of it. KMXL's much broader playlist (1200-1500 songs), although considerably rockier and containing some '90s and 2000s, continues to be a major draw on the market share.

 

[michael hagerty]

And the station with the broader playlist continues to drop.

The playlist of the "robot station" (95.1 KMXL, MIKE FM) doesn't match even 10 percent of KJMK's (the "zombie station"). Also, a format with no DJs, in addition to being very impersonal, isn't much help during disasters like the Joplin tornado. So KJMK wins with a better format and great personality and promotions, not necessarily because of their tight playlist but rather in spite of it. KMXL's much broader playlist (1200-1500 songs), although considerably rockier and containing some '90s and 2000s, continues to be a major draw on the market share.

Mike-FM was doing fine 6 months after the tornado.

Here's the four-book trend for the entire market: http://ratings.****************/cgi-bin/rol.exe/arb534

And if KJMK has sent you to your mp3s despite its excellence, but a double-digit share of the audience hasn't been similarly affected, that suggests that:

1) The average listener has different priorities when it comes to the music on a station than you (as a music aficianado) do.

2) Even in a smaller market (Joplin is #233 out of only 284 rated markets in the country), if all else is right a tight list of the right songs won't hurt you.