AM Going away?

[KTN Corp]

The problem, from the FCC's standpoint, is that there's really no demand for the current AM band. That band can't be used for anything else. Cell phone providers don't want it, and it's completely worthless for broadband (unless the technology changes substantially over the years). So, there's no incentive to reclaim that band. About the only thing it could be good for would be to extend the amateur radio band directly above it, and that won't bring in any money.

Actually the AM band can just sit empty after the reclamation, sparing the FCC from another service to regulate. Interestingly enough, there is a thread in the Ham board about fake GPS signals. NDBs could be expanded upward into the AM band.

 

[clouseau]

Try making money with your AM in your "top 120 market" WITHOUT the FM translators and see how that works...

Wow, I should have asked for advise from you earlier. I didn't not realize what an expert on this subject you are and how foolish I am. Good thing we had those translators for all of the last 10 years.

Don't kid yourself into thinking the AM is carrying the load...

You know, you are probably right. I have no idea who listens to AM or FM or the internet. I just spend all my time outside the PO Box writing out all those deposit slips. I spend way too much time depositing the money that just appears to actually have done any research, analysis or thinking about it.

the FM exposure adds a lot.

I had no idea. I always paid that extra tower rent and maintenance and STL's and equipment as a charity thing more than anything else. You know, economic stimulus and stuff. Who knew there might be a benefit?

If a full power FM enters the market with another "Guy Talk" format you will most likely change formats...

If we get a second direct competitor, I'll let you know. So far there's only one other. Thanks for the insight.

Clouseau

 

[semoochie]

"The big radio companies are lobbying the FCC to eliminate the ownership limits that count AM stations as much as FM stations." The only thing I've heard is that Clear Channel and others want to count the full market limit, instead of breaking it down into separate AM/FM limits. For instance, the largest markets, that have a limit of 5 on one band and 3 on the other, would have 8 stations total, without regard to band.

 

[stan]

The ownership limits should be scaled back to one AM and one FM per market and see how they like that.

 

[MickeyD]

I would still rather see an expanded F.M. band be opened up to non-commercial broadcasting. Some of these A.M. stations once had F.M.s but sold them at some point in their histories. My reasoning comes from 2 places: 1. the chance to see more stations for colleges & high schools (now, running them properly is another thing entirely) and 2. the downward prices of A.M.s would allow them to eventually come into the hands of more people who could run them on a small budget. I would welcome such an opportunity, personally. So long as the current DMCA stands, I am uninterested in webcasting. Pressing PLAY on a computer or CD player does NOT constitute a "performance" by a musician!

Why would the FCC the AM band off the air? They want to take the OTA TV bandwidth so that they can sell it to wireless carriers. There is no other use for the AM band other than what is there now. Moving to another band would be a short lived "Rah-Rah" fest. The stations would be like having an FM station or a UHF TV station in the 50's and 60's. You are up there but no one can hear you. The FCC COULD open 87.7 Mhz where the old TV Channel 6 used to be. Then there is 87.9 (Channel 200) in the FCC's FM Table. There is one 10 watt station in CA that is silent and a translator with 28 watts on the channel. This is what people should be outraged about. This could have been included in the LPFM window next month and it is not. No new radios to purchase and very little interference.

 

[Mediafrog+]

The ownership limits should be scaled back to one AM and one FM per market and see how they like that.

A lot of format options on FM would disappear. And a huge number of AM stations would go out of business, with brokered time becoming the predominant business model for those that survive.

Welcome to NOT the 1960's.

 

[N1WVQ]

Why would the FCC the AM band off the air? They want to take the OTA TV bandwidth so that they can sell it to wireless carriers. There is no other use for the AM band other than what is there now. Moving to another band would be a short lived "Rah-Rah" fest. The stations would be like having an FM station or a UHF TV station in the 50's and 60's. You are up there but no one can hear you. The FCC COULD open 87.7 Mhz where the old TV Channel 6 used to be. Then there is 87.9 (Channel 200) in the FCC's FM Table. There is one 10 watt station in CA that is silent and a translator with 28 watts on the channel. This is what people should be outraged about. This could have been included in the LPFM window next month and it is not. No new radios to purchase and very little interference.

I don't understand your first sentence. As for OTA bandwidth, they're more interested in UHF rather than what would be VHF-Mid. As for expanding the F.M. band downward in frequency, why is this any different from 20-30 years ago when A.M. was expanded to 1700? It didn't take long for the radios to go to 1700 & I've even come across a few radios already that tune F.M. down to 76. It could be the start of worldwide expansion of F.M. to go from 76-108. The Japanese are already making radios to do this.

As for any other use for A.M., all I can think of to replace that portion of spectrum would be aircraft beacons (do they still use those?) or amateur, like what is happening with the former ship-shore C.W. frequencies. Amateurs have gained a band from 472-479kc..

Regarding 87.9MHz/Channel 200 & 87.7 (I suppose this would be 199), I have no objections to those becoming part of the F.M. band. As I've said, I think it should be expanded to 76 anyway.

Finally, let's remember digital TV does horribly on VHF-lo. That's why hardly anybody is using those channels unless they absolutely have to do so. The TV channels the F.C.C. wants to reclaim next are 31-51 to give to wireless. I can't see anyone salivating over 76-88. I think it was the F.C.C. but can't remember right now who said T.V. would be channels 14-30 and all networks in a community could be on 1 multiplexed channel. I guess they are talking about all main networks, not things like home shopping.

 

[little bird]

Some one who I won’t name let it be known to me that his research activities, just after the move to 2000 west loop south, revealed that ClearChannel was having the engineers, in a low key manner, prepare the AM’s (kbme and kprc) for sale.
That they haven’t been sold reveals to me they haven’t been able to find potential buyers.

 

[Mediafrog+]

I've even come across a few radios already that tune F.M. down to 76. It could be the start of worldwide expansion of F.M. to go from 76-108. The Japanese are already making radios to do this.

Since the Japanese FM band goes from 76 to 90 MHz, radios are sold that go up to 108 MHz to accommodate Japanese tourists traveling outside the country. So, yes, the technology for an expanded 76 to 108 MHz FM band is already in place.

 

[Mediafrog+]

Some one who I won’t name let it be known to me that his research activities, just after the move to 2000 west loop south, revealed that ClearChannel was having the engineers, in a low key manner, prepare the AM’s (kbme and kprc) for sale. That they haven’t been sold reveals to me they haven’t been able to find potential buyers.

I would think there would be buyers, but not at a price CC would be happy with. Station values have collapsed over the last decade. Still, I suspect there are a number of ethnic broadcasters that would love to get their hands on 790 and/or 950.

 

[MickeyD]

I don't understand your first sentence. As for OTA bandwidth, they're more interested in UHF rather than what would be VHF-Mid. As for expanding the F.M. band downward in frequency, why is this any different from 20-30 years ago when A.M. was expanded to 1700? It didn't take long for the radios to go to 1700 & I've even come across a few radios already that tune F.M. down to 76. It could be the start of worldwide expansion of F.M. to go from 76-108. The Japanese are already making radios to do this.

As for any other use for A.M., all I can think of to replace that portion of spectrum would be aircraft beacons (do they still use those?) or amateur, like what is happening with the former ship-shore C.W. frequencies. Amateurs have gained a band from 472-479kc..

Regarding 87.9MHz/Channel 200 & 87.7 (I suppose this would be 199), I have no objections to those becoming part of the F.M. band. As I've said, I think it should be expanded to 76 anyway.

Finally, let's remember digital TV does horribly on VHF-lo. That's why hardly anybody is using those channels unless they absolutely have to do so. The TV channels the F.C.C. wants to reclaim next are 31-51 to give to wireless. I can't see anyone salivating over 76-88. I think it was the F.C.C. but can't remember right now who said T.V. would be channels 14-30 and all networks in a community could be on 1 multiplexed channel. I guess they are talking about all main networks, not things like home shopping.

Why it is different is AM and FM are no longer the only games in town. Auto manufacturers are planning on making AM & FM receivers optional. Consumers aren't going to buy new radios in sufficient numbers to keep new stations in the 76-88 Mhz range in business long enough to make a difference. There is new technology out there and it does not include radio. Younger people aren't into radio and why should they be they can listen to what they want, when they want. If you are young and listen to radio today you are considered to be one of the poor kids.

The AM band will be abandoned unless the FCC allows stations to increase power and that won't happen there is enough noise on the band now and modern devices, such as LEDs and flourescent lighting, make reception impossible in some situations.

I have no idea what hams would do with the AM band. They already have a slice of it (160 meters) and there is little activity up there. (I am a ham too). How many hams are actually using the 400 Khz band?

The VHF controversy could have been eliminated if the US chose the same system the rest of the world uses. Putting many OTA TV stations on one channel will virtually eliminate HDTV because we are only talking about a 6 Mhz channel. They aren't giving the spectrum away to the wireless industry they are selling it. The original DTV plan was to gve back the UHF channels and revert back to the VHF channels but it was too costly and this was long before they realized that the VHF band had problems. The AM Band has no value to any other service except AM radio. HD radio on AM was a bust and making AM fully digital will involve a new receiver and new transmission equipment.

Whether a station is a commercial or non-commercial it still has to be run like a business. Let's look at the last LPFM window for example. 1300+ CPs issued around 800 still licensed and I am sure this will change when many of the licensees, that just pulled the plug and walked away from the stations, fail to renew their licenses.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Many receivers in use in the US and Canada actually have the electronics in them to receive 66-108 MHz - only the reception is disabled by a jumper wire (this makes it easier for the receiver factories to use one design in all world markets).

I am afraid only a very tiny percentage of radio enthusiasts would be capable of opening their radio, finding the correct jumper, and changing / moving it. Even a smaller percentage would have an ESD workbench and temperature controlled iron, along with the correct solder and flux to do the job, assuming they actually know proper soldering techniques. So a fair number of hobbyists making the jumper change would zap their radios.

Even newer designs may only require a firmware change, but that is even more problematic unless the whole radio is internet enabled - otherwise you would have to have the correct JTAG or other interface connector, and the emulator. Big hassle.

There are also legal issues with making all FM radios tune a wider band. I travelled to Italy one time and noted that its FM band ended at 104 MHz. The driver was a bit of a DX'er, and I asked about why the band ended at 104 MHz. He told me that is where their police band began, and it would be illegal to import any FM radio that could tune above 104 MHz. He tried to buy the portable I had brought with me!

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

I am afraid only a very tiny percentage of radio enthusiasts would be capable of opening their radio, finding the correct jumper, and changing / moving it. Even a smaller percentage would have an ESD workbench and temperature controlled iron, along with the correct solder and flux to do the job, assuming they actually know proper soldering techniques. So a fair number of hobbyists making the jumper change would zap their radios.

Those of us who own a soldering iron of any sort, much less one of the specialized models, know that it is getting next to impossible to find the various supplies and accessories to restock your toolbox so you can solder something.

You couldn't build much of an audience based the the number of people who can modify a receiver.

 

[davideduardo]

I travelled to Italy one time and noted that its FM band ended at 104 MHz. The driver was a bit of a DX'er, and I asked about why the band ended at 104 MHz. He told me that is where their police band began, and it would be illegal to import any FM radio that could tune above 104 MHz. He tried to buy the portable I had brought with me!

That must have been a long time ago... in the Rome area alone, there are 24 FMs above 104.00.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Early 70's - I guess Italy couldn't stop the influx of illegal FM radios!

 

[Silkie]

Haaa - great minds think alike.

 

[sino]

That must have been a long time ago... in the Rome area alone, there are 24 FMs above 104.00.

Wow, really, 24 FMs above 104.00 around Rome? Oh the Italians... No wonder, three quarters of the Italians are listening to radio frequently. Found here: http://www.statista.com/topics/1330/radio/

 

[johndavis]

Ancient Modulation doesn't need revitalization. Radio is like real estate: better addresses cost more.

If everyone quits patronizing Main Street because everyone moved out to the suburbs, nobody is going to give a shop owner on Main Street a free piece of property in suburbia.

However, once the values on Main have declined enough, immigrants will take over the urban core with their own businesses catering to their needs - not unlike what's happened to AM, where the class C and D frequencies are mostly foreign language formats.

Heck, even the one FM translator fed by an AM we have has kept its brokered format so far, which is a pretty realistic use of its coverage area. You're not going to take on 100KW from Senior Road with 250 watts, but you can sure cover the Desi population in SW Houston and Sugar Land with it.

Market forces are taking care of Ancient Modulation just fine. Leave it alone.

 

[davideduardo]

Wow, really, 24 FMs above 104.00 around Rome? Oh the Italians... No wonder, three quarters of the Italians are listening to radio frequently.

This happens in many places. Quito, Ecuador has about 60 FMs, and they use two channel spacing... 95.1, 95.5, 95.7, 96.1.

Buenos Aires greater metro has well over 100 stations, not including pirates (which add another hundred or so). There are federally licensed full coverage stations, and then Province-licensed stations and municipality licensed stations. Many frequencies have multiple stations on them around the very large metro of 17 million.

When I programmed one of the major FM stations (100 kw at 300 meters) we had a team in a van that would drive around looking for Pirates on or next to our frequency and they would "persuade" the pirate to find somewhere else on the band to operate.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

This happens in many places. Quito, Ecuador has about 60 FMs, and they use two channel spacing... 95.1, 95.5, 95.7, 96.1.

Buenos Aires greater metro has well over 100 stations, not including pirates (which add another hundred or so). There are federally licensed full coverage stations, and then Province-licensed stations and municipality licensed stations. Many frequencies have multiple stations on them around the very large metro of 17 million.

When I programmed one of the major FM stations (100 kw at 300 meters) we had a team in a van that would drive around looking for Pirates on or next to our frequency and they would "persuade" the pirate to find somewhere else on the band to operate.

One thing is for sure - I bet the audience is better served by having more formats available. Unlike the US where bigotry against those over 55 rules, corporations dictate the same bland lawyer approved formats over and over again, and brokered stations serve almost nobody but a very small demographic that happens to have enough money to afford air time. Yeah - I'm a little cynical about radio right now.