WBAI Struggles

[George Jetson]

The problem is that HD coverage is limited, as you say. But you also mention that the HD would be usable in the City, but not the suburbs. But since most HD installs are in cars, and the historically documented usage radio in cars the City and the Boroughs is very very low, there is not going to be much of an audience because there just are not many home and workplace HD radios.

If that audience will not donate to the station, why would they spend money for an HD radio, even if they could find one.

You said nobody donates and yet the station has survived on donations for many years. I don't know the entire history but I hear them say 50 years on the air. This is where good programming comes into play.
If listeners like the program enough, they will do anything they can to hear it. Just like with cable TV and pay radio. Programs have to be really good though. That's up to the station management and the listeners. The initial costs for the IBOC transmitter and equipment could be a problem and as I have stated many times, I dislike IBOC anyway. If IBOC would serve any purpose though, this could be one example. Many stations already use their IBOC channels for less popular programming, maybe not with good results but the WBAI format is rather unique. Again, the station has to decide where to go on this, return to the past and shrink or change and try to reach out to more listeners.

 

[davideduardo]

You said nobody donates and yet the station has survived on donations for many years. I don't know the entire history but I hear them say 50 years on the air.

But in the last few years, they have not covered expenses with donations, and have had to cut staff, even after getting what available funds Pacifica HQ could send. With HD, they would have even fewer donations as listenership would go from minimal to nearly none.

If listeners like the program enough, they will do anything they can to hear it.

WBaI is reaching just over 100 k persons a week where other NYC Class B stations with the same facility reach 3 to 4 million. Obviously, there are not enough people who like the programming, and they don't now have the money to create it... add in the combative nature of their management structure, and you have the reasons why they can't afford to sustain a viable operation in NYC.

 

[WNTIRadio]

George said...

"Fm's in the past that were using the original WTC site had awesome signal and were very happy."

This quote tells me that you really don't know what you're talking about engineering wise. The FM's that were up there HATED the signal from WTC. The master antenna was too low on the mast, causing severe drop outs in lower Manhattan, lots of picket fencing and a lack of signal to the north.

It was a less than optimal site for FM. TV was much higher up on the mast, so it fared somewhat better.

WBAI also can't "put a tall tower in NJ". They are stuck exactly where they are because of all the other puzzle pieces (stations) surrounding it. Please read up on the FCC spacing rules and short spacing before the next post about arbitrarily moving radio stations around.

Sorry to be rude, but we (the pros on the board) keep explaining this to you and you continue to ignore it like we're making it up or it doesn't matter in the case of WBAI.

 

[George Jetson]

New tower is different.

George said...

"Fm's in the past that were using the original WTC site had awesome signal and were very happy."

This quote tells me that you really don't know what you're talking about engineering wise. The FM's that were up there HATED the signal from WTC. The master antenna was too low on the mast, causing severe drop outs in lower Manhattan, lots of picket fencing and a lack of signal to the north.

It was a less than optimal site for FM. TV was much higher up on the mast, so it fared somewhat better.

WBAI also can't "put a tall tower in NJ". They are stuck exactly where they are because of all the other puzzle pieces (stations) surrounding it. Please read up on the FCC spacing rules and short spacing before the next post about arbitrarily moving radio stations around.

Sorry to be rude, but we (the pros on the board) keep explaining this to you and you continue to ignore it like we're making it up or it doesn't matter in the case of WBAI.

No need for apology, the new tower is shaped differently so just maybe this won't happen again. Reminder, I have no horses in this race. I don't have the time to evaluate the WBAI antenna situation for free. I will continue my focus on programming though as this remains top priority. I do have a great deal of experience in radio and related fields though so just be patient here because you have no idea of my past or the reasons why I don't want to get upset of offend anyone here., I was cleaning my room and found in a distant corner the phone number of a talk show host that warned in advance Bill Cooper. I credit him for saving my life. Sorry.........

 

[George Jetson]

They need to get rid of all that old out dated loot they sell on air. DVDs and CDs and stuff, all the old format that failed. It could be too late because it's costing them listeners big time. I was listening today and too much bragging about how long they been on the air and the same old merry go 'round. Like a broken record. Maybe they need to travel more and experience in person a different way of life and government. Sort of like Obama bringing in Joe Biden as the 'token white guy” so he could get some “street creds”. Anyway, forget that, maybe Biden has a crush on Hillary so it's more of the same, past mistakes repeated. Isn't that the definition of insanity? How about they liquidate that old stock and find some fresh loot they can sell for EVEN MORE MONEY? The old blame game and promoting or complaining about 'isms is so old and out dated. It's sad because the on air talent seems so frantic and stressed over this. The good doctor gets paid to cure people, not remind them of how sick they are. Native Americans would be burning the sage by now. I still think there is hope. Like a sweat lodge, they are sweating out the toxins right now. The cleanest, purest healthiest waters flow from the TOP of the mountain.

 

[davideduardo]

I do have a great deal of experience in radio...

Kudos. You hide it well.

 

[davideduardo]

The cleanest, purest healthiest waters flow from the TOP of the mountain.

Put the cork back in and go to sleep.

 

[billrecto]

No need for apology, the new tower is shaped differently so just maybe this won't happen again. Reminder, I have no horses in this race. I don't have the time to evaluate the WBAI antenna situation for free. I will continue my focus on programming though as this remains top priority. I do have a great deal of experience in radio and related fields though so just be patient here because you have no idea of my past or the reasons why I don't want to get upset of offend anyone here., I was cleaning my room and found in a distant corner the phone number of a talk show host that warned in advance Bill Cooper. I credit him for saving my life. Sorry.........

Forget it you can't reason with Pacifica Radio. Look at San Francisco's KPFA they keep yelling conspiracies during donor time some of the talent on the Pacifica O&O keep on yelling that "Obama, DNC and MSNBC is not Left wing enough" or "PBS and NPR is running a conspiracy." The problem here is that Pacifica is more worried with holding on to an audience that lives in certain districts of Oakland, Berkeley and San Francisco were the number of registered voters ID themselves as Occupy or Green Party instead of getting the DNC in the door as the negotiating chip to expand the audience. Forget it Let Pacifica sell KPFA 94.1 to Cumulus and put KNBR for FM at 94.1. Look Pacifica in the Bay Area also owns KPFB-FM as a Translator and KFCF-FM Fresno. Pacifica should sell WBAI-FM to Cumulus for 770 AM make WABC go to FM this time. But then again like in other posts it would have been nice if Pacifica sold all its O&O's and simply run as a distributor for Free Speech TV. But then again Pacifica does not understand that PBS and NPR aims for the Center, Moderate, Independent and Objective audience. Also then again San Francisco is not really a far left DMA as some Pundits have claimed, Look How Come when I look at the Ratings for San Francisco KQED-FM is the Top NPR News/talk station in the DMA, KCBS is a top 5 Station for all-news radio in the DMA and KALW-FM (Secondary NPR Station for San Francisco) is sometimes tied with right wing KSFO and KKSF-AM. That tells me Occupy and Green Party is not big here.

 

[George Jetson]

The Empire State Building was constructed at a time when radio was king. People listened to AM radio and there was no TV, at least not inside homes. New Jersey was still mostly rural and the AM stations were in New Jersey wetlands because the salt content in the ground water gave an excellent ground wave component in the AM signal. The result was an awesome signal and very good DX at night as there were few stations sharing frequencies at the time.
Today we see NYC and other cities being gentrified, the lower and middle class being forced out of Manhattan and moving into the outer boroughs and surrounding states. I don't need to dwell on the Rudy and Bloomberg policy and the changes in the NYPD. After receiving 3 too many bogus parking tickets I knew something was wrong and began my boycott of the city. (Yes, I fought those tickets and won but still had to pay court costs). Also as mentioned before, I also had other reasons to stay out of NYC. Bloomberg radio now serves the needs of the wealthy elite that can afford to live in Manhattan.
Growing up I spent a good part of my early adult life driving the car and protecting some people that had business dealings in the city. I spent many long hours in that car listening to radio in the city. I do remember some stations fading in and out, choppy signal and all but it wasn't that bad. I also had the same problem in New Jersey with stations broadcasting from the Empire site.
Empire is an awesome location and even by today's standards remains a good location for NYC local radio but in New Jersey the signal still has many fade out and weak areas. Stations on the WTC site came in better in New Jersey. When WTC was lost, many TV and radio stations had to use other sites and once again, the audience in New Jersey was affected. Now I know I am talking on the NYC message board section and so folks here will be more concerned with the NYC audience it seems but we cannot forget that the NYC market does in fact reach many parts of New Jersey.
Radio stations have to keep up with trends and need to follow their audience or face losing them. Those that remain on the Empire site will be missing the benefits of reaching out everywhere with the new tower at WTC.
As for WBAI, I can pick up the signal very well in most of New Jersey out to about 60 miles from the city. Of course this depends on the radio and antenna. I really have no complaints about it but improvements could still be made and signal will be stronger and clearer in the fringe areas and inside homes and buildings.
I keep thinking Pacifica should just sell WBAI and purchase WMCA 570 AM and move the programming there. WMCA wouldn't cost much and being on AM might bring in more listeners interested in talk, politics and eclectic music. 570 does have problems, interference from dimmer switches, cell phone chargers and degraded signal from atmospheric changes. It would still sound good in the city though and would be better than moving the program to IBOC.
I do understand the close channel spacings and interference concerns with moving the WBAI antenna closer to New Jersey. Maybe it's stupid and can't or shouldn't be done. I would rather hear about how this could be done instead. What would life be without difficulty? Everybody seems to be an expert here so why isn't everybody posting solutions? Too difficult maybe? My attitude? No such thing as “can't”. Crazy? Stupid? I think not. There is always a way.
Instead of picking on my comments, it would be helpful and constructive if someone could post a signal coverage map showing the signal patterns with WBAI and the adjacent channels. Yes, I know about the FCC site but maybe someone has this map already put together.

 

[George Jetson]

Forget it you can't reason with Pacifica Radio. Look at San Francisco's KPFA they keep yelling conspiracies during donor time some of the talent on the Pacifica O&O keep on yelling that "Obama, DNC and MSNBC is not Left wing enough" or "PBS and NPR is running a conspiracy." [/B][/B][/B]

I don't mind the ethnic based programming, it fills and need and they do a good job with most if it. The divisive far left attitude though is the EXACT REASON why OCCUPY FAILED. It started out with a common cause, people got together but when it got big they suddenly introduced too many leftist and divisive causes. This created in-fighting and confusion. Those from the original Tea Party, End the Fed and 911 Truthers were driven out. We saw the Tea Party destroyed much the same way when the plastic “Tea Party Express” was created and filled with Neocons. This made the public very confused and forever ruined the Tea Party good name. The Left and the media also use this new plastic cover as a way to attack and embarrass the entire Tea Party.
I just try to be optimistic here. I hesitated to offer any help or financial support to WBAI because I disliked their snobby attitude. Perhaps now, with the situation there humbling people, they could be open to new ideas and bring the station into a new age where people can unite under a common cause and move forward with new ideas and programming. The real question is will Pacifica get the message?
I do continue to listen to WBAI and I do enjoy the music programming and educational broadcasts. The worst of it only happens during fund raising but as stated before, perhaps this will fade and be improved with an upgrade.

 

[SithKidd420]

I do continue to listen to WBAI.

Atleast someone is listening.

 

[SithKidd420]

http://www.current.org/2013/10/wbai-interim-p-d-quits-over-fundraising-programming/

 

[George Jetson]

Atleast someone is listening.

It's not easy though. THE GARY NULL SHOW all day. http://wbai.org/program.php?program=29
He's good and all, just a bit much for me. If they like show like this they could invite Dr Ronald Hoffman to join in. He was on 6 nights a week on WOR but now he's only on Saturday. http://www.drhoffman.com/ Music show last night was ok but please don't keep playing different versions of the same song in a set like that. May have been the night before. Haloween song. Screamin Jay Hawkins - I Put A Spell On You http://youtu.be/orNpH6iyokI

 

[davideduardo]

I don't mind the ethnic based programming, it fills and need and they do a good job with most if it.

Yeah, right. Pacifica is great at that.

KPFK in LA had, for years, a Spanish language program about affairs in Central America. Every time I listened I heard the hosts calling for the assassination of the government, civic and business leaders in places like Honduras and El Salvador.

There is not a "need" for calls to violence and suggesting murder as a solution is hardly a "good job" either.

 

[davideduardo]

The Empire State Building was constructed at a time when radio was king. People listened to AM radio and there was no TV, at least not inside homes. New Jersey was still mostly rural and the AM stations were in New Jersey wetlands because the salt content in the ground water gave an excellent ground wave component in the AM signal.

Actually, stations went out to the Jersey meadowlands because they were directional and needed to be to the far west of the market. The fact that they found brackish wetlands was perhaps a benefit, but it was not why stations located there.

WOR located at its orignal site because they wanted to use their directional operation to serve both NY and Philly... a fact they touted in dozens and dozens of cover ads in Broadcasting.

Empire is an awesome location and even by today's standards remains a good location for NYC local radio but in New Jersey the signal still has many fade out and weak areas.

Only part of New Jersey is part of the New York Metro Survey Area. That part is best served by the ESB site, as it truly "ropes in" nearly all of the MSA... except for the parts of eastern Suffolk County, definitely in the MSA, but well beyond the usable FM contours from the ESB.

Stations on the WTC site came in better in New Jersey. When WTC was lost, many TV and radio stations had to use other sites and once again, the audience in New Jersey was affected.

It may be that some stations lost some non-MSA coverage of areas in New Jersey (as mentioned, Ocean County being one example) but as was already posted, the radio stations that had to be on the WTC masts hated it. In any case, the WTC was not home to many FMs... a couple of non-coms and WPAT. Because of the added height, they had lower power. Combined with the low position on the mast and rooftop horizon blockage, they were not as strong in the dense buildings on Manhattan... not a good thing.

Radio stations have to keep up with trends and need to follow their audience or face losing them. Those that remain on the Empire site will be missing the benefits of reaching out everywhere with the new tower at WTC.

The WTC site requires ERP reductions due to height, and most stations will not go for that, particularly since they will loose out in the dense areas nearby in NY and the Boroughs where power is needed to penetrate. Add to that significant loss of coverage in the MSA counties in NE NJ, the counties in NY state north of the City and in Fairfield West in CT, and most FMs will skip that opportunity to lose audience.

As for WBAI, I can pick up the signal very well in most of New Jersey out to about 60 miles from the city. Of course this depends on the radio and antenna. I really have no complaints about it but improvements could still be made and signal will be stronger and clearer in the fringe areas and inside homes and buildings.

A B is a B is a B. WTC: higher HAAT, lower ERP, less near field building penetration. In the far field, the usable contour will not move outwards.

I keep thinking Pacifica should just sell WBAI and purchase WMCA 570 AM and move the programming there. WMCA wouldn't cost much and being on AM might bring in more listeners interested in talk, politics and eclectic music.

Being on AM will just mean less listeners as the usage of the band declines. In any case, Salem loves WMCA and is not going to give up its 560 / 570 pair in the NY / NJ / Philadelphia corridor.

I do understand the close channel spacings and interference concerns with moving the WBAI antenna closer to New Jersey. Maybe it's stupid and can't or shouldn't be done. I would rather hear about how this could be done instead. What would life be without difficulty? Everybody seems to be an expert here so why isn't everybody posting solutions? Too difficult maybe? My attitude? No such thing as “can't”. Crazy? Stupid? I think not. There is always a way.

Before finding a way, such as downgading to a B1, ask "why take a $60 million dollar stick and make it into a $15 million dollar stick?"

 

[George Jetson]

Improvements made at WBAI, Keep Up the Good Work!

WBAI is sounding much better today. I like it and you will too. I invite you to give it a listen. They are playing fine music right now and earlier had talk program about whistle blowers as I had mentioned on a nearby thread. They are also taking calls from listeners.
In just 3 days they took my advice and now more money is coming in. They just announced that they will be able to stop asking for funds soon and someone donated a Bob Dylan guitar that will be auctioned off and the money used to pay the bills and debts.
Feel free to message me if your station needs to be turned around or improved. I don't work cheap or for free, for me WBAI was a challenge and everyone here said it was a lost cause so maybe I proved something here. They made these changes without spending any extra money or changing staff. In time, who knows, they can buy the Empire state building and maybe some more stations too if they do it right. The New York market has a lot of potential, like a fine sports car, with the right driver, it can win the race.

 

[George Jetson]

These problems are common.

Actually, stations went out to the Jersey meadowlands because they were directional and needed to be to the far west of the market. The fact that they found brackish wetlands was perhaps a benefit, but it was not why stations located there.

The AM signal with it's longer wave can get into a around buildings better than FM and the ground wave alone with some limited sky wave can get over hills and obstructions.

WOR located at its orignal site because they wanted to use their directional operation to serve both NY and Philly... a fact they touted in dozens and dozens of cover ads in Broadcasting.

The WOR signal is weak in the Southern half of New Jersey, even in a car radio on open road.

Only part of New Jersey is part of the New York Metro Survey Area. That part is best served by the ESB site, as it truly "ropes in" nearly all of the MSA... except for the parts of eastern Suffolk County, definitely in the MSA, but well beyond the usable FM contours from the ESB.

This part of New Jersey is the most heavily populated and keeps moving south every day.

It may be that some stations lost some non-MSA coverage of areas in New Jersey (as mentioned, Ocean County being one example) but as was already posted, the radio stations that had to be on the WTC masts hated it. In any case, the WTC was not home to many FMs... a couple of non-coms and WPAT. Because of the added height, they had lower power. Combined with the low position on the mast and rooftop horizon blockage, they were not as strong in the dense buildings on Manhattan... not a good thing.

Using an AM station would easily solve that problem.

The WTC site requires ERP reductions due to height, and most stations will not go for that, particularly since they will loose out in the dense areas nearby in NY and the Boroughs where power is needed to penetrate. Add to that significant loss of coverage in the MSA counties in NE NJ, the counties in NY state north of the City and in Fairfield West in CT, and most FMs will skip that opportunity to lose audience.

Many stations have similar problem. It's very crowded here and they are afraid to risk using the taller tower. That's why they make custom antennas.

A B is a B is a B. WTC: higher HAAT, lower ERP, less near field building penetration. In the far field, the usable contour will not move outwards.

There would be a difference in height and location but how much power would they lose and how badly would it affect the signal inside buildings? This might deserve further study. Do you know of any stations that did this and had problems after?

Being on AM will just mean less listeners as the usage of the band declines. In any case, Salem loves WMCA and is not going to give up its 560 / 570 pair in the NY / NJ / Philadelphia corridor.

Again, this depends on the programming, news and talk stations on AM still get pretty good ratings. If they played less commercials, they would get much better ratings. For a noncom with a listener friendly format this could be a plus.

Before finding a way, such as downgading to a B1, ask "why take a $60 million dollar stick and make it into a $15 million dollar stick?"

They may get enough money this time, with the programming improvements to buy another station, perhaps in Philly.

 

[George Jetson]

Yeah, right. Pacifica is great at that.

KPFK in LA had, for years, a Spanish language program about affairs in Central America. Every time I listened I heard the hosts calling for the assassination of the government, civic and business leaders in places like Honduras and El Salvador.

There is not a "need" for calls to violence and suggesting murder as a solution is hardly a "good job" either.

This is a very serious accusation and perhaps a violation of the law. What program was this? Do you have any proof to support this claim? Why didn't you notify Pacifica about this? What was the exact situation in Central America at the time? It could be that the program you mentioned is no longer on the air so this could be a mute point.
It would be easier though, for me at least if they could keep English language programs or at least include some English as a bilingual program so everyone could enjoy and listen to it. This also would be helpful to persons wanting to learn both or either languages. Now that the station is sounding better, I plan to listen more often.

 

[davideduardo]

The AM signal with it's longer wave can get into a around buildings better than FM and the ground wave alone with some limited sky wave can get over hills and obstructions.

OK, I'm at the table, so I'll keep playing.

AM signals do not "go around" buildings. And they travel with the contours of land, like fog, while FM travels like a light beam... and is stopped by obstructions.

The WOR signal is weak in the Southern half of New Jersey, even in a car radio on open road.

I specifically said that when WOR built the original NJ site, they wished to cover both NY and Philly, and for years ran cover ads in Broadcasting bragging about it. Of course, that was in the 30's.

This part of New Jersey is the most heavily populated and keeps moving south every day.

So what? Those areas are not in the New York MSA, and don't have help NYC stations in sales.

Using an AM station would easily solve that problem.

No, it would not. Because most people under 55 don't use AM, and sales is generated by 18-49 and 25 listenership (or some subset). Taking anything from FM to AM is not going to produce nice results.

Many stations have similar problem. It's very crowded here and they are afraid to risk using the taller tower. That's why they make custom antennas.

The ESB, as you have been told, uses a master panel antenna. It can not be customized within the realms of practicality. The WTC antenna is also supposed to be a master antenna, and practicality (meaning $$, time and effort) dictates that it will not be customized for a single station.

There would be a difference in height and location but how much power would they lose and how badly would it affect the signal inside buildings? This might deserve further study. Do you know of any stations that did this and had problems after?

Increase height, decrease ERP. Less power, harder penetration. I personally specified the moving of a station from a 570 watt facility at greater height to 6 kw at conforming class A height, and the ratings trippled with the same format. At 570 watts, the signal looked good on paper, but it could not get good reception anywhere.

Again, this depends on the programming, news and talk stations on AM still get pretty good ratings. If they played less commercials, they would get much better ratings.

Wrong. Some AMs with huge signals and the premium programming get good ratings. Most have neither good signals nor good ratings. And all have the issue of aging listener bases, no matter what they program.

They may get enough money this time, with the programming improvements to buy another station, perhaps in Philly.

They are out of money everywhere. Pacifica HQ has no backup money, and the stations in SF, Houston, DC and LA as well as NY have made major cutbacks. They are not going to buy anything. They may have to sell something to keep the organization afloat, and they have two valuable commercial licenses, one of them being WBAI. But they also have a dysfunctional board of directors which is the root of the problems; your postings qualify you to be a star member of that board.

 

[luperm]

Thanks for the morning laugh! You made my day.