Westwood One adds new 24/7 Good Time Oldies format to replace Scott Shannon's TOC

[davideduardo]

But they have been on the air for over two years now, maybe longer. So whatever they are playing (and it's classic hits) it's working and myself and many others are satisfied.

If it is working, why did they yank the second AM that it used to simulcast with and make it into an also-ran talk format?

 

[TheBigA]

Yes, we do understand how it works. Understanding how it works doesn't mean that we like how it works. You are chasing people away from broadcast radio. You are killing the goose that laid the golden eggs.

The people who are leaving are being replaced by other people. The numbers are going up. You don't like the facts, so you attack the methodology. But the fact is the numbers are going up.

The people in radio don't like the methodology, but it's all we've got.

 

[TheBigA]

Sounds like A cannot even appreciate the effort a small market station can make to its listeners. I hope it stays classic hits for the next 5-10 years. And by switching formats, it would mean job losses. Negative type aren't you?

I'm a realist. I work in this business, I know the rules, and this station is in trouble.

When it comes to radio finances, it has nothing to do with agenda. I'd love for stations to be able to play anything they want and not worry about where the money comes from. That's not the world we live in.

 

[Avid Listener]

OK, here's a challenge. Can anyone who provides those automatic knee-jerk reactions to appeals to the suits who run radio to loosen up the playlists on classic hits stations just a little bit provide the names or call letters of any station that was a top-rated, major success that went into the toilet ratings wise just because they added one or two slightly obscure songs per day? I'm not talking about turning into an "all obscure deep cuts all the time" format. I'm just talking about mixing in two songs that only made in the bottom half of the Top 40 even though other songs by the same acts made it to the top 5 and are staple songs on the tight playlists.

This isn't about stations that engaged in multiple changes, including changing DJs and imaging, at the same time as adding two "semi-hits" a day. If that's the case, it could be the changing of the DJs or imaging. And, to prove that it was adding the two whole songs per day that caused the ratings to plummet, this cannot have happened at a time when another station in the market didn't do a sudden format change that siphoned away the first station's listeners. I'm only talking about a station whose ratings collapsed only because they added two semi-hits per day.

 

[TheBigA]

OK, here's a challenge. Can anyone who provides those automatic knee-jerk reactions to appeals to the suits who run radio to loosen up the playlists on classic hits stations just a little bit provide the names or call letters of any station that was a top-rated, major success that went into the toilet ratings wise just because they added one or two slightly obscure songs per day?

You never screw around with success. If you're getting top ratings, there's no need to loosen playlists. The best way to get fired is to screw around with a top-rated station.

However, there are loads of examples of stations that improved by tightening up their list. WNEW-FM was getting average ratings as a free form FM station in 1968. Then it tightened up its playlist in 1971, and the numbers got better. Jonathan Schwartz wasn't allowed to play Sinatra any more. Roscoe couldn't play Muddy Waters or Elmore James. That brought the numbers up a bit. Then they went AOR, cut the playlist, focused on songs rather than album tracks, and ultimately became a Top 10 station.

What I've been asking for is an example of a station that got great ratings by playing a wider, deeper playlist. So far, I haven't seen one.

 

[TheFonz]

Old Age Sucks

I'm getting in at the end of this conversation, so maybe my post will be irrelavant. If you are age 55+ and you want to hear songs on the radio today that you heard "back in the day", radio couldn't care less. If a song made the Top 10 in 1967, it just doesn't matter. Advertisers (and therefore commercial radio) don't need you as a listener. Through "testing" (???) radio has decided which songs were kept alive over the years. Since these are the only "oldies" or "classic" songs that younger listeners have ever heard, these are the only songs radio will play over and over.

 

[oldies76]

If it is working, why did they yank the second AM that it used to simulcast with and make it into an also-ran talk format?

AM 690 was eliminated most likely due to the fact that they added FM 94.7 in Pueblo. That leaves 1530 in Colorado Springs and 94.7 in Pueblo. I cannot receive 94.7 here in the Springs, so I listen to 1530. The word is that they trying to get another FM frequency in Colorado Springs, so possibly 1530 might be eliminated. Supposedly it can take 1-2 years to get approval for an FM acquisition.

So, the most logical answer would be that two freqs are not needed in Pueblo, so 690 was converted to talk / sports.

Big A says the I-25 radio network, KCMN is in trouble. I do not see how. The music is fabulous, seriously. And people do listen, especially on an FM frequency. Driving to work this morning 7:35am, heard 1969's "Cherry Hill Park". Of course, KRTH would never dare to touch it, even though it's a wonderful song, or in more appropriate words...a "lost hit".

 

[oldies76]

Through "testing" (???) radio has decided which songs were kept alive over the years. Since these are the only "oldies" or "classic" songs that younger listeners have ever heard, these are the only songs radio will play over and over.

Yet, these same listeners (by this approach today by classic hits radio) will never know that great songs such as "Use Me" or "Fire Lake" or "Tie a Yellow Ribbon..." or even "Please Don't Go" by KC, even existed, since radio won't touch them.

Instead they'll hear "Lean On Me" , "Against the Wind", "Knock Three Times" or "That's the Way I Like It" numerous times.

 

[oldies76]

What I've been asking for is an example of a station that got great ratings by playing a wider, deeper playlist. So far, I haven't seen one.

Forget the big cities, check out small town radio, they are out there. Including Canada, there are 526 Classic Hits stations and 625 Oldies stations, 1151 total. I would bet that lots of them have nice ratings based on larger playlists.

http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/finder?format=old&s=R&sr=Y

Also check out 1977-1985 KRTH, before Phillips took over and decimated the playlist.

 

[oldies76]

I think there should be pay phones on every corner again, but history has shown the pay phone business no longer works - just like it has shown us about the radio station with the huge library.

Let's see.....payphones have only been around since 1889, with a peak in 1995 or so. Only the "recent" mobile phone takeover has taken that away, otherwise they'd still be around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payphone

As for radio, huge library failures mainly apply to the bigger stations in cities, not small towns. Remember as recent as 1987, KRTH had an immense library and CBS-FM just a couple years ago, before the 60's were slashed. WOGL also has a large library, based on the fact they recently did a huge specialty on #1 songs, which were all played in alpha order (1960-1989), so Walters, they are out there. You just need to find them as well.

Even stations like WLNG, Superhits 106, Hippie radio in Tenn, AM 950 Denver, I-25 radio network and countless others, all have large libraries, without the frequent repetition heard in large cities.

 

[firepoint525]

Fine. Show me a station with a better signal that will respond to listener calls wanting to hear non-hit songs in any format.
Getting a station like this to do what you want isn't going to help this small station grow, hire more staff, and maybe look into improving the signal. So in that way, it's not a victory for radio, but rather just for you.

Did it ever occur to you, that maybe just maybe, listeners don't really give a damn about all this corporate b.s.? There is a helluva lot more to it than just "making a buck," but you wouldn't know that, because you wouldn't know good quality radio if it bit you in the ass! Maybe, just maybe, it is enough JUST to be profitable, which apparently they are, because they have now been around for a little over two years now. The hair-triggers over at Cumulus would have changed formats half a dozen times in that same time frame!

They rail quite heavily against all this corporate b.s., and I say more power to 'em! There is a helluva lot more to radio than just those big corporate behemoths that try to bully all the little guys into no longer existing! Maybe it is BECAUSE they are a smaller signal that they can play a "lesser" hit. And calling it a "non-hit" is just revisionist history. Worse than that, it is actually a LIE. That you think the Cyrkle were "one-hit wonders" tells me all that I need to know about you.

 

[firepoint525]

There have been hundreds of stations just like this one that play the bigger list and obscure lost songs, and they never succeed, regardless of the signal, the market, the ownership, the budget, the marketing, or any other excuse. We have 40 years of documentation on this. I'm talking about real world radio stations, not surveys or sampling. This particular station is just another example of a station that's forced to operate on a shoestring because they can't attract the advertising necessary to grow. Just like the one you like in Colorado Springs.

It is actually YOU who does not understand! Who ever said that we wanted to hear our favorites played over some big huge commercial corporate signal? One of the best stations in my area for playing the classic tunes right now is a non-comm. They periodically run ads over their station looking for volunteer announcers to come in and cover some shifts. I would do it, except that I am busy, and I live an hour away from that station, and I can only pick them up when I am on that side of town. Even so, I still have a preset on the car radio for them, because corporate radio has become so bad lately that there are not even enough stations with formats that I would listen to, to fill up all the available presets that I have.

We think OUTSIDE the box. If corporate commercial radio can no longer play our faves, then we just give them the "middle-finger salute," and find stations that CAN please us!

 

[firepoint525]

One day, listeners to this station will wake up, and it'll be sold to a religious organization.

Actually, it was bought FROM a religious organization! But why do you keep railing AGAINST stations that are apparently successful? If you are such a big believer in the capitalist corporate system of making all the money that you can (which is apparently ALL that you understand), then why are you so dead-set against a little competition out there? Especially since all you brain-dead corporate know-it-alls vacated the format YEARS ago, leaving us to fend for ourselves on lesser signals, rimshots, and non-comms! Hell, corporate radio is even afraid of LPFMs! I have personal experience with helping an LPFM get on the air a few years back, and corporate's reaction to it reminded me of an elephant that is afraid of a mouse!

The only "waking up" that anyone will do is to the realization that corporate behemoths only exist to serve themselves and maybe their stockholders, but not the listeners.

Since corporate does not even HAVE a "classic hits" format any longer (at least, not here in what was supposedly "music city"), you really don't have a dog in this hunt, anyway. You gave up on us YEARS ago. Don't blame us for seeking entertainment elsewhere.

 

[firepoint525]

You may want to count again - more like several of us agreeing on everything - and it is those of us actually in the business. Then there are the listeners group who all agree that the people in the business are all wrong, and you are one of them. So you agree with the people not in the business and I agree with those in the business. Your debating skills are what should be questioned, not mine.
Why don't you tell us what business you are in so we can tell you what is wrong with it and how to fix it?

When you actually DEVELOP some debating skills, then we will discuss them. Saying "me, too" to everything that David says is NOT "debating." It is just "me-too-ism." Big fat hairy deal. So you can cut and paste his stats. But you can't even get them right. Because your stats change every day, and then change back the next. All you have got are juvenile retorts. That is NOT "debating."

I have worked in radio for 14 years, and it has been my experience that radio station GMs and owners have the following traits in common:

1) They absolutely WORSHIP money. It is their god. (little g) This one is absolutely NON-debatable.

2) They are narcissists.

3) They are egomaniacs.

4) They are perfectionists.

5) They won't listen to ANYONE who tries to tell them that they are wrong about anything, because they have a "my way or the highway" attitude. Even a congressman would come nearer to giving you a direct answer to a question than any egomaniacal narcissistic radio exec EVER would. (We have seen this in the way that "they" try to talk down to us on this board, and tell us that "we don't know anything" and try to "school" us.)

6) They are workaholics, and they work their lives away, and they expect their staff to do and be the same, only WITHOUT the big fat paycheck.

7) They value CHEAP talent over good talent. (Of course, they would rather have good talent cheap, but if they can only have one or the other, they will take the cheap talent over the good talent.) This is why I no longer work in radio. I have bills to pay. When I lived "at home" (read: with my parents), I could work for these cheapskates, but once I had rents, utilities, and later a mortgage, to pay, I had to go into other lines of work. These guys love to compare radio to McDonald's. There is no comparison. McDonald's pays their workers far MORE per hour than any salaried radio employee. (I have first-hand experience with this.) Only the part-timers' pay (because they are hourly) is comparable to McDonald's pay. (I remember a news director telling me that by the time she attended all the meetings (school board, city council, etc.) that she was required to attend, her pay came to about $2.00 an hour. This was in the early '90s.)

Now I am sure that all the usual narcissistic, egomaniacal, money-worshipping know-it-alls will come back to this board, and slice and dice this message (or worse, cherry-pick their favorite parts of it) and tell me how "wrong" I am, but if they do, go into their profiles and read their past messages. They may try to lie to you, but their profiles will tell you the honest-to-God truth about what they REALLY think, and how they REALLY are! You think these guys (and "guys" is gender-neutral, because one of my past narcissists was a woman), are ogres to "debate" with, try WORKING for them. You will find out what hell is REALLY like!

 

[firepoint525]

Yep - that is why they call it "broadcasting" and not narrowcasting. Still don't understand the business model after it has been explained umpteen times?

Your "listeners" (term used VERY loosely here) are also texting and talking on their cell phones (and doing about 100 other things) while supposedly "listening" to the radio. Seriously, save your sorry excuse for an ego for someone who can actually debate and support their own points. You clearly cannot. All you are capable of doing is riding everyone else's coattails.

 

[firepoint525]

Want to bet that it is sold or flipped or off the air in the next 5 years? All of the effort in the world makes no difference if it is a failing business model.

So what? If come-in-last owned it, they would go through half a dozen formats during that same time frame. Five years from now, I will be 55, and I will officially age out of radio demographics, apparently once and for all. What is wrong with having JUST ONE station that exists for my demographic, as long as I am still a part of it?

News flash. We are moving on to the non-comms and smaller rimshot stations. We no longer give a damn about corporate behemoths.

 

[firepoint525]

They understand - at least I hope they understand at this point - but they just refuse to accept it.

See, this is what I mean. You are (once again) riding David's coattails. Can you not make and support your own positions?

We have told YOU (at least I have) that we are ABANDONING corporate radio. Because they long ago abandoned US!

If I were you, I would WANT some rimshots and non-comms out there. They siphon off listeners like me, leaving you with all your brain-dead "masses" so that you can serve up all your pablum to them! And never the twain shall meet! But no, what you really want is a monopoly. You want all the rimshots and non-comms and smaller stations to go away so that you will be the only show in town. Well, that ain't happening either!

 

[firepoint525]

If it is working, why did they yank the second AM that it used to simulcast with and make it into an also-ran talk format?

Okay, well we are apparently no longer referring to Hippie Radio, because while they have been on for a little over two years, they never had any AM stations, at least not under their current ownership.

 

[oldies76]

Wow Firepoint, You're on FIRE this morning!! But I 100% agree with you. I believe small town radio are the ones that truly satisfy their listeners with the real music they are looking for, not some corporate playlist that is forced down our ears over and over again. Big cities are horrible for radio satisfaction (classic hits anyways). And since this is all the listeners really have in the cities, with few alternatives, they are basically forced to hear the only act in town, so ratings are "high". In small towns, where it's not nearly as important, stations can basically play what the true and loyal listeners want, the hits! (and just about all of them, including the "Pied Piper" and Melanie if they darn well choose too).

 

[oldies76]

Okay, well we are apparently no longer referring to Hippie Radio, because while they have been on for a little over two years, they never had any AM stations, at least not under their current ownership.

A few posts above, I explained the situation with AM 690 in Colorado to David. But he does not respond, since I know I'm right.