Proof that hearing Hotel California repeatedly will drive you crazy

[davideduardo]

First must note the current day CJMS is not the one you are referring to.

No, it was the big CHR on 1280.

Next, how did you discover it?

In, perhaps late 1966, I could not take the time to do the semi-annual trip to France and Spain and Italy to bring back music because I had just launched the country's first FM station. So I figured I could hit Montréal and pick up at least the French music from the last 6 months and stop in New York where there was a pretty good Italian record store. And when I got to Montréal I immediately picked up on CJMS.

I also drove out to Pointe Claire and visited CFOX, which was a pretty good CHR with really, really friendly folks. They even took us to dinner and a tour of the night spots in the city.

 

[BOZ Profit]

Something else for our moderator:

Ad buys aren't equal. When I say "the agencies buy 5 to 7 deep...if you're tenth, maybe you make it on some", that's not entirely the agencies' call. Each of their clients has their own budget. Some they can just throw a bucket of money at the top 7 stations 25-54. Others may require applying with an eye dropper to get through the year or the quarter...maybe they only buy the #1 or top 2 stations in the demo.

And demand dictates rates. If you've got more buys than you have ad time, you raise your rates. If you're struggling to get buys, you lower your rates in hopes of looking more attractive...especially to the clients who just decided they can't afford #1 this time around.

But...and this is an immovable truth: Ad dollars are not linear. KIIS-FM billed $61.6 million in 2013. Getting half of KIIS' numbers won't get you $30.8 million in ad revenue, or anywhere near it. There's a steep cliff and, as with record sales back in the day, there's less difference between #11 and last place than there is between #11 and #1.

Having managed a station I completely understand the game, I mean ... method used. : )

I am curious how you would respond to this: If you own a business, with a radio ad budget of $120,000 per year why would you advertise on the #1 station with an AQH audience of 10,000 and spending $10,000/month for 33 spots (@ $330/spot) when you could advertise on #10 with an AQH of 1,000 and get 200 spots (@ $50/spot). In the first example you barely get 1 spot a day. In the second you get almost 7. You have a better chance of getting a response in the second example than the 1st. And response is what radio is supposed to do for advertisers.

 

[TheBigA]

So, logic tells me why aren't all stations only playing the only mass appeal songs?

They are, in a way, but within their own sub-category, as defined by the target set by the station. Which is why some songs cross station lines and get played on multiple stations, and some don't.

I must have missed it... can you point me to your first reply with the Garth Brooks example?

In the early 90s, Garth Brooks was selling as many or more records as any of the pop acts, and his music was crossing lots of boundaries. But pop stations wouldn't play his music, regardless of popularity, because Garth wore a cowboy hat, and that defined him as country or regional. Especially big city pop stations refused to play him. So Garth never was able to take advantage of his popularity the way Shania and Kenny Rogers did.

I have to disagree here. I think marketers did; more specifically radio people with that marketing savvy.

Maybe, but they did it because they recognized that different people like different music. So it began with the taste of the people. Music begins with the artist who creates it. That music then appeals to people. The fact that there are more genres and subgenres now than there were 30 years ago is attributable to the musicians and their fans, not marketers.

 

[BOZ Profit]

No, it was the big CHR on 1280.



In, perhaps late 1966, I could not take the time to do the semi-annual trip to France and Spain and Italy to bring back music because I had just launched the country's first FM station. So I figured I could hit Montréal and pick up at least the French music from the last 6 months and stop in New York where there was a pretty good Italian record store. And when I got to Montréal I immediately picked up on CJMS.

I also drove out to Pointe Claire and visited CFOX, which was a pretty good CHR with really, really friendly folks. They even took us to dinner and a tour of the night spots in the city.

Very cool.. do you still visit Montreal?

I have to say, while I understand the "whys", it is sad that many AMs are going dark here. I REALLY had a hard time with 940's CINW license being turned in. I believe it will be revived, however as a French station. (Nothing wrong with that, but I would prefer it to be in English.)

 

[davideduardo]

Having managed a station I completely understand the game, I mean ... method used. : )

I am curious how you would respond to this: If you own a business, with a radio ad budget of $120,000 per year why would you advertise on the #1 station with an AQH audience of 10,000 and spending $10,000/month for 33 spots (@ $330/spot) when you could advertise on #10 with an AQH of 1,000 and get 200 spots (@ $50/spot). In the first example you barely get 1 spot a day. In the second you get almost 7. You have a better chance of getting a response in the second example than the 1st. And response is what radio is supposed to do for advertisers.

Assuming that, as an advertiser, I understand CPP or CPM, I'd probably look for both reach and frequency. I might buy around the #1 and go for two stations in the mid-range where I could get about 24 spots per day. I'd pick stations that mirror my customer demo unless I was trying to expand my customer base into new areas. I could easily ask customers something like "what station were you listening to on your car radio when you came over here today" to get the best POP data possible. Then I would track the campaign the same way with the "in the car" question to evaluate who brought in the most cash customers.

I've always thought that 18 to 24 spots a week is optimum, and some of the old RAB "total audience" plan sales material supported this. If the cost is too high, then flight with a week on and a week off, or two on, one off.

 

[davideduardo]

I may be the only person here who has non-commercial experience, so I'll address that.

I've also done non-com, but an entirely different kind.

I've consulted and programmed stations owned by the Catholic Church in both Puerto Rico and Perú. These were not dependent directly on donations, but were instead outreach programs of the Church. As such, they had to achieve goals that were consistent with the mission of the station operator and had to do with what kind of outreach was desired. In each case, it was about programming to the desired group: one was lapsed Catholics who needed spiritual comfort and an invitation back into the fold, and the other was more teaching and informational for active, participatory Catholics including a focused news effort.

I have also done a University station in Sinaloa, Mexico (XEUAS) which was financed by the state government and intended to be both a community station and a hands-on learning experience. Part of the job there was to create block programming with a balance of professional shows and those where students could gain experience on the air. In all cases, the background work was done by supervised students who got credit. The goal was to be a part of the overall University's objectives and needs.

 

[BOZ Profit]

In the early 90s, Garth Brooks was selling as many or more records as any of the pop acts, and his music was crossing lots of boundaries. But pop stations wouldn't play his music, regardless of popularity, because Garth wore a cowboy hat, and that defined him as country. Especially big city pop stations refused to play him. So Garth never was able to take advantage of his popularity the way Shania and Kenny Rogers did.

I did read this, sorry... I looked back and couldn't find your reference. Thanks for reposting though!

Maybe, but they did it because they recognized that different people like different music. So it began with the taste of the people. Music begins with the artist who creates it. That music then appeals to people. The fact that there are more genres and subgenres now than there were 30 years ago is attributable to the musicians and their fans, not marketers.

I have no issue with multiple formats.. I'm just arguing what is the point if the business angle is to appeal to the largest audience at any given moment. Personally, I like things compartmentalized... i.e. I can tune in and find rock when I want, pop when I want, etc..

I still disagree that the fans are creating the subgenres. It is all marketing. I remember being a college deejay. We played "Alternative" music. It was supposed to be music you wouldn't find anywhere else. But 6 months after playing Smells Like Teen Spirit, the Rock station picked it up. And 6 months after I'm Too Sexy, the CHR picked it up. The "Alt" was just branding to appeal to a certain demographic. I still associate more with that genre though, as I knew it in the late 80s and early 90s.

I get main Genres: Rock, Pop, Adult Contemporary, Country, Oldies, Jazz, Standards, Classical, maybe there are a couple I have left out. But when we get into the subgenres: Active Rock, Hard Rock, Metal, Speed Metal, Alternative, Classic Alternative, AAA, AOR, I think we over compartmentalize. Everyone needs a label, then gets mad that they are labelled. lol

 

[davideduardo]

Very cool.. do you still visit Montreal?

I've visited Toronto, one of my favorite cities in the world, much more often including just a few years ago. It's getting too big, eh.

Montréal, which I like even more for its je ne sais quoi quality, has not been on my itinerary for about two decades, much to my regret. And my formerly fairly fluent French (good enough so that Parisians don't sneer at me... much) is very much forgotten.

 

[BOZ Profit]

Assuming that, as an advertiser, I understand CPP or CPM, I'd probably look for both reach and frequency. I might buy around the #1 and go for two stations in the mid-range where I could get about 24 spots per day. I'd pick stations that mirror my customer demo unless I was trying to expand my customer base into new areas. I could easily ask customers something like "what station were you listening to on your car radio when you came over here today" to get the best POP data possible. Then I would track the campaign the same way with the "in the car" question to evaluate who brought in the most cash customers.

I've always thought that 18 to 24 spots a week is optimum, and some of the old RAB "total audience" plan sales material supported this. If the cost is too high, then flight with a week on and a week off, or two on, one off.

I'm sure you are aware many business owners do not buy that way. The more educated do. But I think they are in the minority. And agencies seeking to maximize the client's return also seemed to be rare. They just spend the client's money to get their commission, with no consideration of ROI. Again, just my own experience and what I have encountered.

I always thought it was funny when a business owner would not buy a station because he/she did not listen to it. As if suggesting the listeners of the proposed buy would not make good customers. In cases with a different demo that would be true, but when talking about the same demo, I had to scratch my head.

 

[BOZ Profit]

I've visited Toronto, one of my favorite cities in the world, much more often including just a few years ago. It's getting too big, eh.

Montréal, which I like even more for its je ne sais quoi quality, has not been on my itinerary for about two decades, much to my regret. And my formerly fairly fluent French (good enough so that Parisians don't sneer at me... much) is very much forgotten.

Quebequois French is quite different than Parisian French.. : )

Montreal is an amazing multicultural city.

 

[TheBigA]

I still disagree that the fans are creating the subgenres. It is all marketing. I remember being a college deejay. We played "Alternative" music. It was supposed to be music you wouldn't find anywhere else. But 6 months after playing Smells Like Teen Spirit, the Rock station picked it up. And 6 months after I'm Too Sexy, the CHR picked it up. The "Alt" was just branding to appeal to a certain demographic. I still associate more with that genre though, as I knew it in the late 80s and early 90s.

But it still begins with the music, and the music attracting fans. That's where the rubber meets the road.

Tom Donohue was a successful Top 40 DJ at KYA San Francisco in 1966 who tired of playing the same 40 songs over and over. So he went to a small FM station, KMPX, and pitched them on giving him full control on a new progressive rock format. He based his format on the popularity of local bands he saw around San Francisco who were able to attract huge crowds without radio airplay. He thought he'd have success if he programmed a radio format for them. So yes, Tom was the savvy marketer, but he did it based on the existence of the music and the fan base. All the marketer does is ascertain the potential popularity, and deliver the product for them. But he doesn't create the product in the first place. That's the difference between Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs.

 

[davideduardo]

All the marketer does is ascertain the potential popularity, and deliver the product for them.

Or, as has been said, radio does not make tastes, it reflects them.

 

[BOZ Profit]

Good questions.

First, it's important to note that the amount of dollars spent in any given major market in any given year is not a subject of much mystery. Budgets are drawn up well in advance. Broadcast trades and the larger financial news media report on what the likely amount of ad spending in a coming year will be. That can change based on conditions, but only by a few percent.

In my experience, stations decide on a format by looking at the amount of money being spent by advertisers in the market to attract a given demographic, then examine the stations already dividing that ad revenue. Analyses are done as to the strengths and weaknesses of the players already there (including their own...do we have the signal to cover the market adequately?). Is there an opportunity to rank highly enough to be an automatic buy in that demographic? If so, are we displacing a competitor or simply reducing the size of the slices of the pie? If the latter, is the result a number profitable for us given the way we want to run the radio station? If not, are we willing to make changes to the operating plan (voice-tracking instead of live DJs, a lower promotion budget) to make it profitable? Could additional promotion actually displace one of the competitors? What would that cost? Would the added cost reduce or perhaps eliminate the profit margin?

If the answers aren't satisfying, you move on to another demographic and perform the same analyses. Sometimes you'll find that (and this is just for illustration), while less money overall is being spent in your market on 18-34 than on 25-54, your chances are better of making more money because there are fewer competitors, or it would be easier to displace one or more of them from the format.

Again, if the answers aren't satisfying, you move on. Some stations find themselves in what might be considered "niche" broadcasting (religion, ethnic), but the numbers are better than what they could get trying to elbow into the pond where the big dogs are drinking.

If every station went after the largest ad spending category, there would not only be vast underserved yet profitable demographics, but broadcasters would continue to research, to promote, to make their stations respond to the behaviors and expectations of the audience. In time, some of them would rise above the others in the ratings, the agencies would buy the top five, seven, maybe ten of them....and the rest would starve, forcing them to go find where they could make money, which would lead to something that looks remarkably like today.

Getting back to choosing formats, my example of the Ford Edsel again comes to mind. In all the research, it needs to be asked: "Will the advertisers buy the format?" More specifically "the audience"?

 

[oldies76]

I think the pros on the site acknowledge this.

It comes back to the point that David has made about having been involved in 1000's of music tests. He has seen results first hand and they have not really varied much. Human behavior is actually quite predictable when you are in the behavior monitoring business. Sure, there are exceptions as with everything. But the research is not to find the exceptions to cater to. It's to find the "norm". What will most respond to?

Here is an example: if you put 1000 people in room and gave them 3 kinds of ice cream to taste: vanilla, chocolate and strawberry. The majority will say they like vanilla the most. But what about those in the room that would say they like cherry the most, if it were a choice? Is it not fair that cherry was not represented? Do the majority in the room care that cherry was not an option too?

The majority of people may even be thinking "why doesn't KRTH play X" (where X is any song, and that can be thousands of answers...) but ultimately they are happy because the songs that are played, they are happy with.

KRTH, or any station, is not really concerned that we will sometimes turn off the radio to listen to an iPod. That (turning off the radio to listen to something else) has been happening since vinyl was created ... they know that in order for people to turn it back on there has to be something we want as a majority.

I'm not sure I can simply it any further. Do I want CHOM here in Montreal to only play music I want? Sure. But it is not going to happen. There is a much larger audience to consider, and I have to accept that 1/4 of the time I will be thrilled that they play music I thoroughly enjoy, 1/4 of the time I will be happy because I do like it or I have been exposed to something new and like it, 1/4 not really care it's just become background, and 1/4 turning the dial or turning the radio off because I really didn't like what was played. And so it is for each listener. So radio tries to mitigate the 1/4 where we will go away, but it is inevitable, especially with all the options. But I do come back. Why? Because I know they will eventually play something I love, and they also provide other content I am not going to get anywhere else.

And I appreciate the responses from our moderator, David, Mr. Hagerty and the Big A.

I just have a hard time accepting that a small sample size (music tests) will determine what the others (the 99.99% of your audience) will listen to. But I suppose, that's just the way it is these days. And considering that many smaller rated stations and unrated small town stations have expanded playlists and great specials (like the diary days for KRTH), I am trying to compare and figure out based on my preferences for larger playlists on these other stations, why the big cities can't do the same. You guys have explained it (granted many times), but it's not my way or preference for playing the thousands of great tunes out there, that someday, will all become "lost 45's". I hope you understand my position as well.

 

[BOZ Profit]

And I appreciate the responses from our moderator, David, Mr. Hagerty and the Big A.

I just have a hard time accepting that a small sample size (music tests) will determine what the others (the 99.99% of your audience) will listen to. But I suppose, that's just the way it is these days. And considering that many smaller rated stations and unrated small town stations have expanded playlists and great specials (like the diary days for KRTH), I am trying to compare and figure out based on my preferences for larger playlists on these other stations, why the big cities can't do the same. You guys have explained it (granted many times), but it's not my way or preference for playing the thousands of great tunes out there, that someday, will all become "lost 45's". I hope you understand my position as well.

Of course your position is understood. They have just been trying to explain the whys and hows they use the model they do.

The smaller market stations, especially unrated markets, do not have to answer to numbers (ratings and revenue) like the large and major markets do. If the business model in the large and major markets worked the way you prefer, they would embrace it.

Smaller market radio ad sales are based more on community relationships, less on how many people are listening (although that model may be changing with more consolidation). Agencies generally do not buy in unrated markets so those stations have more leeway with programming for that reason too. And if a radio station is providing results for the local business, the local business will continue to support the station regardless of the size of the playlist.

 

[TheBigA]

Getting back to choosing formats, my example of the Ford Edsel again comes to mind. In all the research, it needs to be asked: "Will the advertisers buy the format?" More specifically "the audience"?

And that gets addressed by the multiplicity of questions being asked by the multiplicity of stations, researchers, programmers, and consultants. Ford's problem was they were just one company. Radio is a far bigger platform utilizing more resources. And it's not like companies stopped making Edsels after Ford. That's what happens when you take risks and launch new products. DeLorean had great success when he was at Ford and GM. When it came to launching his own company, not so much. Over in the HD Radio forum, they describe HD Radio as the solution to a problem that didn't exist. Maybe, but you can't say that AM radio sound is perfect, and isn't something that could be improved. So that's why you keep trying.

 

[davideduardo]

Quebequois French is quite different than Parisian French.. : )

I am pretty good at picking up nuances, such as Brazilian and Portuquese versions of their language. And I speak Argentine, Ecuadorian, Dominican, Mexican, Puerto Rican and Madrid Spanish and do OK with the accents and localisms of the coast, Bogotá, Medellín and Cali in Colombia.

The one variety of French I have trouble with is Kreyol. Too much changed vocabulary, too many differences in accent.

 

[BOZ Profit]

And that gets addressed by the multiplicity of questions being asked by the multiplicity of stations, researchers, programmers, and consultants. Ford's problem was they were just one company. Radio is a far bigger platform utilizing more resources. And it's not like companies stopped making Edsels after Ford. That's what happens when you take risks and launch new products. DeLorean had great success when he was at Ford and GM. When it came to launching his own company, not so much. Over in the HD Radio forum, they describe HD Radio as the solution to a problem that didn't exist. Maybe, but you can't say that AM radio sound is perfect, and isn't something that could be improved. So that's why you keep trying.

I think that has been Oldies position: keep trying. This discussion has not been about putting a round peg in a square hole. I think it's more about finding the glove with the right fit.

What you just said about AM Radio may apply to all radio: It is something that can always be improved.

Also, what you said about taking risks and launching new products... Oldies example is a risk that may work elsewhere; maybe in a small market, but maybe not in LA or in a large market for many reasons already discussed.

 

[BOZ Profit]

I am pretty good at picking up nuances, such as Brazilian and Portuquese versions of their language. And I speak Argentine, Ecuadorian, Dominican, Mexican, Puerto Rican and Madrid Spanish and do OK with the accents and localisms of the coast, Bogotá, Medellín and Cali in Colombia.

The one variety of French I have trouble with is Kreyol. Too much changed vocabulary, too many differences in accent.

That's amazing. I wish I had the patience!

 

[TheBigA]

I think that has been Oldies position: keep trying. This discussion has not been about putting a round peg in a square hole. I think it's more about finding the glove with the right fit.

But Oldies has admittedly found the station that's right for him. He's found several. That's not his goal in this discussion.