Stations that give up "heritage" call letters

[davideduardo]

In a perfect world, iHeart wouldn't be struggling with billions of dollars of debt. But since they are, this little fantasy scenario of mine would seem like so much of Nero's fiddling while Rome burns: 1. iHeart parks KXNO calls onto one of their many FMs. 2. KXNO 1460 Des Moines applies to retrieve heritage KSO calls. 3. KKDM 107.5 Des Moines, "KISS 107.5" applies for KSO-FM. 4. KXNO calls are moved back to 1460.

Apologies if I've posted this scenario before (I'm pretty sure I have) but since we're on the topic....

BTW, all of the Seattle stations that are using K+the heritage three-toe on the facilities that originally sported the three-toe would likely be able to get the three-toe back if they were to ask. Again, most managements likely have bigger fish to fry, or keep from burning, as in the analogy above.

The administrative rule is that a 3-letter call can only be retrieved if the station is currently in the hands of the same owner as the one who changed away from the three letter call. If the station has been transferred since the change, they can not get the three letter call back.

 

[joebtsflk1]

In reading the Thomas White articles, it seems there really is no rhyme nor reason on how three-letter calls are reinstated. See the KHJ case where RKO General had them changed to KRTH, then Liberman changed them back to KHJ.

 

[davideduardo]

In reading the Thomas White articles, it seems there really is no rhyme nor reason on how three-letter calls are reinstated. See the KHJ case where RKO General had them changed to KRTH, then Liberman changed them back to KHJ.

The KKHJ case was an exception to the rule based on an alleged (but totally bogus) issue regarding the pronunciation of the station call letters in Spanish. I posted the details earlier in the thread, but here is the case again:

"And let's not forget how KKHJ got the "old" KHJ calls back.

The FCC had allowed reversion to three-letter calls only if the same licensee who renounced them requested them back. In the case of KKHJ, Los Angeles, the licensee was not the same as the one who changed them to KRTH (AM). So they should not have been able to make the change, right?

Wrong. KKHJ successfully argued that the two "K" letters in Spanish were pronounced just the same as "caca", the word for "poop". They wanted to avoid that unpleasant connotation and asked for KHJ back and got the request granted.

It did not matter that the station only used the calls at the top of the hour legal ID, and never, ever said them in Spanish... the ruse worked even though there was really no problem"

Other than this exception, the rule is "no recovery of 3-letter calls unless under same ownership as when the calls were changed".

 

[CTListener]

The KKHJ case was an exception to the rule based on an alleged (but totally bogus) issue regarding the pronunciation of the station call letters in Spanish. I posted the details earlier in the thread, but here is the case again:

"And let's not forget how KKHJ got the "old" KHJ calls back.

The FCC had allowed reversion to three-letter calls only if the same licensee who renounced them requested them back. In the case of KKHJ, Los Angeles, the licensee was not the same as the one who changed them to KRTH (AM). So they should not have been able to make the change, right?

Wrong. KKHJ successfully argued that the two "K" letters in Spanish were pronounced just the same as "caca", the word for "poop". They wanted to avoid that unpleasant connotation and asked for KHJ back and got the request granted.

It did not matter that the station only used the calls at the top of the hour legal ID, and never, ever said them in Spanish... the ruse worked even though there was really no problem"

Other than this exception, the rule is "no recovery of 3-letter calls unless under same ownership as when the calls were changed".

Did Liberman argue that the KKHJ/Caca issue could be a problem if he were to take the station Spanish down the road? Are there Spanish-language stations now in operation with "KK" anywhere in their calls? If not, maybe the issue isn't completely bogus.

 

[MarcB]

Sometimes they come back. In April 2003 WNTY 990 then a talk station rebranded as eXaCT Radio 990 The X WXCT. Nearly 13 years later under new ownership and a Classic Hits format they brought back the WNTY call letters in February 2016. The WNTY call letters date back to September 1969 when the station first signed on.

KOOL Radio
WACM West Springfield
WNTY Southington
WSKP Hope Valley
WBMW HD3 Pawcatuck

All 3 of these small AMers are getting FM repeaters.

 

[davideduardo]

Did Liberman argue that the KKHJ/Caca issue could be a problem if he were to take the station Spanish down the road? Are there Spanish-language stations now in operation with "KK" anywhere in their calls? If not, maybe the issue isn't completely bogus.

Liberman (who is Hispanic) requested the "KKHJ" calls when he bought KRTH (AM) from Beasley. The format was Spanish-language from day one.

The station was named "Radio Alegría" and never, ever used the call letters in Spanish. The only mention of "KKHJ" was in the English language as part of the legal ID once an hour.

I am quite confident of this information as I was the OM and PD of KKHJ for three tedious years in the early 90's until Cecil Heftel pulled me away.

Univision's KKRG in Albuquerque was Spanish language for many years and the calls, also only used in the English legal ID, were no problem at all. KKDD in the Inland Empire, KKHR in Ablilene, KKLF in the Dallas market, KKMR in the Phoenix metro, KKPS in the LGRV, and KKUB in Brownsfield, TX are other all or partially Spanish language stations that have the dreaded double K in the calls.

 

[joebtsflk1]

The KKHJ case was an exception to the rule based on an alleged (but totally bogus) issue regarding the pronunciation of the station call letters in Spanish. I posted the details earlier in the thread, but here is the case again:

"And let's not forget how KKHJ got the "old" KHJ calls back.

The FCC had allowed reversion to three-letter calls only if the same licensee who renounced them requested them back. In the case of KKHJ, Los Angeles, the licensee was not the same as the one who changed them to KRTH (AM). So they should not have been able to make the change, right?

Wrong. KKHJ successfully argued that the two "K" letters in Spanish were pronounced just the same as "caca", the word for "poop". They wanted to avoid that unpleasant connotation and asked for KHJ back and got the request granted.

It did not matter that the station only used the calls at the top of the hour legal ID, and never, ever said them in Spanish... the ruse worked even though there was really no problem"

Other than this exception, the rule is "no recovery of 3-letter calls unless under same ownership as when the calls were changed".

Was this administrative rule formed after 1962? From what I'm finding online, that was the year Storer purchased WMGM from Loew's and restored the WHN calls that Loew's ditched in 1948.

I am open to the possibility that Storer requested Loew's reinstate the WHN calls in the sales agreement. So technically, the same licensee that ditched the three-toe brought it back, even though Loew's operated as WHN only for the day of transfer in 1962.

Somehow, if Lieberman pulled the wool over the Commission's eyes with the KKHJ>KHJ case, a later Commission may decide to ignore the "same licensee, same facility" exception policy and restore a three-toe to the heritage facility that previously used them, regardless of ownership continuity.

Then again, I don't see any company like iHeart coming forward to restore, for example, KSO to 1460 Des Moines. One, the KXNO calls suits the current 1460 format so well. Two, they probably have better things to do, so I don't see this policy being tested again anytime soon.

 

[joebtsflk1]

The KKHJ case was an exception to the rule based on an alleged (but totally bogus) issue regarding the pronunciation of the station call letters in Spanish. I posted the details earlier in the thread, but here is the case again:

"And let's not forget how KKHJ got the "old" KHJ calls back.

The FCC had allowed reversion to three-letter calls only if the same licensee who renounced them requested them back. In the case of KKHJ, Los Angeles, the licensee was not the same as the one who changed them to KRTH (AM). So they should not have been able to make the change, right?

Wrong. KKHJ successfully argued that the two "K" letters in Spanish were pronounced just the same as "caca", the word for "poop". They wanted to avoid that unpleasant connotation and asked for KHJ back and got the request granted.

It did not matter that the station only used the calls at the top of the hour legal ID, and never, ever said them in Spanish... the ruse worked even though there was really no problem"

Other than this exception, the rule is "no recovery of 3-letter calls unless under same ownership as when the calls were changed".

Was this administrative rule formed after 1962? From what I'm finding online, that was the year Storer purchased WMGM from Loew's and restored the WHN calls that Loew's ditched in 1948.

I am open to the possibility that Storer requested Loew's reinstate the WHN calls in the sales agreement. So technically, the same licensee that ditched the three-toe brought it back, even though Loew's operated as WHN only for the day of transfer in 1962.

Somehow, if Lieberman pulled the wool over the Commission's eyes with the KKHJ>KHJ case, a later Commission may decide to ignore the "same licensee, same facility" exception policy and restore a three-toe to the heritage facility that previously used them, regardless of ownership continuity.

Then again, I don't see any company like iHeart coming forward to restore, for example, KSO to 1460 Des Moines. One, the KXNO calls suits the current 1460 format so well. Two, they probably have better things to do, so we won't see this policy tested again anytime soon.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Other than this exception, the rule is "no recovery of 3-letter calls unless under same ownership as when the calls were changed".

Well, er, not quite.

"Only four-letter call signs (plus an LP, FM, TV or CA suffix, if used) will be assigned. The four letter call sign for LPFM stations will be followed by the suffix “-LP.” However, subject to the other provisions of this section, a call sign of a station may be conformed to a commonly owned station holding a three-letter call assignment (plus FM, TV, CA or LP suffixes, if used)."

47 CFR Sec. 73.3550(f)

 

[K.M. Richards]

Joe, has it occurred to you that perhaps a waiver of the rule was made by the Commission for the KHJ issue?

I'm remembering a similar situation when the KYA calls were restored in San Francisco.

 

[davideduardo]

Well, er, not quite.

"Only four-letter call signs (plus an LP, FM, TV or CA suffix, if used) will be assigned. The four letter call sign for LPFM stations will be followed by the suffix “-LP.” However, subject to the other provisions of this section, a call sign of a station may be conformed to a commonly owned station holding a three-letter call assignment (plus FM, TV, CA or LP suffixes, if used)."

47 CFR Sec. 73.3550(f)

That is not a "recovery" of inactive / abandoned 3-letter calls. It is an extension of an existing set to another service. If I have KYZ-TV and I buy WZZX (FM) I can put the KYZ calls on the FM as they are active.

 

[semoochie]

Joe, has it occurred to you that perhaps a waiver of the rule was made by the Commission for the KHJ issue?

I'm remembering a similar situation when the KYA calls were restored in San Francisco.

Yes, that was a strange one. As I recall, KYA became KOIT(AM), as they transferred control of their FM to Golden West and changed it to KYA-FM, thus saving the calls albeit with a different owner.

 

[K.M. Richards]

I'm now also remembering that KRE got to take back those calls from KPAT back in 1972, only to give them up again in 1986 when they started simulcasting KBLX-FM.

IIRC, the FCC allowed the restoration, nine years after they were given up, to honor their 50th anniversary on the air, and the calls officially changed back on the anniversary date.

 

[ftballfan]

The original WMTE-FM (which was co-owned with now-defunct WMTE (AM)) danced all around it. Its call letters have gone WMTE-FM >> WRRK >> WMTE-FM >> WVXM >> WMLQ (ironically, the current WMTE-FM is a current sister station of WMLQ and recently took WMLQ's previous format).

One that hasn't given up heritage calls, but probably will with the next ownership change whenever that happens, is WLDR in Traverse City. Those call letters are damaged goods due to its current owner

 

[MarioMania]

It's like CBS is holding the KFRC calls, Are they going to use it for classic hit format anymore?

 

[TheBigA]

In a way, it's not unlike domain names, Facebook, and Twitter names. Believe me...I've had to wrangle with lots of civilians who've registered various domain names for no real useful purpose, but it prevents me from registering that name for a company. They're holding out, expecting a big cash buyout. Quite often it feels like extortion, with domain names being held hostage. But that's how the system works. That's why stations quickly go out and register any possible names they can think of before announcing their intention.

 

[davideduardo]

It's like CBS is holding the KFRC calls, Are they going to use it for classic hit format anymore?

They are not "holding" the calls... they just saw no reason not to keep them when they dropped the music format to simulcast KCBS (AM). By now, any equity in those calls is long gone.

 

[MarioMania]

Yeah, No one cares except us DXers about Call Letters

 

[K.M. Richards]

Yeah, No one cares except us DXers about Call Letters

And even so, do you really care what they are, so long as they are audibly announced at some point while you're listening so you can accurately log the station?

I do feel sorry for all of you whose hobby is DXing. The push to use every frequency in every corner of the nation has got to be causing so much interference for you ... but of course, since there's no money to be made from you, what chance do you have of being accommodated?

 

[CTListener]

In a way, it's not unlike domain names, Facebook, and Twitter names. Believe me...I've had to wrangle with lots of civilians who've registered various domain names for no real useful purpose, but it prevents me from registering that name for a company. They're holding out, expecting a big cash buyout. Quite often it feels like extortion, with domain names being held hostage. But that's how the system works. That's why stations quickly go out and register any possible names they can think of before announcing their intention.

I was watching a Red Sox-Twins exhibition game a couple of days ago and noticed that the Twins' URL is twinsbaseball.com, not twins.com as you might expect. Sure enough, someone is sitting on twins.com, but it looks like the baseball team has decided that what it has is good enough and it won't cough up the cash. I remember that the Seattle Mariners had mariners.org for several years early in the Internet era because some marine supply distributor in Lousiana -- legit business -- had parked itself on mariners.com. The M's eventually got the .com domain.

Just curious, how much was the most you -- or anyone you know -- ever paid for a radio station domain name?