Which Old School 50Kw clear blowtorch do you think has the best overall signal?

[Ai4i]

...interference might well have been worse.

One thing that has improved a great deal more recently has been CATV shielding.
In the early nineteen-eighties, I could not use a local two meter repeater outputting on 145.25 MHz anywhere.
The video carrier of cable channel eighteen on the same frequency egressed, and in my case aggressed, everywhere.
By the nineteen-nineties, though, all that noise had vanished.

 

[rfry]

WLW Coverage

Remember that WLW at 500 kw did not come close to covering the whole country (even at night). ...

According to FCC data, WLW with a 50 kW transmitter has a groundwave RMS field of about 2600 mV/m at 1 km. Based on the FCC groundwave propagation chart for 700 kHz and 8 mS/m earth conductivity, the radius to their 0.5 mV/m groundwave contour is about 139 miles.

For a 500 kW transmitter (and other things the same), the WLW groundwave at 139 miles would increase to 1.6 mV/m. Their 0.5 mV/m groundwave contour radius would increase to about 200 miles, which is about 44% greater than when using 50 kW.

While these improvements are significant, they may be less than expected for this 10X increase in radiated power.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Canada and the US show 10 and 8 mS/m respectively for the Great Lakes.

If the sandy shoreline of Lake Michigan near Chicago were measured separately, it would probably be much lower conductivity than a few miles inland.

You might want to look at the WCGO 1590 Evanston and WMFN 640 Peotone applications to see what they show for Lake Michigan and the Chicago area. The WMFN application shows that the 25 mV/m measured contours of the proposed WMFN 640 Peotone and WSCR 670 would not overlap. CBS didn't challenge the measurements, which tells me that it is probably even worse than the application indicated.

 

[davideduardo]

Canada and the US show 10 and 8 mS/m respectively for the Great Lakes.

If the sandy shoreline of Lake Michigan near Chicago were measured separately, it would probably be much lower conductivity than a few miles inland.

You might want to look at the WCGO 1590 Evanston and WMFN 640 Peotone applications to see what they show for Lake Michigan and the Chicago area. The WMFN application shows that the 25 mV/m measured contours of the proposed WMFN 640 Peotone and WSCR 670 would not overlap. CBS didn't challenge the measurements, which tells me that it is probably even worse than the application indicated.

When I first became aware of the inaccuracies of predicted groundwave propagation was when WCCW at 5 kw went on the air. Located a few miles to the west of Traverse City in sandy loam hills, it barely covered better than WTCM up at 1400 at 1 kw daytime. WTCM was, I believe, to the south of the city in more loamy, moist soil.

 

[GRS86]

As a young lad growing up in Miami, I always wondered why the closest 1-A, "Welcome South, Brother" was so very difficult to hear at night.
Another relatively close one with a lackluster signal was known to have "Shielded Millions" from Nashville.
My strongest English language skywaves were always PJB, Bonaire, and WBT, Charlotte, probably in that order.

FL, as a whole is just a terrible place for DXing AM radio, unless you are out over the water. With all the Cuban and Venezuelan frequencies present in FL, just about everything gets wiped out at some time or the other. Maybe David can answer this for us, but if I'm not mistaken, several Miami area AM's are authorized to operate at double their normal ERP in order to compensate for Cuban interference.

To answer your question, and I don't know how true this is, but I heard a local broadcaster here in Atlanta mention back in the 70's that Cuba would jam the signals of WSB and the other Southern 1-A's because of their ability to reach Cuba, under the right circumstances. The joke was that the only thing on WSB that Fidel wanted to hear were the Braves, back when they were on WSB. LOL I do know that when the Venezuela station that's on 750 is on, it has the upper hand over WSB, especially in South FL. Even then, it depends on where you are. Back in March when I was last down there in Miami, there were some locations where Venezuela was like a local. However, at my hotel, WSB came in strong and loud. A few feet can make a huge difference. My South FL mainland experience is that the dial is void of 1-A's outside of WSB, WSM, and WWL when they aren't being wiped out. My experiences with WLW is that it is generally present as far as the I-4 Corridor, but dies off below that.

 

[charlestondxman]

Skywave/ground wave cancellation differs depending on the signal. I sometimes get it on WBT, but usually this happens around Columbia, much closer to the transmitter. WBT gets interference sometimes from the cancellation. However, when you go less than 2 hours S to Savannah, WBT is clear almost every night.

Ground conductivity also affects our signals a lot as well. South Florida is an 8 along with the coast between Jacksonville and Hilton Head while the Charleston area is 4.

That is why WBMQ from Savannah on 630 blasts into Charleston daytime and always has. WIOD and WDAE St. Petersburg (620) both run double the power they are assigned due to Cuba.

That's probably why I can get WDAE here daytime under the much closer station near Columbia.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I'll have to look in your archives, David, to see if a TL is shown for WTCM 1400. I thought that WLJN just took over the old tower but changed the City of License to Elmwood Township. The "new" (1980) facility for 580 is SW of Traverse City. It went from 2.5/0.5 to 5/0.5 to 5/0.8 to 15/0.8 to 35/1.1 to 50/1.1, all with the same parallelogram. The new WCCW site is close to straight South from Traverse City. The WTCM 580 site wasn't oriented right for WCCW 1310 at Night, which from the new TL went to 15/7.5. It had a CP for 50 kW daytime. The PSSA possible wasn't anywhere near sufficient from the WTCM site.

How was the WCCW signal in the Old Mission Peninsula? I would think pretty good, but the signal had to traverse a few miles of sand before reaching the water. rfry and I have demonstrated that site conductivity is more important than whole path conductivity.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

FL, as a whole is just a terrible place for DXing AM radio, unless you are out over the water.

I am glad you added that disclaimer! I moved to Daytona Beach Shores in the summer, was on the intercoastal waterway, and two blocks from the beach. I was astounded that some of the NYC clears could be heard all day long, and it wasn't just a fluke! They kept right on being there - on just a GE Superadio 2. There were some other clears, too, like WLW. I never got any of the Chicago clears in the day, but a lot of East Coast / midwest clear were there.

I later moved off the beach 3 to 4 miles inland, and all the clears disappeared, except for a faint WSB.

 

[davideduardo]

FL, as a whole is just a terrible place for DXing AM radio, unless you are out over the water. With all the Cuban and Venezuelan frequencies present in FL, just about everything gets wiped out at some time or the other. Maybe David can answer this for us, but if I'm not mistaken, several Miami area AM's are authorized to operate at double their normal ERP in order to compensate for Cuban interference..

My view is contrarian. When I actively DXed from Miami in the early 80's, I found the location to be an outstanding DX location. I was located on the West side of Miami right off the Trail and near the WHTT (Now WSUA) transmitter site.

I had previously DXed for over a decade from a suburb of San Juan, and found Miami much better.

The best catches were southern Europe and both northern Africa and Sub-Saharan Africans stations, and a plethora of things ranging from 100 watt Brazilians, low powered Central Americans and most of the now-defunct Windward Islands AMs. Ecuador, deep Colombia and the Southern Cone were also fairly easy to hear.

My indicator for a good deep South American opening was Radio Cagüazú in Paraguay, 1 kw on 645 kHz. If it was coming in better than normal, there were opportunities for other exotic catches.

Two Miami stations have STAs... WIOD and 790. Both got exceptions due to non-NARBA compliant Cuban operations.

 

[davideduardo]

How was the WCCW signal in the Old Mission Peninsula? I would think pretty good, but the signal had to traverse a few miles of sand before reaching the water. rfry and I have demonstrated that site conductivity is more important than whole path conductivity.

I never checked WCCW out on Old Mission. At Omena, the Paul Bunyan station was very fringe sounding but readable, and WCCW was noisy.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Just checked the 1942 Radio Annual in your archives, David. WTCM 1400 (established in 1941) Transmitter Location is listed as "Elmwood Township-Leelanau County". So the TL apparently didn't change significantly until 1980, when they moved to 580. At 250 watts, the fairly close location was probably adequate, but not great, particularly at Night. At some point, they may have put up a taller, more efficient antenna.

 

[cyberdad]

WIOD and WDAE St. Petersburg (620) both run double the power they are assigned due to Cuba.

That's probably why I can get WDAE here daytime under the much closer station near Columbia.

Probably also explains why I get a very listenable daytime signal from WDAE whenever I've been along I-12 and US 190 on the North Shore of Lake Ponchartrain (25 miles or so north of New Orleans). "Back in the day" that stretch of road was all WJDX. Hang a right on Louisiana 25 or I-55 and "62/JDX" was all alone from there to Memphis (and a great listen).

 

[frankberry]

The WDAE tower piers are sitting in salt water.
They have always had a huge signal. The difference in coverage between 5kW and 10kW isn't that much.

 

[Tim from Springfield IL]

I'd include KWMT and WMT on the "good Iowa dirt" list and maybe KSPZ (ex-KIOA)....at least to the west.

You can also extend that to far western Illinois with WCAZ-990 Carthage, even though it's 1kw. On a good car radio, you could get the station all the way to the St. Louis metro, plus almost to Champaign on the east. I've even heard at least a faint WCAZ daytime signal on two past visits to southwest Wisconsin (specifically the Mineral Point area).

And even under the slop of 550 KTRS, I have heard KWMT faintly (and occasionally with a decent signal when not around noise) even in the middle of the Springfield city limits on my car radio. (Once I get out in the country, it's a different story especially north and west of the city).

 

[gr8oldies]

The little stations that came in from deep into Missouri and Iowa were simply amazing when I lived in the Quincy/Hannibal area. Every 250 watter was "Regional Radio". The bluffs attenuated some signals on the Quincy side (including/especially KMOX). I could have a weak signal from WLS during the day, cross over the bridge to West Quincy and it became much stronger.

 

[Shannon]

Don't forget KMOX, St. Louis. Covers most of the Midwest at night.

I remember getting off the overnight shift at KULF, Houston at 5:30am and listening to Larry Lujack on WLS, Chicago clear as a bell, on my car radio.

Jim Shannon

 

[cyberdad]

The WDAE tower piers are sitting in salt water.
They have always had a huge signal. The difference in coverage between 5kW and 10kW isn't that much.

I had been thinking that WDAE had been authorized at a higher power than 5kw. So I checked, and sure enough, they're at 5.6kw....not enough where 99% of people would notice any difference. But if what they're actually using is now 11kw plus change, it might just be enough to penetrate parts of the New Orleans metro. Or perhaps WJDX' signal has degraded a little over the last couple of decades. I visited WJDX in the mid-70s, and at that time they had a pretty much all-new physical plant. As it was, WDAE used to take over the channel just about at the point on the coast where Mississippi and Louisiana meet. So, maybe what's left of 11kw hitting the brackish water of Lake Ponchartrain is just enough oomph to make a difference. Just speculating. I certainly don't know.

 

[frankberry]

When WDAE replaced their old Blaw-Knox towers with shorter ones, the FCC granted slightly more power to compensate for the lower efficiency of the new towers.
I am under the impression that they no longer operate at 10kW (as they did when I was their Chief Engineer in the 80's).

 

[Ai4i]

(...I was their Chief Engineer in the 80's)

I keep learning more impressive things about our board members.
When did the call letters go from 1250 to 620?

 

[frankberry]

I found this information online:

"On January 14, 2000 at precisely 6:20 PM, the WDAE calls were moved to 620 kHz to allow for a stronger signal of the station’s Tampa Bay Lightning and other team sports broadcasts."