"Sooner or later, the audience ages out of the demo, and you need to prepare for it. They didn't." What would they do, exactly? Isn't the News/Talk format basically on a long stall, just waiting for their audience to get too old and for oblivion to set in? Being on FM improves TSL but you still end up with the same listeners! Do they think GenX will suddenly start listening after they reach 60?
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downfall of 770 WABC ,810 KGO and others ,what caused it ?
- Thread starter alok
- Start date
That train pulled out of the station in the early 2000's.
There was time to develop talent and subject focus back then that would improve the 25-54 appeal of commercial talk radio. It was not done. Stations stuck with what was working and did not plan for the future by researching how to beat the clock on modifying the approach.
Yet NPR has strong 25-54 numbers. There are under-50 listeners, mostly in the 35-50 age range and there are lots of them. NPR is mostly on FM, has much stronger podcast presence, and has better appeal today.
The biggest issue for many talkers is being on AM. But beyond that, they lost the window of opportunity to be relevant to slightly younger demos like NPR has managed to do.
In Washington DC there is a similar thing where all news WTOP-FM and NPR news/talk affiliate WAMU-FM are battling for the top ratings in the demos.
Thank goodness hybrid digital broadcasting on the AM band was there to save the day!! Oh, wait...nevermind. LOL
AM news/talk programming has suffered for four reasons, in my opinion:
- PPM, for the reasons Mr. Eduardo has articulately stated.
- Major market sports radio stations migrating to the FM dial. That move gave a lot of Men little reason or no reason to sample stations on the AM dial.
- Increased AM band noise and weakened audio fidelity. Deteriorating transmission plants & grounding systems have not been properly maintained, digital devices and LED lights are creating more noise on the AM band than ever, and the implementation of iBiquity's flawed hybrid digital technology (especially in its initial form) have all served to deteriorate audio quality & reception reliability.
- Fox News. There's less reason to tune into talk shows that largely air on the AM dial when one can hear the exact same views many hours of the day on cable TV.
AM news/talk programming has suffered for four reasons, in my opinion:
- PPM, for the reasons Mr. Eduardo has articulately stated.
- Major market sports radio stations migrating to the FM dial. That move gave a lot of Men little reason or no reason to sample stations on the AM dial.
- Increased AM band noise and weakened audio fidelity. Deteriorating transmission plants & grounding systems have not been properly maintained, digital devices and LED lights are creating more noise on the AM band than ever, and the implementation of iBiquity's flawed hybrid digital technology (especially in its initial form) have all served to deteriorate audio quality & reception reliability.
- Fox News. There's less reason to tune into talk shows that largely air on the AM dial when one can hear the exact same views many hours of the day on cable TV.
Yes, of course. By the end, the older hosts were no longer getting good ratings, and by then it was too late to make only a few tweaks.
None of this matters when it comes to attracting an audience. If the programming stinks, no one will hear the bumps or how slick the production work is. Put another way: Bad production can drive interested listeners away, but good production cannot bring in listeners who don't like the programming.
I can't express any opinion on KGO's programming specifically, because I never listened to them for any meaningful time.
The most fundamental problem today in news/talk is the selection of topics, and particularly an over-reliance on politics. And secondarily repetition day-to-day and host-to-host. If a potential listener thinks he/she can predict the topics and takes the host will have that day, why bother tuning in? And what makes the Brian Kilmeade show different than the Ben Shapiro show?
A few others have written on this thread that NPR has decent listenership among middle-aged adults. While certainly they do a fair amount of politics, it is mixed in with a much broader variety of voices and topics than what you'll get from WABC.
I do think the news/talk format as it has existed for 30 years is on a long decline with limited prospects for revival. A fundamental question: who will fill Limbaugh's spot whenever he retires?
One reason NPR has been successful is they don't put as much emphasis on a single host. For example, Robert Siegel, who had been with NPR for over 40 years, recently retired and was replaced, and the change had no effect on ratings. The reason is because the show didn't change. All Things Considered is still there, and has the same format, but Siegel no longer is one of the co-hosts. Having co-hosts allows for more flexibility in staffing, and allows for the audience to become familiar with a new voice, while still retaining the existing voices.
The other difference, and this is a big one, is that NPR doesn't focus on one subject. There are many other subjects to talk about besides politics. There are many other points of view to represent. When you diversify the voices and subjects, it appeals to a broader range of audience. This is also why all-news stations such as WTOP and KCBS continue to succeed. Commercial talk radio needs to address these issues and they need to do it quickly.
Even WAMU-FM the NPR News/Talk Affiliate in Washington DC had a host change. I remember Diane Rehm left her talk show in the past year and was replaced by former fill in host for KQED Newsroom and KQED Forum talent Joshua Johnson and to this day WAMU-FM is still in the top 5 ratings in the Washington D.C. radio market.
https://ratings.****************/cgi-bin/rol.exe/arb015
1.) I am 63 and "News" lost its credibility with me. Listening for a story which doesn't criticize the President and try to come of with "Impeachment and crime of the day" has gotten lame. If the format wants to keep listeners, stop becoming the "who do we hate today" practice. It has turned into no-talent sports team coverage.
2,) AM is only part of it. More cars are coming with HD-x built in and they are not filling in their audience holes from the translators. Alot of the HD spaces from different antennas within the cluster are unused.
3.) I gave this its own reason because of the last line. I love what Cox is doing in the Tampa Bay Market. 97.1 is in the Northern part of the Market and 102.5, at the Southern end. Each uses the other on the HD-2. Of course, that is going to be short lived since Cox sold their stations here and 97.1 will go to somebody else. The fluidity of the ownership of the properties lends a confusion to the listener of what they are doing.
4.) In-car connectivity is not yet a perfected technology and with throttling from the cell companies, buffering becomes worse than digital OTA drops and AM static.
5.) Report the news! The news is what IS - FACTS - not somebody's opinion trying to sell a book or get his/her name known as a career booster. (An obvious leftover from the fallout from Watergate)
6.) On a personal note, too bad iHeart, at the time, couldn't have taken WABC instead of WOR. Upheavals, such as that, sometimes give the listener a reason to "jump ship'. At that point, the numbers, used to sell the station, become irrelevant and they see that later on.
Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
2,) AM is only part of it. More cars are coming with HD-x built in and they are not filling in their audience holes from the translators. Alot of the HD spaces from different antennas within the cluster are unused.
3.) I gave this its own reason because of the last line. I love what Cox is doing in the Tampa Bay Market. 97.1 is in the Northern part of the Market and 102.5, at the Southern end. Each uses the other on the HD-2. Of course, that is going to be short lived since Cox sold their stations here and 97.1 will go to somebody else. The fluidity of the ownership of the properties lends a confusion to the listener of what they are doing.
4.) In-car connectivity is not yet a perfected technology and with throttling from the cell companies, buffering becomes worse than digital OTA drops and AM static.
5.) Report the news! The news is what IS - FACTS - not somebody's opinion trying to sell a book or get his/her name known as a career booster. (An obvious leftover from the fallout from Watergate)
6.) On a personal note, too bad iHeart, at the time, couldn't have taken WABC instead of WOR. Upheavals, such as that, sometimes give the listener a reason to "jump ship'. At that point, the numbers, used to sell the station, become irrelevant and they see that later on.
Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
You make a lot of valid points. In particular with point 6, WOR and WABC are similar facilities. WABC has a slightly better signal in some areas. But both stations are basically doing the same format with similar results. WOR is just slightly better. Both having an aging audience. WOR has really struggled in morning drive. They have not been successful with a host whose last name is not Gambling. Losing Rush & Hannity hurt WABC, but having both shows hasn't helped WLS in Chicago.
As far as the news (points 1 & 5), the New York market is fortunate in that it has two all-news stations. That's a format that hasn't worked in southern markets. They tried all-news in Atlanta, hired a lot of former CNN radio people, and the station did poorly and was ultimately sold to EMF. As I said in another post, all-news provides lots of other subjects besides national politics. But its expensive to do. So not a likely choice for AM radio in a market like Tampa.
Actually the numbers do not support that. KGO and KQED were neck and neck in the early part of the new Millennium. There came a point, almost simultaneous with the 2008-2009 roll out of the PPM, where KGO just fell apart all on its own. KQED did not benefit significantly. Even when KGO completely dropped talk for news a few years later, the effect on KQED was minimal.
I can attribute KQED's increases over the last three decades to a gradual improvement in the station's programming and, perhaps, a bit to the change in political and social perspectives in the market as a whole.
KGO fell on its own sword; it did not require outside help.
Yes I remember you mentioned 2003 specifically when KGO was #1 and KQED was #4 at the time.
As of 2019 the only clue that Disney/ABC is involved in Radio is the ownership of ESPN Sports/Talk stations like KSPN Los Angeles and WEPN New York.
But in NYC WEPN has to compete against Entercom O&O WFAN for Sports/talk programming.
The question here is why did Disney decide to only hold on to ESPN Sports Talk affiliates and in the the now former Radio Disney affiliates when they Divested the ABC Radio stations to citadel in 2006-2007? I know the only Radio Disney affiliate on OTA radio is 1110 KRDC-AM Los Angeles as of 2019. The other Radio Disney affiliates were divested to different owners happened earlier in this decade.
The vast majority of ABC having any involvement on OTA Radio is mainly in the form of ESPN Sports/Talk affiliates as of 2019.
But in NYC WEPN has to compete against Entercom O&O WFAN for Sports/talk programming.
The question here is why did Disney decide to only hold on to ESPN Sports Talk affiliates and in the the now former Radio Disney affiliates when they Divested the ABC Radio stations to citadel in 2006-2007? I know the only Radio Disney affiliate on OTA radio is 1110 KRDC-AM Los Angeles as of 2019. The other Radio Disney affiliates were divested to different owners happened earlier in this decade.
The vast majority of ABC having any involvement on OTA Radio is mainly in the form of ESPN Sports/Talk affiliates as of 2019.
Not true. ABC News Radio is syndicated to hundreds of OTA radio stations nationally by SkyView. This way they get their content & commercials on radio stations without the expense and aggravation of owning towers and transmitters.
They also produce several 24/7 satellite delivered formats to small market radio stations seeking to save talent costs. Plus various other music and entertainment specials and services:
http://www.abcradio.com/
So while Disney sold all of their radio stations and the ABC Radio Network to Citadel in 2006, and it was then sold to Cumulus in 2011, they retained the name ABC Radio Network and when the license to that name ended a few years ago, they relaunched it themselves.
Your Correct I forgot to mentioned that ABC Radio Network does exist as a skyview distribution agreement and also the current ABC Radio is also on Live X Live app for most parts of the country. I was too focused on the Disney Owned Stations side of the argument even though you are correct that ABC Radio does have affiliation deals most notably WTOP-FM Washington D.C. Plus the Current ABC Radio is one of Disney's podcast brands.
https://www.livexlive.com/station/abc-news
https://abcradio.com/podcasts/
Agree 100 percent Jeff on comments 1 and 5 .they need to stop talking fake BS and get their facts right Maybe will no more layoffs in the media if they follow through properly ..I've talk to people and they are sick and tired of it and tune out altogether..When the news break on the radio /TV comes up.I shut the radio/TV off.I used too listen to News 880 WCBS everyday.Now maybe once a month I tune in...
Not only expensive, but programming intensive. A 3 minute song repeated every 45 minutes, chips away at the time between breaks. But, how much local stuff can you find in a market of 1 million or less? With 16 million people, it becomes a "little easier".
It becomes worse when airing questionable material assumed to be understood by the audience as hardened facts. Which brings up another problem. Why do we try to put the best signal, the best sound in processing and the best songs on the music formatted stations, but, are not as discriminating when it comes to News content?
Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
How did the departures of Leonard Lopate and Tom Ashbrook affect ratings?
Depends on who you mean by "we." Engineering is a science, but in today's world, even science becomes controversial. Consider HD Radio. There are lots of people against it, and want it shut down. A lot of time & research is put into song selection, and everybody has an opinion about those songs. Why not play deeper playlists, and that sort of thing. As for news content, it's just like music choice, everybody has an opinion. Once again, who do you mean by "we?"
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