Liz Mantel Joins The Wolf Buffalo

[tbolt909]

Which is? You constantly complain about formats, and when they change, you continue to complain. Just what format would you put on that signal? Or any signal? Just what format is going to bring in those new listeners that you say radio isn't serving? What will bring in enough of them to actually pay the bills, let alone make money?

As you and others say, Radio is a business. The entertainment part is no longer relevant. Even you acknowledge that TSL and interest in Radio is waning. Recycling tired formats obviously isn't fixing the problem. Getting younger listeners interested is almost impossible. It would be possible to reach 35-55 year olds who have left Radio because the presentation and playlists are abysmal. Nobody notices format changes anymore because people think Radio is a joke.

What format change in Buffalo has worked recently? Switching JOY to MIX to BREEZE has been futile. WBUF is doing worse than JACK. Entercom/Audacy has tried 4 formats on 107.7. The Lake, WBEN Simulcast, Alternative and now Country. Go look up the results. If the revenue is so great, why the constant format changes? These companies are in debt anyway, so the local revenue won't make a dent.

WECK is successful as an Oldies format and they deserve credit for that. They are serving an audience that Corporate Radio ignores...

 

[DN14224]

As you and others say, Radio is a business.

Radio ALWAYS has been a business. You think the owners pre-Telecom '96 weren't in it to make money? Of course they were.

What's different now is that Wall Street dictates how most companies operate. You don't satisfy the investors, they take their money elsewhere. And contrary to your thoughts- the local revenue DOES make a dent.

 

[davideduardo]

The fact is that even though it's perennially a market leader, WYRK gets a 9 share in Buffalo. Which means 91% don't listen.

It's cume rating averages around 18, with about 175,000 cume in a market of 1,178,000 persons. More like 80% don't listen... still a lot of people who did not know Liz.

 

[davideduardo]

Getting younger listeners interested is almost impossible. It would be possible to reach 35-55 year olds who have left Radio because the presentation and playlists are abysmal. Nobody notices format changes anymore because people think Radio is a joke.

Strange, but in the diary markets 91% of 35-55 persons listen to radio; that is off about 3% from the year 2000.

While 18-34 is off a bit more, it is nowhere near "nobody".

You are trying to make all your points using inaccurate data.

 

[SirRoxalot]

As you and others say, Radio is a business. The entertainment part is no longer relevant. Even you acknowledge that TSL and interest in Radio is waning. Recycling tired formats obviously isn't fixing the problem. Getting younger listeners interested is almost impossible. It would be possible to reach 35-55 year olds who have left Radio because the presentation and playlists are abysmal. Nobody notices format changes anymore because people think Radio is a joke.

What format change in Buffalo has worked recently? Switching JOY to MIX to BREEZE has been futile. WBUF is doing worse than JACK. Entercom/Audacy has tried 4 formats on 107.7. The Lake, WBEN Simulcast, Alternative and now Country. Go look up the results. If the revenue is so great, why the constant format changes? These companies are in debt anyway, so the local revenue won't make a dent.

WECK is successful as an Oldies format and they deserve credit for that. They are serving an audience that Corporate Radio ignores...

You still haven't answered the question. What would YOU do? What format will move the needle and pay its way? This is the real world. You have to pay the bills. You're Mr. Negative. How about a positive suggestion for a change. Or any kind of suggestion on how you'd solve the problem.

 

[AceBiscuits]

You still haven't answered the question. What would YOU do? What format will move the needle and pay its way? This is the real world. You have to pay the bills. You're Mr. Negative. How about a positive suggestion for a change. Or any kind of suggestion on how you'd solve the problem.

It's easier to whine, moan, and be negative. Wouldn't be satisfied with anything but The Lake even though there is no business logic behind it.

 

[TheBigA]

It's easier to whine, moan, and be negative.

Those who can...do. Those who can't...complain.

 

[tbolt909]

You still haven't answered the question. What would YOU do? What format will move the needle and pay its way? This is the real world. You have to pay the bills. You're Mr. Negative. How about a positive suggestion for a change. Or any kind of suggestion on how you'd solve the problem.

I doubt that the folks who choose and implement Radio formats are looking for ideas on this forum. They are quite satisfied with the status quo. It's almost time for Xmas Muzak anyway...

 

[SirRoxalot]

I doubt that the folks who choose and implement Radio formats are looking for ideas on this forum. They are quite satisfied with the status quo. It's almost time for Xmas Muzak anyway...

Nice deflection, but you STILL haven't answered the question. Until you propose some kind of realistic answer all you're doing is whining and admitting that you don't have a solution.

 

[davideduardo]

I doubt that the folks who choose and implement Radio formats are looking for ideas on this forum. They are quite satisfied with the status quo. It's almost time for Xmas Muzak anyway...

And the Christmas "Muzak" gets astounding shares... usually double digit ones when only one station does "All Christmas"... and they pump up two whole PPM books in the process. Guess who gets bought for the next season's Christmas buys?

What you find as abhorrent is liked and even loved by listeners. The LA station that does All Christmas cumes nearly a third of the market's adult population during the Holiday book.

What idea do you have that would allow one of the stations that loses share in the Christmas season to cut their loss or even gain an alternative audience?

We are all looking for ideas. Not just new formats, as time as told us that each decade yields about 3 new, original or highly modified formats on average. We are looking for new ways to package the music that listeners tell us they want to hear. We are looking for promotions that sell our brand both on "regular" radio and on new media. We are looking for anything new or even a new twist on the old. What ideas do you have?

Or are you just a verbal sniper?

 

[davideduardo]

Nice deflection, but you STILL haven't answered the question. Until you propose some kind of realistic answer all you're doing is whining and admitting that you don't have a solution.

I don't even find the deflection "nice". He took a cheap shot at a programming feature that gets double digit shares and cumes around a third of most market's adult listeners without offering an alternative. Listeners love it.

And then, of course, why would the station with the "Muzak Christmas" want to do anything different rather than dominating their market for over 6 weeks of the year?

 

[ckg279]

What does that flip have to do with Buffalo? Country has always been a tough format in NYC. It’s actually surprising it lasted this long. But it doesn’t mean Audacy will abandon all Country formats, especially if it takes a bite out of its competitors.

And it’s standard practice not to telegraph format changes. Yes (David E.) there are exceptions.

To answer your question: 2 of their shows(Katie & Company(10a-3pm)and Rob & Holly(7-midnight)),were coming in from WNSH(now WXBK). (Although as Big A noted, Rob & Holly are based at WYCD in Detroit.)

 

[ckg279]

Middays will continue to be done by Katie & company for a while. Afternoon drive comes from Chicago.

Rob & Holly are actually from Detroit. Not NY.

Thanks for the updates; I mentioned earlier where Scotty Kay's show is coming in-and in the brief time I've listening to it, it DID seem to be a bit customized for the Buffalo market.

 

[tbolt909]

And the Christmas "Muzak" gets astounding shares... usually double digit ones when only one station does "All Christmas"... and they pump up two whole PPM books in the process.

We are all looking for ideas. Not just new formats, as time as told us that each decade yields about 3 new, original or highly modified formats on average. We are looking for new ways to package the music that listeners tell us they want to hear. We are looking for promotions that sell our brand both on "regular" radio and on new media. We are looking for anything new or even a new twist on the old. What ideas do you have?

Xmas does work in the PPM areas. It hasn't had the same impact in Buffalo in recent years.

I have made suggestions for format ideas, but you dismiss them. They are only suited for Non commercial stations. The results don't lie. When commercial Radio has no room for stations that have a passionate listener base (KFOG in SF was just one example), then the future is dim. Many of these "well researched" formats aren't working. Since Corporate Radio won't invest in trying to sell older demos, the point is moot...

 

[TheBigA]

When commercial Radio has no room for stations that have a passionate listener base (KFOG in SF was just one example), then the future is dim. Many of these "well researched" formats aren't working. Since Corporate Radio won't invest in trying to sell older demos, the point is moot...

It's unfair to say commercial radio has "no room." There are people who have tried, Matt Pinfield tried to revive KFOG, but the interest and passion for the music and radio isn't there any more. The music community there isn't the same, and the Bammies went away. Even in the non-commercial world, it's hard for these stations to exist because they need listener support, and that's hard to get.

The problem with the older demos isn't a radio problem, but an advertiser problem. Buddy Shula has made it work for his station because of who he is and because he has diversified his business in a way that works for him. There are lots of stations in other markets that could duplicate what Buddy is doing in Buffalo, but it takes owners with passion like Buddy to do the work. There's no law that requires radio to be owned by corporations. There are lots of stations available for people with an interest.

 

[AceBiscuits]

We are all looking for ideas. Not just new formats, as time as told us that each decade yields about 3 new, original or highly modified formats on average. We are looking for new ways to package the music that listeners tell us they want to hear. We are looking for promotions that sell our brand both on "regular" radio and on new media. We are looking for anything new or even a new twist on the old. What ideas do you have?

Or are you just a verbal sniper?

I just don't get how thread after thread there is just a consistent bashing and negativity of anything anyone tries to do in this market or elsewhere, all tied back to the decline of commercial AAA in Buffalo, despite the fact that the product failed about 10 years ago. It isn't constructive and it derails the conversation.

 

[davideduardo]

Xmas does work in the PPM areas. It hasn't had the same impact in Buffalo in recent years.

That is because, to synchronize with the PPM "13 Month" system of 4-week measurements, the diary service moved from two un-measured weeks in the Christmas-New Years period plus two other weeks between the other survey periods to the 4 weeks off from earlier in December to just after the New Year. So about three weeks of Christmas programming is lost in the ratings.

But our logical assumption is that the Christmas music station in each diary market does just as well in those unmeasured weeks as the similarly programmed stations do in the PPM markets that are measured.

So your statement is erroneous. Christmas music does just as well in Buffalo... it just is not measured due to the diary system's 4 week hiatus.

I have made suggestions for format ideas, but you dismiss them. They are only suited for Non commercial stations. The results don't lie. When commercial Radio has no room for stations that have a passionate listener base (KFOG in SF was just one example), then the future is dim. Many of these "well researched" formats aren't working. Since Corporate Radio won't invest in trying to sell older demos, the point is moot...

KFOG had been on a long and tedious descent for over a decade, somewhat in step with the changing demographics of the market which is not just over a third non-Hispanic white. So you picked a terrible example because the market for that format in San Francisco simply became so small that the station was no longer on the buy list of agency accounts... and that is a market with limited non-agency business.

As mentioned before, new products, whether they are radio formats or laundry detergent, have a high failure rate. There is nothing unusual for a new format or format variant not to work.

The formats you suggest for older demos are not going to happen. And it is not because radio won't "invest" in trying to sell to older demos. It's because advertisers any larger than small single location businesses have agencies and there is very little or no agency business in radio for 55 and over.

CBS Television has spent millions and millions over the last 7 or 8 years trying to go to advertisers to get them to have their agencies buy 25-64 instead of 18-49. This has been done at the lever of the head of CBS meeting with the head of P&G or GM, not at the lower levels. There has been no positive result. Advertisers look at where brand preferences are formed and where the most product is sold. They don't buy 50+ in TV any more than they used to.

If the TV network that has been the industry leader during most decades of the medium's life can't change advertiser patterns, habits and preferences, local radio stations surely can not do it either.

This is why formats like Music of Your Life, Beautiful Music, Smooth Jazz, AAA have died or are almost dead... they aged out and stopped being attractive to advertisers.

 

[davideduardo]

I just don't get how thread after thread there is just a consistent bashing and negativity of anything anyone tries to do in this market or elsewhere, all tied back to the decline of commercial AAA in Buffalo, despite the fact that the product failed about 10 years ago. It isn't constructive and it derails the conversation.

And the decline and demise of AAA was not a radio failure... it was the aging of the AAA music's listener base with no new, younger listeners coming in. Advertisers that use agencies generally don't even look at 55 and older, and that is where the revenue starts dropping.

Sure, there are local agencies and local direct accounts. But the larger the market, the fewer big direct accounts there are and "local" agencies tend to be modeled after the bigger national shops to be competitive.

This is the old story that says that William Franis Sutton was asked by reporter Mitch Ohnstad why he robbed banks. According to Ohnstad, he replied, "Because that's where the money is".

Radio, too, programs where the money is.

 

[Rusty Bridges]

Or are you just a verbal sniper?

Verbal Sniper? Wasn't that one of the bands featured at the last Alt 107.7 Kerfuffle show?

 

[four4rock]

And the decline and demise of AAA was not a radio failure... it was the aging of the AAA music's listener base with no new, younger listeners coming in. Advertisers that use agencies generally don't even look at 55 and older, and that is where the revenue starts dropping.

Sure, there are local agencies and local direct accounts. But the larger the market, the fewer big direct accounts there are and "local" agencies tend to be modeled after the bigger national shops to be competitive.

This is the old story that says that William Franis Sutton was asked by reporter Mitch Ohnstad why he robbed banks. According to Ohnstad, he replied, "Because that's where the money is".

Radio, too, programs where the money is.

Relative to the market size outlook, do any of these "formats" and/or radio/programming aggregators have substantive market-size differences for each "program"/"format"? That is to say, does X, Inc that produces format 123, alter that format in any material manner when it is in a small market versus a large market? Or do they assume one-size-fits-all-no-matter-what?

Also, are there any 24/7/365 Christmas music stations in the continental United States?

Also, also, not sure what the above really has to do with WNY's new country station, but for me I've found myself now at the probably roughly 75/25 point in favor of the new guys... quite a shift from virtually 100% at the "incumbents." Couldn't tell you who advertises on either... don't really care. LOL