Seattle's "Rock" Station

[Kelly A]

If you are wealthy I understand your point. But most today are struggling and depend on walmart for low prices. I am not sure why you don’t find this obvious.

As it relates to radio; Bill is a station/small business owner within in a smaller community. Walmart might have low prices, but has been a small business destroyer. Other than Walmart employing local's, Bill's statement is entirely correct. Walmart gives zero back to the community, including not advertising in local papers, or on local radio.
All the 'local small market radio and TV is so important to the community' talk on this site means companies like Walmart where you can buy your tidy whitey's next Saturday, have made it that much harder to keep the stations you cherish so much, in business.

 

[semoochie]

As it relates to radio; Bill is a station/small business owner within in a smaller community. Walmart might have low prices, but has been a small business destroyer. Other than Walmart employing local's, Bill's statement is entirely correct. Walmart gives zero back to the community, including not advertising in local papers, or on local radio.
All the 'local small market radio and TV is so important to the community' talk on this site means companies like Walmart where you can buy your tidy whitey's next Saturday, have made it that much harder to keep the stations you cherish so much, in business.

Then, there's that business about child labor but don't get me started.

 

[bossbill]

Thank you Kelly. If anyone wishes to talk about this topic (off the radio site), come on down, I'll buy you lunch, and show you an example of what I'm talking about.

 

[fordranger797]

It’s too bad to see what has happened to many of the towns in Grays Harbor these days. Aberdeen and Hoqiuam are full of charm and extremely kind and hospitable people, but unfortunately there isn’t much of an industry there anymore. I remember going to stores like Swanson’s on road trips through there as a kid, but I don’t even think that store exists anymore. Of course, Walmart has destroyed the small business, and the Walmart in Aberdeen seems to be a magnet for many of the town addicts.

 

[seatownmedia]

I understand the pain. But if you can buy something at Walmart for 25 percent less you will do it. Simple economics here. I am not saying it is right, but it is the reality. I am for supporting locals if you can afford it but most can’t.

 

[The New Chico]

You both have good points. Wages have been stagnant since roughly 1982. Unions have been demonized and stripped of their power. At the same time government labor enforcement efforts have been stigmatized and there has been a concentrated effort of deregulation frenzy. All of this is absolutely not by accident. And I am not necessarily saying it is all evil...money and power tend to flow upwards throughout history. A middle class is actually a historical oddity- but from the late 40s to the early 80s or so we indeed had a powerful middle class in the US and through much of the western world.

Now we don't. Not a coincidence that we started really seeing the rise of the big box retailer during this same time period. Folks needed bargains just to keep afloat. Walmart "got" it better than just about anybody; smart people there. Their buying power could crush the locals. They focused their efforts in areas that were stagnant or even losing population- the mill closed, the industry left, the farms don't need as many hands due to automation- these were the places where Walmart made their beachhead, where the local mom and pops were already weak and the locals needed a deal wherever they could get it. Think Omak, Longview, Shelton, Aberdeen, Colville, Othello.

Now the folks who run the company are indeed that most exquisite of hypocrite- they are all about "privatizing profits and socializing debts." All about the free market when it suits them, then the majority of their employees are advised to get their health care through the government. I don't shop Walmart- I have that luxury and have consciously made that choice. But I get it; your kids have to eat. I would recommend and encourage one and all to see the documentary "Walmart: The High Costs of Low Prices" It's a real eye opener.

Video didn't kill the radio (star) station. It was Walmart and to a lesser extent several of the other big boxers who followed in their footsteps. But it was also all the folks who gleefully drove down the wages of the American middle class. The same folks who get on Fox News and scream "Socialism" at anybody who dares try to do anything to actually rebuild that middle class.

​

 

[davideduardo]

Now we don't. Not a coincidence that we started really seeing the rise of the big box retailer during this same time period. Folks needed bargains just to keep afloat. Walmart "got" it better than just about anybody; smart people there. Their buying power could crush the locals. They focused their efforts in areas that were stagnant or even losing population- the mill closed, the industry left, the farms don't need as many hands due to automation- these were the places where Walmart made their beachhead, where the local mom and pops were already weak and the locals needed a deal wherever they could get it. Think Omak, Longview, Shelton, Aberdeen, Colville, Othello.

That is not how Walmart started and grew. They began with the idea of offering the kind of store most of us in bigger cities had but in places like Rogers and Stutgart and Blytheville and Paragould. People could get the variety and pricing that they would have had to drive to Memphis or Pine Bluff or Little Rock to get otherwise. It was founded in 1962, well before many rural towns had Interstate Highway access and they were paying higher prices due to isolation.

They actually built in towns that were too small for a full Sears back in the day, and did well with a broader selection and better prices. It was not until they had put stores in all the smaller towns that they had the power to create their own pricing and enter the bigger markets competitively.

Now the folks who run the company are indeed that most exquisite of hypocrite- they are all about "privatizing profits and socializing debts." All about the free market when it suits them, then the majority of their employees are advised to get their health care through the government. I don't shop Walmart- I have that luxury and have consciously made that choice. But I get it; your kids have to eat. I would recommend and encourage one and all to see the documentary "Walmart: The High Costs of Low Prices" It's a real eye opener.

On the other hand, we needed a new microwave today; our built-in (and expensive) one died and was out of guarantee. Neither Best Buy nor Costco had one in stock and quoted 2 months for delivery at over $1600 installed. Instead, I logged onto WalMart and found a temporary one that is adorably cute for $54. They brought it to me within 2 hours.

So, in this case WalMart served me better than anyplace else could. Since no microwaves are made in the USA as labor costs are totally noncompetitive, no matter what I would buy something from Korea or China or Taiwan. So I went for the best price.

Video didn't kill the radio (star) station. It was Walmart and to a lesser extent several of the other big boxers who followed in their footsteps. But it was also all the folks who gleefully drove down the wages of the American middle class. The same folks who get on Fox News and scream "Socialism" at anybody who dares try to do anything to actually rebuild that middle class.

Middle class wages stagnated when the economies of the developed nations went global due to improved transportation and the development of nations ranging from Mexico to China to India to Japan to Thailand while US wages became so high we could not make anything that would compete in the rest of the world.

Example: the new minimum wage in interior Mexico is about $9 a day or around $45 a week. A California worker making minimum wage gets as much in 3 hours as a Mexican doing the same job gets in a full work week.

If you are going to blame anything for changes in the US economy, blame globalization and blame technology for making products made anywhere in the world marketable everywhere else.

 

[Kelly A]

I understand the pain. But if you can buy something at Walmart for 25 percent less you will do it. Simple economics here. I am not saying it is right, but it is the reality. I am for supporting locals if you can afford it but most can’t.

That's fine, then don't complain your local TV or radio stations don't provide enough local news or content, or eventually just go away.

When I sold one of my stations a few years ago, the community wanted to meet with us thinking they could get us to change our mind. After listening to their reasons why a local radio station was so important and will be missed, I responded with: Just listening to the station alone, doesn't pay the bills. I pointed out that the local Tru Value had been replaced with a Home Depot, which doesn't buy advertising on local radio. The local grocery store was closed due to Walmart moving in. Car dealers have consolidated, or closed. The ones remaining are mainly Internet sales. Other small businesses like restaurants and gyms come and go, and have been notoriously delinquent in paying for their ads.

 

[boombox4]

You're right, mainly because KISW operates in a large market. Spokane, by comparison, is a small/medium market. That's like someone arguing that the playlist on their phone is broader than a radio station. Whereas that may be a factual statement, it doesn't mean the music tastes of a population count served by a Class C radio station, is the same as yours.

Spokane also has three or four rock stations serving that smaller, 500K market. The dynamic is probably a bit different.

Seattle, with around 4 million, has just three stations playing some form of rock, with a couple others if you include HD2s (one of which apparently has made the ratings). If you include KEXP and KGRG-1, you can add two more. A lot of other cities in the US have even less rock stations than Seattle.

 

[CTListener]

That is not how Walmart started and grew. They began with the idea of offering the kind of store most of us in bigger cities had but in places like Rogers and Stutgart and Blytheville and Paragould. People could get the variety and pricing that they would have had to drive to Memphis or Pine Bluff or Little Rock to get otherwise. It was founded in 1962, well before many rural towns had Interstate Highway access and they were paying higher prices due to isolation.

They actually built in towns that were too small for a full Sears back in the day, and did well with a broader selection and better prices. It was not until they had put stores in all the smaller towns that they had the power to create their own pricing and enter the bigger markets competitively.

And, in the late '70s, they advertised in those little Arkansas cities' little newspapers, too. I was there to see it, believe me. But even back then, radio was not part of their plan. I can't recall hearing any Wal-Mart (as they were known then) ads on any station. My city of Stuttgart had 10,000 people, three supermarkets (Kroger, Safeway, Piggly Wiggly) and an IGA, but only at Wal-Mart could you find all the other stuff you needed for everyday life in one place. It wasn't just price; it was the convenience of not having to drive the length of South Main to get hardware, shoes, men's wear, ladies' wear, electronics, paint, at a half dozen separate stores. The Stuttgart Wal-Mart was practically next door to the Safeway. In the three years I lived and worked in the city, the only local shop I patronized regularly was the bookstore in the little strip mall at the south end of town. I can't recall ever buying anything downtown.

 

[Kelly A]

Spokane also has three or four rock stations serving that smaller, 500K market. The dynamic is probably a bit different.

One could easily argue that Spokane has an even bigger radio-saturation problem than Seattle. Too many stations dooking it out for the same advertising dollar. The only thing saturation does, is split that hard-fought dollar into much smaller pieces.

Seattle, with around 4 million, has just three stations playing some form of rock, with a couple others if you include HD2s (one of which apparently has made the ratings). If you include KEXP and KGRG-1, you can add two more. A lot of other cities in the US have even less rock stations than Seattle.

And similar to the Bay area; I attribute that to Seattle's predominantly white population.

 

[boombox4]

Then, there's that business about child labor but don't get me started.

Do you feel the same way about Costco, Target, et. al.? They get their products from the same sources as Walmart.

 

[boombox4]

You both have good points. Wages have been stagnant since roughly 1982. Unions have been demonized and stripped of their power. At the same time government labor enforcement efforts have been stigmatized and there has been a concentrated effort of deregulation frenzy. All of this is absolutely not by accident. And I am not necessarily saying it is all evil...money and power tend to flow upwards throughout history. A middle class is actually a historical oddity- but from the late 40s to the early 80s or so we indeed had a powerful middle class in the US and through much of the western world.

Now we don't. Not a coincidence that we started really seeing the rise of the big box retailer during this same time period. Folks needed bargains just to keep afloat. Walmart "got" it better than just about anybody; smart people there. Their buying power could crush the locals. They focused their efforts in areas that were stagnant or even losing population- the mill closed, the industry left, the farms don't need as many hands due to automation- these were the places where Walmart made their beachhead, where the local mom and pops were already weak and the locals needed a deal wherever they could get it. Think Omak, Longview, Shelton, Aberdeen, Colville, Othello.

Now the folks who run the company are indeed that most exquisite of hypocrite- they are all about "privatizing profits and socializing debts." All about the free market when it suits them, then the majority of their employees are advised to get their health care through the government. I don't shop Walmart- I have that luxury and have consciously made that choice. But I get it; your kids have to eat. I would recommend and encourage one and all to see the documentary "Walmart: The High Costs of Low Prices" It's a real eye opener.

Video didn't kill the radio (star) station. It was Walmart and to a lesser extent several of the other big boxers who followed in their footsteps. But it was also all the folks who gleefully drove down the wages of the American middle class. The same folks who get on Fox News and scream "Socialism" at anybody who dares try to do anything to actually rebuild that middle class.

​

The US economic rot started long before 1982, when US trade policy allowed Japan to dump their goods into the US and start the migration of US industry overseas (and south of the border, which started long before NAFTA). Unions in the US became lazy and corrupt and killed themselves, which didn't help the middle class any.

That said, the movement to box retail was inevitable, as you alluded to. They just finished off what the big malls started.

There are at least five big box retailers just within 20 minutes driving distance of the center of my city. I don't think any of them advertise on radio. Not sure if they advertise anywhere, aside from their in-store flyers (if they have them). Some may advertise on TV, but I don't watch TV, so I really don't know. None of them advertise on any of the websites I frequent, I know that much.

Retail has changed in the US, just as radio has changed from AM over a little transistor to something non-OTA you get via an app on your smartphone. Advertising has changed in the US, from stuff you'd see on a full page in the Seattle Times to a field of moving, animated pop ups on a national news website. It's called progress, although progress can have an uglier side, as I think all of us here could probably recognize.

Bossbill says Walmart killed retail and advertising in Aberdeen and Hoquiam, and as he's in the area and deals with the economy there, I'll take his word on that. He would know.

I think the state could have done a lot more to develop the region. After all, it has a good harbor and one good rail line connecting it to the I-5 corridor (with what looked like 110-120 pound rail).

For many of us Seattlesiders, Aberdeen is just a place you drive through to get to Ocean Shores or Westport. It should be more than that. When I'm there, I always stop for something to eat, or at least get a coffee and a burger. Something to experience the city. I like Aberdeen. I always wish it well.

 

[semoochie]

Do you feel the same way about Costco, Target, et. al.? They get their products from the same sources as Walmart.

I have never heard that about Costco or Target. If it's true then I certainly feel the same way! I'm against child slave labor, no matter who is involved! I'm not pointing fingers or anything but your question made me think of something: I'm always surprised when Republicans ask if I would feel the same way if it were a Democrat committing the offense and of course the answer is "yes"! It seems to me that when a Democrat commits something even inappropriate, the Democrats immediately launch an investigation(if that's what it takes)but if a Republican does something similar or worse, all the Republicans stand behind him, lie for him and somehow blame the Democrats! This happens far too often to call it an occasional occurrence. Sorry for the excursion.

 

[Kelly A]

I have never heard that about Costco or Target.

I've never have either. Did a search on line and found nothing, other than some disgruntled blogs from long ago.

 

[boombox4]

The products all come from the same sources: China, other developing and semi-developed nations. China, as we all know, has some curious labor practices. Apple got in trouble because of the labor conditions in their factories. There were stories about factory dorms, and the like. I don't know if that's changed much from the late 2000s and early 2010s when it was publicised. Hopefully so.

As for child labor, I know that has been an issue in some fourth world countries. In China, some of the problem is slave labor. Here's a 2019 NBC article featuring Costco's sourcing some clothing from that.:

Company making Costco baby pajamas flagged for forced labor

The Chinese manufacturer was accused of forcing ethnic minorities locked in an internment camp to sew clothes against their will.

www.nbcnews.com

This article states that Chinese cotton in general, which may end up in all sorts of clothing shipped Stateside (one in three garments sold in the US in 2019 came from China) may have come from some slave labor.:

Clothing made by Chinese forced labor is likely being sold in the US

Products made by the forced labor of Chinese Muslims detained in “reeducation” camps in its Xinjiang region could be making their way to the US and other countries.

qz.com

This 2014 article talks about both Walmart and Costco sourcing shrimp from slave labor, which both companies curtailed when they found out.:

Shrimp slaves: Walmart, Costco act against forced labor

Report: Forced labor used to produce shrimp sold by Costco, Wal-Mart and other top stores.

www.usatoday.com

These massive retailers get container after container of goods from all over the world. It is obvious that they can't keep track of every single item's source, although it looks like they try, or at least they act when its brought to their attention.

Anyway, this all has little to do with radio.

Like I said earlier, retail has changed, and consequently, advertising has changed. Even in the cities, it's not easy for small stores to stay afloat, because of the big malls, box stores, and online retail. I'm sure that affects radio, and other advertising mediums, too. My section of King County used to have two independent chains of newspapers, supported by local advertisers. That's all gone. Everything's changed. I think Mr. BTurner's postings here on RD about keeping it real with the local advertisers probably is the only way a lot of stations can keep the ads on the air.

There are probably a lot of other smaller city radio people who would say the same thing. I'm sure it's not easy, either. I have tons of respect for the advertising people who can keep the business going. I never was good with sales. It takes a certain, optimistic personality to do that sort of thing.

 

[Kelly A]

The products all come from the same sources: China, other developing and semi-developed nations. China, as we all know, has some curious labor practices. Apple got in trouble because of the labor conditions in their factories.

Apple doesn't own factories in China. Chinese electronics builing Apple products are companies run by Foxconn.

As for child labor, I know that has been an issue in some fourth world countries. In China, some of the problem is slave labor. Here's a 2019 NBC article featuring Costco's sourcing some clothing from that.:

So were Trump neckties. Don't see you complaining about those

These massive retailers get container after container of goods from all over the world. It is obvious that they can't keep track of every single item's source, although it looks like they try, or at least they act when its brought to their attention.

And I'll bet there are a lot of those same items in your home right now.

Like I said earlier, retail has changed, and consequently, advertising has changed. Even in the cities, it's not easy for small stores to stay afloat, because of the big malls, box stores, and online retail. I'm sure that affects radio, and other advertising mediums, too. My section of King County used to have two independent chains of newspapers, supported by local advertisers. That's all gone. Everything's changed. I think Mr. BTurner's postings here on RD about keeping it real with the local advertisers probably is the only way a lot of stations can keep the ads on the air.

Mr Turner's example is not the norm, nor will it last forever. Anyone who assumes that because one AE selling for a small market station like the good ol' days will be that way a year or two from now, isn't paying attention.

There are probably a lot of other smaller city radio people who would say the same thing.

I know a lot of them, and was one. No, we wouldn't say the same thing.

 

[seatownmedia]

Again it doesn’t matter. Most consumers are hunters and they will find their pray at wal mart.

 

[boombox4]

Apple doesn't own factories in China. Chinese electronics builing Apple products are companies run by Foxconn.

So were Trump neckties. Don't see you complaining about those

And I'll bet there are a lot of those same items in your home right now.

Mr Turner's example is not the norm, nor will it last forever. Anyone who assumes that because one AE selling for a small market station like the good ol' days will be that way a year or two from now, isn't paying attention.

I was stating facts, KellyA and you're trying to make it overtly political.

I knew about Foxconn. And according to all the articles I read about what was happening there? Apple knew too. They didn't act until it was big news.

I don't have a Trump necktie. I don't wear neckties unless we're with a client. They're used, or my dad's old ones.

The point was Walmart isn't the devil, anymore than any of the other massive retailers that have driven the smaller retailers out of business. Costco doesn't exist to help mom and pop keep their store open. They put them out of business just like every other massive retailer does.

And we all know it affects radio.

I know a lot of them, and was one. No, we wouldn't say the same thing.

You wouldn't say it's tough to make a go of it in small town radio then. OK. Because that's what I said.

 

[davideduardo]

The point was Walmart isn't the devil, anymore than any of the other massive retailers that have driven the smaller retailers out of business. Costco doesn't exist to help mom and pop keep their store open. They put them out of business just like every other massive retailer does.

We can take this back to the era of the small town general store and the frontier trading post. Most of the changes in retail have been generated or caused by better transportation, the industrial revolution and the expansion of the consumer economy.

There was a time that you went to a store and could find only one or two different kinds of lanterns. Today, go to Amazon and look for "battery lamp" and you get "more than 30,000 results. Narrow your search."

As we got more products in every category, from breakfast cereals to light bulbs, we needed bigger stores. Sears and Penney's evolved into K-Mart and Woolco and they turned into Target and Walmart.

Who would have thought right after WW II that we could have a store just selling sheets and dinnerware and pillows and skillets that needed an average of 45,000 square feet of space?

square footage of average bed bath and beyond - Google Search

As things evolved at the retail level, at first it was a boon for small town radio stations. But as stores became national chains, the revenue base for such stations shrank. And then, around 1990, we got the massive effect of Docket 80-90 which overpopulated the dial with new stations in small markets and move ins in larger ones with no new revenue.

The disaster that was 80-90 resulted in a majority of U.S. radio stations being unprofitable. Gov'mint decided to allow everyone to own lots of stations, thinking that if you put a whole bunch in a single building it would make things better.

"We're from the government and we're here to help..."

And we all know it affects radio.

Any change in the way the consumer economy works affects radio. Radio's inflation adjusted revenue today is about 50% to 60% below what it was in Y2K.

You wouldn't say it's tough to make a go of it in small town radio then. OK. Because that's what I said.

What we have today is about half of all stations with lower gross annual income than the average Pizza Hut.