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In a future filled with electric cars, AM radio may be left behind (off-topic)

Right now EVs are little more than posh new toys for rich people.
That's complete BS. People who buy or lease a Kia Kona EV, Hyundai Ionic 5 or 6, Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt, or even a Tesla Model 3, are hardly rich.
Eventually, the car radio will probably be replaced by a screen with nothing but content apps. This station will have an app, that station will have an app, alongside the usual streaming service apps, video and audio podcast and v-log apps, and they all will be running irritating ads on your dashboard that you won't be able to skip, while they're mining your car for data they can use to sell you more stuff.
Apparently you haven't been in the market for a new car in the past ten years?
Where there are screens available, there is revenue potential.
The revenue potential is selling data about what you shop for on line.
 
To be clear (and I drive 104 new cars a year), nobody is running ads across the dashboard or even on the screen. If you're running the free version of Spotify or YouTube with advertising, that's not on the automaker.
 
This is how bad AM has gotten in my market (Greenville-Spartanburg, SC)

I can no longer get 1330 WYRD (5kw daytime ND), 1440 WGVL (5kw daytime ND), or 1070 WCSZ (50kw daytime, ND during the day) to lock when I’m WELL inside the main contour and about 15 miles from the stations. There is just too much interference noise. All I can get is IHeart’s WESC 660 which is daytime only at 5kw or 1260 WPJF at 5kw.
 
I may have said this somewhere before, but nobody seems to appreciate AM anymore. A well-run AM can still sound decent, and things can be done to improve the interference problems in EVs, but no one cares, citing this or that excuse. I get cost, but surely they can cut costs elsewhere? However, most cars didn't originally have radios at all (I don't think they were a standard feature until at least the 40s or 50s I think), so I guess we're coming full circle in a sense.

It's death by attrition. I'm sure there's things that could be done to get Gen Z interested in it, but nobody cares enough to try anything.

c
I completely agree with the point I think you're trying to make. Sure, AM has lots of noise and other issues, but I've argued for years that if people like the content, they'll go where it is, whether that's a 3 watt class D station or TikTok. I've never understood the push for FM translators. Sure, we've seen stations on AM move to FM successfully, but many of those were already successful formats before the move. If KEX were to return to FM, would I listen? no. If they were to go all news, would I listen? Likely. If they were to go all news on 1190 and then move to an FM frequency in a few years, would I follow? Yes, but that's because I was already a KEX listener before the move.
 
This is how bad AM has gotten in my market (Greenville-Spartanburg, SC)

I can no longer get 1330 WYRD (5kw daytime ND), 1440 WGVL (5kw daytime ND), or 1070 WCSZ (50kw daytime, ND during the day) to lock when I’m WELL inside the main contour and about 15 miles from the stations. There is just too much interference noise. All I can get is IHeart’s WESC 660 which is daytime only at 5kw or 1260 WPJF at 5kw.
Welcome to the way AM is becoming, especially at night.
 
I completely agree with the point I think you're trying to make. Sure, AM has lots of noise and other issues, but I've argued for years that if people like the content, they'll go where it is, whether that's a 3 watt class D station or TikTok.
Were that the case, you'd have AM success stories. There have been attempts to break the satellite talk cycle. Reading the Los Angeles forum here, you'll find significant boomer support for oldies at the time KSUR (AM 1260) was doing it. I think its best book was an 0.4. 6+ (where demos don't count).
 
I can no longer get 1330 WYRD (5kw daytime ND), 1440 WGVL (5kw daytime ND), or 1070 WCSZ (50kw daytime, ND during the day) to lock when I’m WELL inside the main contour and about 15 miles from the stations.
What do you consider to be the "main contour"? The ITU has stated that in urban areas, 15 mV/m is the minimum AM signal required for clean reception in most locations.
 
I completely agree with the point I think you're trying to make. Sure, AM has lots of noise and other issues, but I've argued for years that if people like the content, they'll go where it is, whether that's a 3 watt class D station or TikTok. I've never understood the push for FM translators. Sure, we've seen stations on AM move to FM successfully, but many of those were already successful formats before the move. If KEX were to return to FM, would I listen? no. If they were to go all news, would I listen? Likely. If they were to go all news on 1190 and then move to an FM frequency in a few years, would I follow? Yes, but that's because I was already a KEX listener before the move.

The listeners already made that decision four decades ago. There were really two things that, for lack of a better way of saying it, killed AM. The first was cities outgrew AM coverage, especially when you factor in directional antennas and nighttime patterns. Great programming doesn't matter when your audience can’t hear it. The other was the FCC deciding it would fit as many FM's as it could everywhere. If you were a successful AM, especially an AM music station, an FM would notice and would do the same thing. Plus, all those extra FM's meant many could narrowcast and do what the heritage AM's were doing better.
 
That's complete BS. People who buy or lease a Kia Kona EV, Hyundai Ionic 5 or 6, Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt, or even a Tesla Model 3, are hardly rich.

Apparently you haven't been in the market for a new car in the past ten years?

The revenue potential is selling data about what you shop for on line.
#1: Yes, they're rich. I live in a working class area. I see very few, if any, EVs anywhere. On the local freeway there may be some Teslas driving down from Bellevue, Redmond, and similar areas. Most people drive gas vehicles, and have owned them for a few years, because that presently is all they can afford.

#2: No, I haven't needed one. I've driven the same car for over15 years. And what car I drive is beside the point. The more that the car becomes another internet screen, and with more connectivity being standard in cars, the more data to be mined. And every app is mining some data, depending on the app.

#3: True, and that was my point. Wherever there are screens being used, there is data to mine. And it's not just what you shop for online. It's what you type into dialog boxes and forums. It is what news stories you look at. Which websites you go to. Whatever you type in a post on social media, that data is also used. Depends on the app, depends on the website.
 
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I completely agree with the point I think you're trying to make. Sure, AM has lots of noise and other issues, but I've argued for years that if people like the content, they'll go where it is, whether that's a 3 watt class D station ...
I think you could have made that argument successfully 10 or 15 years ago. Now that mobile streaming exists and a significant majority of Americans -- especially a significant majority of those age 18 to 50 -- have access to it, there's very little reason to put up with a scratch AM signal.

Before someone comes along and says "streaming audio doesn't work in West Flomaton, Alabama", I know: I said significant majority, not 99.99%.
 
#1: Yes, they're rich. I live in a working class area. I see very few, if any, EVs anywhere.
Based on your comments, I seriously doubt you would be able to identify an EV vehicle over a conventional internal combustion-powered one. In other words; to you a Kona gas looks just like a Kona EV, a Nissan Leaf looks like any other small car, so to you, all EV's are Tesla's Got it.

#2: No, I haven't needed one. I've driven the same car for over15 years. And what car I drive is beside the point.
Not besides the point. Goes to your understanding of modern vehicles. If you drove, say a 1987 Chrysler New Yorker, it would explain why you think EV's are only for the rich.

The more that the car becomes another internet screen, and with more connectivity being standard in cars, the more data to be mined. And every app is mining some data, depending on the app.
Auto manufacturers would get into a lot of trouble if they were encouraging people to surf their vehicle screens. As I mentioned, iPhones, Android phones, whatever, are accessible only when it comes to playing music apps, navigation, whatever. You can't check Amazon for camping gear or new shoes. Using search engines or buying something at Amazon are things that are captured. Just because you think all screens are equal, doesn't mean they are.
 
I was waiting in the car today, so I decided to try listening to 920 KVIN, and compare to it's online stream.

First of all, their stream uses a rather low bitrate, so it sounds mushy. Over the air, despite spillover from 910 and the lousy quality of the radio in general (sounds like a steep low pass filter at 4 kHz), I could tell that its quality sounded better overall. Certainly not mushy. I'm sure it would sound even better on a good radio (I'm getting a Sony SRF-A100 soon, and I'm eager to try it out), but clearly the market (fairly) decided that consumers want streaming first and foremost, so there's no incentive to put any money or effort into making AM sound good anymore (no more AMAX, for example).

I guess one positive thing in all this, at least for hobbyists, is that maybe once the AM band is completely abandoned, maybe the FCC will allow for higher power unlicensed broadcasting under Part 15 (say 1-10 watts or more with no antenna length limitations), since there would no longer be any commercial stations to interfere with.

Unless they make it a Ham band? That would be kind of unfair though. Hams already have lots of spectrum elsewhere.

c
 
I was waiting in the car today, so I decided to try listening to 920 KVIN, and compare to it's online stream.

First of all, their stream uses a rather low bitrate, so it sounds mushy. Over the air, despite spillover from 910 and the lousy quality of the radio in general (sounds like a steep low pass filter at 4 kHz), I could tell that its quality sounded better overall. Certainly not mushy.
I listened to KVIN this morning on my laptop. The use 64kbps MP3 coding, which is indeed low. And the processing of the stream is weird (probably non-existent?).

Even still, that stream sounds much better than any AM I can receive at my location.

I suspect the same is true for you, and you're just wearing rose-colored glasses.
 
Maybe so.

I happen to like AM, so I guess I'm an outlier, as I'm right in the middle of the "we prefer streaming" demographic.

I will admit that a well processed stream at a reasonable bitrate (>128kbps) can sound very good compared to AM and FM, though, so it's not like I don't appreciate this new technology, I just happen to prefer older tech instead because I like it better.

c
 
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Based on your comments, I seriously doubt you would be able to identify an EV vehicle over a conventional internal combustion-powered one. In other words; to you a Kona gas looks just like a Kona EV, a Nissan Leaf looks like any other small car, so to you, all EV's are Tesla's Got it.


Not besides the point. Goes to your understanding of modern vehicles. If you drove, say a 1987 Chrysler New Yorker, it would explain why you think EV's are only for the rich.


Auto manufacturers would get into a lot of trouble if they were encouraging people to surf their vehicle screens. As I mentioned, iPhones, Android phones, whatever, are accessible only when it comes to playing music apps, navigation, whatever. You can't check Amazon for camping gear or new shoes. Using search engines or buying something at Amazon are things that are captured. Just because you think all screens are equal, doesn't mean they are.
Look, I live in a working class area, and -- like you -- I understand basic economics. New EVs average over $65K, far beyond the reach of the average American salary ($36K a year), especially when inflation for most necessities (like food) has been hovering around 30% over the past two-year period, since 2021. New car sales in general have dropped over the past year and a half. Some of that is due to supply chain issues and availability. But a lot of it is due to inflation. You seem to think that the average American is more loaded than they really are.

Income inequality economics aside, there is also the lack of practicability.

Most apartment complexes in major metros, where millions of Americans live, don't have AC outlets located near the tenants' parking spaces. A lot of the spaces are out in the weather, maybe uncovered, and the nearest AC outlet is inside the closest apartment or condo, maybe 80 feet or more away. People I know who live in many of the numerous apartment and condo complexes in SKC have that situation. Other apartment complexes have parking garages, with no outlets there, either. The landlords probably aren't going to dish out hundreds of thousands to have every tenant space provided with outlets, and the tenants themselves probably don't have the spare income to buy any of the $30K~ models you mentioned upthread, especially if there is no outlet handy where they live.

So right now, the people who are most apt to purchase an EV live in a high value condo complex (with individual garages), or they are individual homeowners who own houses. And they are people to whom inflation is a minor deal.

If you own a house in most major metros of the US -- where most Americans live -- you probably have assets that put you into the top 10% of Americans, easily, and your income level isn't far behind. Top 10% is rich. And even many of those homeowners today probably don't have the spare income to drop down $60K (even in payments, insurance, etc.) for a new car. Most Americans don't have $1000 spare to handle emergency car repairs.

But those homeowners who probably have the incomes to buy new vehicles are in the top 10% to top 5%, especially if the value of their assets is concerned. That means they're rich. They're definitely rich compared to the working class, who are scraping to get by, and who number probably in the hundreds of millions.

Understood on your last comment. For the sake of motoring safety, I hope it stays that way.

To bring this back to topic: By the time the infrastructure is worked out, to where the tens of millions of apartment and condo tenants and owners have easy access to AC outlets at every parking stall, and by the time that inflation drops and people have more income available -- by that time, AM radio will be further on its way out the door. It may take 15 to 20 years to get the infrastructure and economics of EV ownership available to the average American, and in 15 or 20 years AM will be a no-show, or close to it. The remaining AM stations will have to depend on streaming. Maybe enough of them will be translator only.

But people won't be tuning AM in their cars. Most aren't now.
 
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I listened to KVIN this morning on my laptop. The use 64kbps MP3 coding, which is indeed low. And the processing of the stream is weird (probably non-existent?).

Even still, that stream sounds much better than any AM I can receive at my location.

I suspect the same is true for you, and you're just wearing rose-colored glasses.
Or he doesn't like hearing highly compressed digital data, especially if it's not processed to compensate for the compression artifacts (which really can't be eliminated anyway). The 'squirrelies' we used to call them.
 
#1: Yes, they're rich. I live in a working class area. I see very few, if any, EVs anywhere. On the local freeway there may be some Teslas driving down from Bellevue, Redmond, and similar areas. Most people drive gas vehicles, and have owned them for a few years, because that presently is all they can afford.
Um, what? There are gas vehicles that cost a boatload more than the listed EVs.
 
Look, I live in a working class area, and -- like you -- I understand basic economics. New EVs average over $65K, far beyond the reach of the average American salary ($36K a year), especially when inflation for most necessities (like food) has been hovering around 30% over the past two-year period, since 2021. New car sales in general have dropped over the past year and a half. Some of that is due to supply chain issues and availability. But a lot of it is due to inflation. You seem to think that the average American is more loaded than they really are.
Scroll down for MSRP's:

I don't see any "average $65K" pricing on these models.
Also, most low income people likely aren't buying new cars, period. Even if they did, there's something to be said about the lower long term maintenance costs and reliability EV's provide. That said, buying an EV is different that just looking for 'basic transportation'. For example; many businesses and offices in Portland, have EV charging stations some of them complimentary, some even solar powered. If one commutes between home and a workplace with EV charging, an EV makes excellent sense.

But people won't be tuning AM in their cars. Most aren't now.
And that we agree.
 
Look, I live in a working class area, and -- like you -- I understand basic economics. New EVs average over $65K, far beyond the reach of the average American salary ($36K a year),
The average American wage hasn't been $36K since 2005. In 2021 (most recent available), it was $60,575.

National Average Wage Index

As for EVs, here are the ten best-selling EVs in the country for 2023 (up to the third quarter) and their base price:

1. Tesla Model Y: $54,990
2. Tesla Model 3: $42,990
3. Ford Mustang Mach-E: $45,995
4. Tesla Model S: $89,990
5. Chevrolet Bolt: $26,500
6. Tesla Model X: $99,990
7. Hyundai IONIQ 5: $41,450
8. Kia EV6: $48,700
9. Volkswagen ID4: $38,995
10. Nissan Leaf: $28,040

We should note, too, that many of these vehicles are eligible for $7,500 in tax rebates.
 
@boombox4 That's exactly right!
It's one thing to have a frequency response and noise floor far surpassing those of even best-case scenario AM reception, but it's another altogether for it to sound clean without lossy compression artifacts and other forms of digital noise.

Hence Reason #1 why I tend to prefer AM despite it's obvious inferiority: for all the things that do happen w/re sound processing (compression, EQ, limiting, clipping, pre-emphasis, etc.), one thing that most stations don't apply to their OTA signals is lossy MP3 or AAC compression, and when they do, they do it such that the artifacts are minimized.

I've always been pickier than many regarding MP3's so-called "squirrelies" though; If more people were so picky, I suspect that low-bitrate MP3 and AAC streams wouldn't be as common as they are.

In other words, if we're gonna be stuck with digital streaming, let's get it right by eliminating all the squirrelies!

c
 
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