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Rimshots or weak signals that outkick their coverage

Heaven forbid a station without a 100,000 watt signal and a giant corporate budget tries to make a buck.
But getting back to my prior comment; just because you like the station or it shows up in an occasional book, doesn't mean it could be considered financially successful. Some on this discussion board see ratings, in particular 6+, as some sort of success scoreboard. It doesn't work that way. What 6+ ratings don't reveal, is whether the station is consistently serving a particular audience in the demographic that potential advertisers want to reach. In other words; if the 6+ audience being counted is too old or young, then there's just as much a problem as having low 6+ ratings. Also as David mentioned; success is determined by having consistent in-demo ratings over several books. An occasional ratings bounce doesn't translate into some ratioed amount of money through the door.
Several years ago, when radio was the only thing around, a colleague purchased a couple of FM rimshots. They spent a pretty substantial amount of capital on rebuilding the technical infrastructure, had a solid programming strategy, plus spent quite a bit on outside promotion. When coming online with the new format, they definitely saw what amounts to a 'sample pop', settling out over a couple of books to a much lower share. Following up with focus groups, it was determined that their commuting in-car audience lost interest because the station coverage wasn't predictable, so many commuters essentially gave up.
Now of course you have streaming, so if a rimshot station streams, the full market signal is less important, provided there's programming that listeners of the correct demo will seek out via a stream.
 
But getting back to my prior comment; just because you like the station or it shows up in an occasional book, doesn't mean it could be considered financially successful. Some on this discussion board see ratings, in particular 6+, as some sort of success scoreboard. It doesn't work that way. What 6+ ratings don't reveal, is whether the station is consistently serving a particular audience in the demographic that potential advertisers want to reach. In other words; if the 6+ audience being counted is too old or young, then there's just as much a problem as having low 6+ ratings. Also as David mentioned; success is determined by having consistent in-demo ratings over several books. An occasional ratings bounce doesn't translate into some ratioed amount of money through the door.

Well goodness, I had no idea radio was so complicated! Gosh golly shucks you sure opened my eyes!
That's sarcasm, of course. I worked in the business for over 30 years and understand how it works. Perhaps before the next time I comment about the relative success of a station, I'll ask for a copy of the ratings breakdown and the financials of each and every station so you won't come at me with this "oh you poor, stupid fool" attitude.

Yes, I know that 6+ doesn't tell the whole story. I indicated that (unless I do some digging) I didn't have ready access to the breakdowns for each and every demo, but in your rush to "radiosplain" things, you missed that I already pointed that out. As for what counts as financially successful, ratings don't tell the whole story, as you are well aware. A small signal with low overhead can turn a profit. If it were not possible, then the radio landscape would be littered with silent rim shot signals and AM stations that couldn't keep the lights on. Yet it isn't. There are stations that barely crack the top 20 of the numbers but still manage to make money. I worked for one station where the co-owner was also the GM and the chief engineer. It was located in a converted house (the studio was in what used to be the garage) and had some pretty rudimentary automation, but it worked because they had a decent sales staff and - again - low overhead. A few hours north of there, a friend of mine owns a couple small market stations, and they turn a profit because he keeps costs down and has good sales people.

Are the rim shots around my area bringing in the same amount of money as iHeart, Audacy, Bonneville, or Hubbard? No, but you seem to imagine that anything without a big stick and corporate money is a waste of the airwaves. I look at something like KZCE and think "hey, that's great that someone is finally doing something with that signal. Good for them. I hope it works out."

And that's what this discussion was (apparently) originally intended to be about...rim shots that out punt their coverage. Yet instead of contributing something positive, you (and our intrepid moderator) sweep in and poo-poo anything that's not a full strength signal owned by a giant company.
 
Well goodness, I had no idea radio was so complicated! Gosh golly shucks you sure opened my eyes!
That's sarcasm, of course. I worked in the business for over 30 years and understand how it works. Perhaps before the next time I comment about the relative success of a station, I'll ask for a copy of the ratings breakdown and the financials of each and every station so you won't come at me with this "oh you poor, stupid fool" attitude.
For someone who's supposed to know how the business works, yet uses anecdotal feelings and 6+ to conclude a station popularity "blew up", seems more amateurish, don't you think? With 30 years of experience, you'd think your conclusions would have been more informed.
A small signal with low overhead can turn a profit. If it were not possible, then the radio landscape would be littered with silent rim shot signals and AM stations that couldn't keep the lights on.
Actually if you looked at stations for sale or in bankruptcy, many of them would be suburb or rimshot stations. I attribute a lot of that to being stand-alone's up against groups. With few or any agency dollars, stand alone rimshots face even stiffer headwinds with the shrinking of local advertising, let alone difficulty with collections from local advertisers.
Yet it isn't. There are stations that barely crack the top 20 of the numbers but still manage to make money. I worked for one station where the co-owner was also the GM and the chief engineer. It was located in a converted house (the studio was in what used to be the garage) and had some pretty rudimentary automation, but it worked because they had a decent sales staff and - again - low overhead.
How long ago was this?
A few hours north of there, a friend of mine owns a couple small market stations, and they turn a profit because he keeps costs down and has good sales people.
But I'll be if you asked him, the business of small market radio is getting harder, not easier to keep the lights on.
Are the rim shots around my area bringing in the same amount of money as iHeart, Audacy, Bonneville, or Hubbard? No, but you seem to imagine that anything without a big stick and corporate money is a waste of the airwaves.
I never said anything of the sort. That's your projection because I challenged your assumptions
And that's what this discussion was (apparently) originally intended to be about...rim shots that out punt their coverage. Yet instead of contributing something positive, you (and our intrepid moderator) sweep in and poo-poo anything that's not a full strength signal owned by a giant company.
But keeping the lights on and bills paid isn't exactly "blowing up", wouldn't you agree?
 
Perhaps before the next time I comment about the relative success of a station, I'll ask for a copy of the ratings breakdown and the financials of each and every station so you won't come at me with this "oh you poor, stupid fool" attitude.
Or just get a BIA subscription, which will give you all of that.
Yes, I know that 6+ doesn't tell the whole story. I indicated that (unless I do some digging) I didn't have ready access to the breakdowns for each and every demo, but in your rush to "radiosplain" things, you missed that I already pointed that out. As for what counts as financially successful, ratings don't tell the whole story, as you are well aware. A small signal with low overhead can turn a profit. If it were not possible, then the radio landscape would be littered with silent rim shot signals and AM stations that couldn't keep the lights on. Yet it isn't. There are stations that barely crack the top 20 of the numbers but still manage to make money.
But we all believe that at least 50% of stations do not show a profit. It was like that back in the 50's, 60's and 70's when we filed FCC financial reports. It was that way after the NAB did a survey which lead to consolidation in the 90's. And with revenue off over 60% since Y2K (inflation adjusted) there are probably even more stations that are not making a profit.
I worked for one station where the co-owner was also the GM and the chief engineer. It was located in a converted house (the studio was in what used to be the garage) and had some pretty rudimentary automation, but it worked because they had a decent sales staff and - again - low overhead. A few hours north of there, a friend of mine owns a couple small market stations, and they turn a profit because he keeps costs down and has good sales people.
If the owner can't go on vacation because there is nobody to run things in their absence or they are afraid that someone will come and foreclose on them, you know the station is troubled.
Are the rim shots around my area bringing in the same amount of money as iHeart, Audacy, Bonneville, or Hubbard? No, but you seem to imagine that anything without a big stick and corporate money is a waste of the airwaves.
But many of those marginal signals in smaller markets don't make money. And much of the AM band is populated by losing stations. In big metros, there are niche ethnic stations, and some religious stations survive because "the devout" contribute money.
I look at something like KZCE and think "hey, that's great that someone is finally doing something with that signal. Good for them. I hope it works out."
Yet we tend to see those "unique" stations disappear after a year or two after not monetizing their novelty value and having to bail out to ford off forclosure.
And that's what this discussion was (apparently) originally intended to be about...rim shots that out punt their coverage. Yet instead of contributing something positive, you (and our intrepid moderator) sweep in and poo-poo anything that's not a full strength signal owned by a giant company.
There are plenty of suburban stations making money. The various "embedded markets" in the NYC MSA have a bunch of them, particularly on Long Island. Those are "suburban signals" not trying to get meter hits in Manhattan and the boroughs and doing well (as long as they are on FM) with a lower cost local ad medium for local businesses.

But, using Long Island as an example, I can't think of one AM making money; there are 10 AMs on LI and they average $170,000 a year in billing... each. With the cost of doing business in that expensive market, I can't see any of them making money.


On FM, just 5 stations out of all 46 (not including translators) on LI account for over 80% of market billing. The other 41 make up the rest (of course, some are non-coms, but the illustration is fairly dramatic).
 
But keeping the lights on and bills paid isn't exactly "blowing up", wouldn't you agree?
When I see the owner of a former Class IV looking for 4-400A's or, aaaarrrgh, 833's, I know that they are down to their last penny and squeezing for a bit more "juice" hoping "the economy gets better" and dreaming of "the new factory that will bring jobs and retail to the city."
 
But I'll be if you asked him, the business of small market radio is getting harder, not easier to keep the lights on.
The business of radio is getting harder in general, not just in small markets. There are annual "reductions in force" at the big operators, stock prices are in the toilet for companies like Audacy, and the audience numbers have been shrinking for quite some time now. Yet folks still in the bubble either don't seem to grasp what's happening, or they know what's happening and are determined to squeeze a few dollars out of the thing before it dies.

And it is dying.

When I said the station in question "blew up," I was using a turn of phrase based on my perception and the information I got from folks I know who were there. A signal that got a fraction of a share went up to a 3 or 4, then settled back down into a range which was not top 10, but (again, trying to stay on topic) was punching above their weight. I don't have the sales figures, but I'd guess that having a 2 share makes things easier for the account execs than having a 0.2.

And yes, David. I could subscribe to BIA, but why? I've been out of the business for awhile now, and that money would be wasted on the occasional pissing match on this board. Obsessing over "the numbers" is something I don't need to do anymore. And that's the thing. Being outside of the business and getting some distance has given me a different perspective.

I've said this before, and it is purely anecdotal, but when the Gen Z and younger people at my job find out what I used to do for a living, the response I hear most often is something like "cool...my mom/dad used to listen to the radio." I get it. There is nothing there for them on the Audacy and iHeart stations in the market, and they're not going to sit through 10 minutes of spots for car dealers and injury attorneys just to get to that song they can stream on demand through their phone.

For me (and staying on topic) the rim shot stations are interesting because while I can be sure that the next thing on the classic rock station is a song I know by heart (RIP Jimmy Buffett), ther's a good chance that if I tune over to the Wow Factor or The Bounce the next song might be a "damn, I haven't heard this in ages!" proposition. I enjoy it as a listener, not as someone wondering if they went from a 2.3 to a 2.5 share in the last weekly.

Now, can either of you post something on topic like...I dunno...a rim shot or weak signal that's able to out punt their coverage?
 
When I see the owner of a former Class IV looking for 4-400A's or, aaaarrrgh, 833's, I know that they are down to their last penny and squeezing for a bit more "juice" hoping "the economy gets better" and dreaming of "the new factory that will bring jobs and retail to the city."
And after 2008, examples like yours are even more plentiful. Not 4-400's or 833's but one of my transmitters, a Harris HT30 at my full class C was getting long in the tooth and utility costs to feed it weren't going down. Facing a $130,000 bill to replace it wasn't exciting when I knew there would be no money left to make payroll after that purchase, nor would replacing it bring in any more revenue. So I can relate to the challenges of keeping old gear running. In my case, it was until the station could be sold.
 
The business of radio is getting harder in general, not just in small markets. There are annual "reductions in force" at the big operators, stock prices are in the toilet for companies like Audacy, and the audience numbers have been shrinking for quite some time now. Yet folks still in the bubble either don't seem to grasp what's happening, or they know what's happening and are determined to squeeze a few dollars out of the thing before it dies.

And it is dying.

When I said the station in question "blew up," I was using a turn of phrase based on my perception and the information I got from folks I know who were there. A signal that got a fraction of a share went up to a 3 or 4, then settled back down into a range which was not top 10, but (again, trying to stay on topic) was punching above their weight. I don't have the sales figures, but I'd guess that having a 2 share makes things easier for the account execs than having a 0.2.
You know as well as I that AE's would sell humidity in the air if they could. I don't think scoring one of those sales would be considered a 'blow-up' moment. More like a 'whew-dodged-a-bullet' moment.
I've said this before, and it is purely anecdotal, but when the Gen Z and younger people at my job find out what I used to do for a living, the response I hear most often is something like "cool...my mom/dad used to listen to the radio." I get it. There is nothing there for them on the Audacy and iHeart stations in the market, and they're not going to sit through 10 minutes of spots for car dealers and injury attorneys just to get to that song they can stream on demand through their phone.
That's true what you say that they probably said, but in reality they probably do tune in radio. That's the problem when radio comes up in conversation with people who don't have insider knowledge of radio; people feel compelled to quickly bash it. Back when I was just getting started in the business, it would be common to attend a party where someone would mention I worked in radio. Attendees would go out of their way to say to my face how they don't listen to radio, let alone the station I worked for. Worse yet, they would go out of their way to mention the competition was so much better. And that was long before streaming competition. One evening I got tired of the shi**y comments, so I asked some smartass what he did for a living. After he claimed Bekins Moving, I went on to talk about how Bekins must have absolute morons working there due to a lot of breakage during a recent move. The radio bashing ended quickly.
For me (and staying on topic) the rim shot stations are interesting because while I can be sure that the next thing on the classic rock station is a song I know by heart (RIP Jimmy Buffett), ther's a good chance that if I tune over to the Wow Factor or The Bounce the next song might be a "damn, I haven't heard this in ages!" proposition. I enjoy it as a listener, not as someone wondering if they went from a 2.3 to a 2.5 share in the last weekly.
Everyone loves an underdog. The ultimate hope is some upstart rimshot putting pressure on the in-market big guys. Reality is harsh, because the pressure is assumed but doesn't exist.
Now, can either of you post something on topic like...I dunno...a rim shot or weak signal that's able to out punt their coverage?
Again, you're fishing for a happy underdog story. Without actual revenue stats, all you will get is personal or anecdotal comments.
Nothing real.
 
Again, you're fishing for a happy underdog story. Without actual revenue stats, all you will get is personal or anecdotal comments.
Nothing real.

I was answering the question posed by the OP.

But as you said, reality is harsh. Rim shot or not, the radio business is slowly dying. That is the reality.
 
I work for a C2 that is terrain shadowed, KLMI-FM Rock river, WY that outkicks its percieved coverage. It's terrain shadowed to Laramie, 25 milesaway to the NW. There are stations running much less power about 5 to 10 miles east of Laramie that arent terrain shadowed at all, higher up and audible in cheyenne. KLMI isnt audible at all much past the county line

Yet we outkick just about everyone else who puts a signal in out county and markets to our county with sales and programming.

when i saw some tapscan numbers several years ago, our TSL was impressive and 2x that of our nearest competitor and 3 to 4x that or most everyone else.

We beat the pants off the now deceased lawyers cluster in every way possible and we even beat the townsquare cluster in almost every avenue except web content.

Locally owned, operated and programmed for 12 years.. owner works harder than employees and is often working 6 days a week. Heavily involved in the community and have been on the air as late as 1030pm or even 1am when breaking news happens.
 
I work for a C2 that is terrain shadowed, KLMI-FM Rock river, WY that outkicks its percieved coverage.
How so? Do you have revenue numbers as compared with other stations in the metroplex that is Laramie?
It's terrain shadowed to Laramie, 25 milesaway to the NW. There are stations running much less power about 5 to 10 miles east of Laramie that arent terrain shadowed at all, higher up and audible in cheyenne. KLMI isnt audible at all much past the county line

Yet we outkick just about everyone else who puts a signal in out county and markets to our county with sales and programming.

when i saw some tapscan numbers several years ago, our TSL was impressive and 2x that of our nearest competitor and 3 to 4x that or most everyone else.
Tapscan? How many years ago are we talking about?
Locally owned, operated and programmed for 12 years.. owner works harder than employees and is often working 6 days a week. Heavily involved in the community and have been on the air as late as 1030pm or even 1am when breaking news happens.
I think that could be said for anyone who owns/runs a small business. Take your foot off the gas at your own peril.
 
How so? Do you have revenue numbers as compared with other stations in the metroplex that is Laramie?

Tapscan? How many years ago are we talking about?

I think that could be said for anyone who owns/runs a small business. Take your foot off the gas at your own peril.
The tapscan numbers I saw were in late late 2019 or early 2020. The market there in terms of radio listening behavior doesnt change much, si not much changes.

I dont have revenue numbers, but i also know Townsquare Laramie has no local air talent.. no local shows on KOWB 1290, they moved the 95.1 studio to cheyenne. The 3 stations owned by the deceased lawyers estate have one or two local shows.

KLMI has a local morning show, voicetracked from out of market midday show and vocietracked afternoons that used to be local. Theres also 2 other local staff besides the owner and the morning host.

that says alot right there.

The owner could slow down and relax a bit, but its just not who he is. He's been working ever since he was of legal age to work (I'm almost 40, hes 36)
 
The tapscan numbers I saw were in late late 2019 or early 2020. The market there in terms of radio listening behavior doesnt change much, si not much changes.
Tapscan is not a ratings data source. It is qualitative data to show clients how your station performs and things like what the optimum schedule is. It gives easy access to CPP and reach and frequency and stuff like that.

From Nielsen: With Tapscan, you can:
  1. Demonstrate the sales potential of your audience with more than 80 categories of RETAIL SPENDING POWER qualitative information
  2. Show advertisers the number of listeners they can reach only through your station
  3. See what you—and your competition—can charge to hit a requested CPP
  4. Find out how many spots you need to run to reach a certain frequency, based on a demo and daypart
  5. Determine your reach and frequency by specific demo, daypart and spot level
  6. Demonstrate your power against newspapers, magazines, television, cable and outdoor

I am presuming you know that Tapscan is a product, at extra cost, from Nielsen, not a separate ratings service.
 
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Tapscan is not a ratings data source. It is qualitative data to show clients how your station performs and things like what the optimum schedule is. It gives easy access to CPP and reach and frequency and stuff like that.

From Nielsen: With Tapscan, you can:
  1. Demonstrate the sales potential of your audience with more than 80 categories of RETAIL SPENDING POWER qualitative information
  2. Show advertisers the number of listeners they can reach only through your station
  3. See what you—and your competition—can charge to hit a requested CPP
  4. Find out how many spots you need to run to reach a certain frequency, based on a demo and daypart
  5. Determine your reach and frequency by specific demo, daypart and spot level
  6. Demonstrate your power against newspapers, magazines, television, cable and outdoor

I am presuming you know that Tapscan is a product, at extra cost, from Nielsen, not a separate ratings service.

correct

We dont pay for Neilsen ratings because we only cover half the market and our station is built on local, relationship selling.. not national buys that depend on ratings
 
correct

We dont pay for Neilsen ratings because we only cover half the market and our station is built on local, relationship selling.. not national buys that depend on ratings
So, are you claiming that the station does well in half the Wyoming 'market'? To me, that's like saying you're number one (with goats who listen to the radio)
 
So, are you claiming that the station does well in half the Wyoming 'market'? To me, that's like saying you're number one (with goats who listen to the radio)

in our county of about 35,000 we outdo the other stations who put signals into and subsequently market to our county. its also not just official numbers of any kind that say this, its boots on the ground.. the radios or streaming devices in businesses, the repeat clients.. some weve had for YEARS and YEARS and just the overall community response. Sometimes success isnt measured in numbers, but those numbers also help tell a story.

The deceased lawyers cluster of 3 stations is almost entirely automated with no local shows except one show on the country station and one on the hit music station. our station has talent 6am to 7pm 6 days a week
 
in our county of about 35,000 we outdo the other stations who put signals into and subsequently market to our county. its also not just official numbers of any kind that say this, its boots on the ground.. the radios or streaming devices in businesses, the repeat clients.. some weve had for YEARS and YEARS and just the overall community response. Sometimes success isnt measured in numbers, but those numbers also help tell a story.
Back in the late 90's I built a new FM from a CP in a community of about the same size. It seemed like everyone in town had the station on. We got lots of positive feedback from community members, the only radio station in the area to carry the Seattle Seahawks games, etc. You'd hear the station on in shops, restaurants, and the two health clubs. It seemed like it was the only station in the area. But there weren't many auto dealers in the area, as most who were looking for cars went to the larger cities. The local TruValue closed in 2002, replaced by a Home Depot. The mom-and-pop grocery stores closed up, replaced by Safeway. The 2008 recession took out one health club and several restaurants. Two-thirds of the restaurants that closed up owed us money. Our sales folks were struggling as much as the local businesses. It got to the point where I had to say no to credit to businesses that were already behind on payments. Ultimately that just meant we would see nothing from these businesses for the foreseeable future. The economy never recovered. Many of the struggling businesses eventually went under.
The point is; that the anecdotal popularity of the station didn't translate into revenue. And my example isn't unique.
Doesn't matter whether everyone in town listens. If local businesses don't have money to advertise, all that popularity means squat.
The deceased lawyers cluster of 3 stations is almost entirely automated with no local shows except one show on the country station and one on the hit music station. our station has talent 6am to 7pm 6 days a week
I'm familiar with that group. And I submit they were the ones with the correct strategy to survive: Keep expenses as low as possible, because you're selling to the same limited number of advertisers and potential sales that the guy down the road with higher expenses.
 
Back in the late 90's I built a new FM from a CP in a community of about the same size. It seemed like everyone in town had the station on. We got lots of positive feedback from community members, the only radio station in the area to carry the Seattle Seahawks games, etc. You'd hear the station on in shops, restaurants, and the two health clubs. It seemed like it was the only station in the area. But there weren't many auto dealers in the area, as most who were looking for cars went to the larger cities. The local TruValue closed in 2002, replaced by a Home Depot. The mom-and-pop grocery stores closed up, replaced by Safeway. The 2008 recession took out one health club and several restaurants. Two-thirds of the restaurants that closed up owed us money. Our sales folks were struggling as much as the local businesses. It got to the point where I had to say no to credit to businesses that were already behind on payments. Ultimately that just meant we would see nothing from these businesses for the foreseeable future. The economy never recovered. Many of the struggling businesses eventually went under.
The point is; that the anecdotal popularity of the station didn't translate into revenue. And my example isn't unique.
Doesn't matter whether everyone in town listens. If local businesses don't have money to advertise, all that popularity means squat.

I'm familiar with that group. And I submit they were the ones with the correct strategy to survive: Keep expenses as low as possible, because you're selling to the same limited number of advertisers and potential sales that the guy down the road with higher expenses.

We have the local true value and ace hardware as regular clients, one of the car dealers.. the biggest one is a year round advertiser and spends alot of money with us
 
We have the local true value and ace hardware as regular clients, one of the car dealers.. the biggest one is a year round advertiser and spends alot of money with us
Yeah just wait till they get replaced, or in the case of the auto dealer, close up due to Internet sales.
 
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