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National Public Radio Journalist Believes That NPR Listening Demographics Have Changed And...

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I think @michael hagerty's reply is thoughtful.

But I also think Uri has a point. I actually noticed this some years before Uri's examples began, well before John Lansing ever thought of joining NPR. It was when "Code Switch" segments started appearing in Morning Edition in the early 2010s.

For those who don't listen to NPR regularly, "Code Switch" is an NPR podcast, designed to highlight race-based issues. As was NPR's policy at the time, podcast segments would be repurposed for Morning Edition or All Thigs Considered.
One of the early stories was a feature about Neil DeGrasse Tyson's most defining characteristic: his race.
Another was the experience of an hispanic woman telling her mother she was a lesbian, an example of "intersectionality", a phrase that was in vogue in liberal circles at the time.

There's nothing wrong with human interest stories. But when you start picking the stories because the subjects fit into some box you've decided to promote, journalism edges very close to activism.

I think, in general, NPR's hard news is one of the best national outlets we have. But that's also damning with faint praise given the collapse of the print media and the sensationalist nature of TV news.
 
There's nothing wrong with human interest stories. But when you start picking the stories because the subjects fit into some box you've decided to promote, journalism edges very close to activism.

Since the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1965, there has been a movement to try and correct all of the problems that preceded it. At the time, there was the civil rights movement, the women's movement, the anti-war movement, and lots of other socio-political movements that led to years of legislation. Now we're in a time when a group wants to erase all of that. Saying it's discriminatory to report on issues related to minorities or other groups.

But that doesn't change the fact that all of those people, the minorities, the women, the LGBTQs, whoever they are, still exist, and are still citizens and taxpayers with the same civil rights as everybody else. So they still warrant coverage even though it may not be popular. I guess there's this view that since they're a small minority, that they don't matter, and they should be ignored or even worse attacked. Now we have legislatures passing laws against them. As though making their situation a crime will actually help someone. It's part of the meanness of America. NPR isn't part of that.
 
Since the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1965, there has been a movement to try and correct all of the problems that preceded it. At the time, there was the civil rights movement, the women's movement, the anti-war movement, and lots of other socio-political movements that led to years of legislation. Now we're in a time when a group wants to erase all of that. Saying it's discriminatory to report on issues related to minorities or other groups.

But that doesn't change the fact that all of those people, the minorities, the women, the LGBTQs, whoever they are, still exist, and are still citizens and taxpayers with the same civil rights as everybody else. So they still warrant coverage even though it may not be popular. I guess there's this view that since they're a small minority, that they don't matter, and they should be ignored or even worse attacked. Now we have legislatures passing laws against them. As though making their situation a crime will actually help someone. It's part of the meanness of America. NPR isn't part of that.
If there's anything MAGA supporters want, it's to get white male Christians back to the top of the pecking order.
 
The one factual problem I have with this article is it attempts to link news bias to bad ratings and funding issues. We all know the ratings at public stations aren't bad. And we've documented that the funding issues are part of the larger advertising and sponsorship problems affecting all media, including commercial radio, satellite radio, streaming, and podcasting. In fact the layoffs at NPR were primarily in the podcasting division, not news. Most of the public stations who have had layoffs have attributed them to that advertising shortage, not ratings or lack of audience. Certainly WBUR in Boston doesn't have any ratings problems, other than the audience is getting older. But adding more stories about Hunter's laptop aren't going to solve the budget problems at these stations.
 
Mostly, @michael hagerty reflects my opinions on this as well. I will add that I get a whiff of "kids these days!" from Berliner's essay. There is greater awareness among younger generations of some of the contradictions between what the U.S. political culture espouses and how it plays out in reality. Some of those contradictions are uncomfortable to consider and create counter-reactions. The older generation at NPR has mostly retired; younger staffers are more likely to challenge the status quo ante.

It's easy to paint NPR as elitist and out of touch. There are times when I've referred to it as "National Boswash Radio". But I've actually been more satisfied with its coverage in recent years, though "flyover country" still doesn't get its share of coverage. NPR could do worse than to hire fewer people from the Ivy League and more with backgrounds from state universities.

I see a parallel with something I experienced two days ago. We were having lunch in Brenham, Texas, which has a lovely WPA-era courthouse and a surprisingly lively downtown area. There are historical markers dotting the courthouse lawn. Two of them describe historical events in Washington County from the Confederate days, praising the heroism and ingenuity of local citizens fighting for the Confederacy. Nowhere on those markers was there any indication that they were fighting to preserve an economy based on human slavery. I'm sure the thinking was, "Gosh, that might upset people". Thus there was no context in a situation where context was really necessary for a full understanding of those times. Likewise, admittedly with a less intense subject, if NPR endeavors to explain the "why" behind a story, and the problematic aspects of that "why", it's going to upset some people.

Berliner also seems to be blaming DEI initiatives for public radio's recent financial problems; I suspect the story is much more complex than that. He also seems to believe that NPR has taken on a didactic tone. I haven't observed that.

There's also a tendency to view NPR as a monolith, but member stations are a part of what people experience as "public radio". The nature and quality of those member station operations vary quite a bit.

Berliner's objective for his essay is unclear. It feels like he's pulling a Bernard Goldberg, with a jumble of complaints that may have a little bit of truth to them but with some level of exaggeration and overpersonalization as well.

NPR may not be perfect, but it beats the crap out of the typical Rush Limbaugh-inspired bias of commercial talk or news/talk stations these days.
 
I told myself I was going to stay out of this thread, but I have another three hours yet on my flight to NAB and haven't run out of battery yet on my phone, so:

I don't work for NPR. I work for an "NPR station," which is to say I work for a local nonprofit that buys programming from NPR and other sources. Our editorial guidelines are determined locally. Nobody in DC (or St. Paul or LA or London) tells us what to cover or how. Sometimes we like the national product that comes from NPR. Sometimes we're frustrated by it, too.

(I am also speaking only for myself here.)

We are one of more than 200 local newsrooms in the public radio system, plus a couple hundred other NPR members that do little or no local news. There's a constant give and take between the network and all of us member stations about a lot of issues that go beyond just news content. It's about whether and how NPR directly distributed its own content (and fundraises off of it) versus distribution through the member stations that pay for most of the cost of producing it, for instance.

I wouldn't want to be NPR CEO. I don't think that person gets to spend most of his or her time focusing on content these days.

Which brings me around to the Berliner piece. I don't know him at all. I think I've heard his name once or twice. There are a lot of people at NPR (even after cutbacks) with a lot of opinions about how it does its job, and he's... one of them.

And that's the thing: this article of his did what I suspect he intended it would. It tapped into a vein of criticism that's not at all new or original, but which allows those who are already inclined to be critical of NPR to feed their confirmation biases. If you're the sort of person who throws around "woke" pejoratively, Uri is right there to tell you everything you believe about NPR is true.

It's entirely possible that much of what he's saying IS true. Again, I don't work there. I hear the same product through my headphones that any audience member hears over the air, at the same time they do. I just happen to get a rundown an hour or two earlier telling me vaguely what will be coming.

Here's what I AM saying: I think Berliner's article represents the opinion and observation of one person looking at one leg joint of an enormous elephant. I think an honest assessment of everything that is "NPR" must take in more viewpoints than just this one, especially if it just happens to confirm exactly what you already thought about the network and the product.

The things I will gladly defend about NPR most of the time are the size and scope of its international coverage, with reporters on the ground in lots of places the commercial networks abandoned years ago, if they ever covered them at all. (Africa, especially.)

I'll defend and support the quality and depth of its arts coverage, which is very, very good almost all of the time.

I'll point to just how solid its hourly newscasts are. If you have three minutes and want to get up to date on what's happening right now, the NPR hourlies are as good as it gets, tightly written and packed with good sound from around the country and world.

I'm not always as impressed by the politics coverage, which falls into a lot of the same traps as commercial news sources - there's a lot of horse-race and often not enough policy context, though at least they try hard.

And here's where Uri and I part ways: I appreciate and admire the commitment NPR has made at the network level to present a lot of diverse voices and to do so in as respectful a way as possible. Our local newsroom follows the same general policy here as the network: try to listen to voices that have often been marginalized, and treat them on the air the way we'd want to be treated in a story about us. That means listening to what people do - and don't - want to be called, and avoiding pejorative descriptions. We would not use "hordes" or "illegals" on our air, for instance.

Any well-meaning effort can go too far, of course. We've pulled back on using "Latinx," for instance.

Back to Uri: the other big point of disagreement I have with him is that his piece seems to brush past the way in which the world around us has changed in recent years. When I started here 20 years ago, there was much more consensus on what facts were and whether they could be discussed civilly. That's no longer the case.

It used to be that our daily talk show could easily book politicians in either major party. That's no longer the case. There's a whole separate reality system in which much of one party operates now that's increasingly unmoored from fact. It would be irresponsible journalism not to call that out. It also means people like Rep. Claudia Tenney, who represents a decent chunk of our listening area, will never appear on our air for an interview by THEIR choice, not ours. She's much happier to go unchallenged on a Newsmax or Fox News. We can't force her to answer our questions, nor can we stop her from using us as a convenient enemy to goose her fundraising and voters.

Finding "balance" in today's environment is far more challenging than it used to be. Berliner's take is that it's because NPR has changed. I think that's far too narrow. I think it's because the world around NPR and local public radio has changed.

There were no "Journalist, Tree, Rope: Assembly Required" t-shirts at political rallies when I got into the business. Now they're a routine merch item at the rallies of one specific candidate and political party. Journalists are human beings who operate in the real world. They're not going to refrain from noticing that or reacting to it. That's another thing Berliner chooses to overlook: if he's right that the majority of journalists belong to one party rather than the other, it's at least to some extent a process of self-selection.

Beyond the fact that we generally don't like to be around people whose shirts say they want us dead (who would?), the qualities that make a good public radio journalist are also often at odds with the overt beliefs of one of our two major political parties right now. Curiosity about the world, a desire to hear from voices that have often been marginalized, an understanding that the world is usually nuanced and rarely black-and-white, engagement with the arts - these are all things one major party's presidential candidate openly mocks every time he's on stage. (I know this is a very long and worst answer, but it's BECAUSE these things are complicated. If NPR feels "snobby" or "elitist," I would contend that it's because it's trying to understand and explain a complicated world that requires complex examination sometimes.)

More Berliner blinders, then: he also elides the reality that there's now a very large and vibrant media ecosystem that is laser-focused on telling those on the right precisely what they want to hear at any given moment. Was Hunter Biden's laptop given too short shrift by NPR? I suppose it's possible. But it's also indubitably true that it was given incredibly extensive coverage on FNC/Newsmax/talk radio. There's one reality where it is the top story for years, and another where it isn't, and it's getting harder and harder to see where those two realities still overlap.

I'm not sure what it is Berliner WANTS, exactly. I don't think an NPR that pivots toward more Hunter Biden laptop coverage ends up serving anybody. It's never going to go far enough toward any one political axis to attract the kind of audience that's already getting exactly what it wants from America's Real Voice (or, at the other end of the circle, The Young Turks), and if it did, what would it be providing that isn't already duplicated somewhere else?

Nor would I want to see NPR pull back from the diversity of its coverage. For all the internal strife that's driven too many good Black hosts out, the lineup of voices coming through my headphones these days sounds a lot more like more of America than it did 20 years ago. Same with our local voices at my station, and we know we can still do better.

Berliner seems bothered by that, and I have no doubt he's finding a large and lucrative audience for that viewpoint. Just keep in mind that it's one viewpoint from a huge organization where hundreds of people are doing their best, day in and day out, to figure out how to cover a very unusual new world in a way that's both fair and honest. If you're drawn specifically to Berliner's take on it because it confirms what you already wanted to believe, that's exactly where a good journalist would start questioning those established beliefs and testing them against the facts.

I don't know what Berliner's endgame here is. If he's hoping NPR will react to him so he can become a victim and get a cushy job somewhere he's more comfortable ideologically, it wouldn't surprise me. We've seen that happen plenty of times. But I don't know him and I would prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt. He's hardly the only one seeing a quickly changing world around him and reacting sharply. I'm not sure his piece really amounts to much more than that.
 
I would also like to note that this issue extends into the world of college radio as well. I am by no stretch of the imagination a professional journalist who should work for NPR, but I did volunteer at my college radio station a few years ago. It wasn't exactly an easy experience. While the station I volunteered for was not affiliated with NPR, they regularly aired Democracy Now!, and relied on student journalists to provide news and information to the listening audience.

I fully admit that my political stance is pretty moderate, so I always tried to come up with news stories that were factual, and had appeal to people who belong to both sides of the political spectrum. I was volunteering right in the thick of the 2016 presidential election, which brought about many negative news pieces on the Trump presidential campaign. As I recall, the News Director actively wanted us to focus our newscast on Donald Trump, and not stop until he lost. In an election year, there is bound to be a lot of coverage about the presidential candidates, but this approach became extremely boring and predictable after a while.

I feel like this experience relates somewhat to situation that Uri describes. I'm positive that there were people who worked at my college station who were far more to the left side of the political aisle who felt the same way that I did. The station obviously had a lot of appeal to students with liberal views (and people living in the nearby community with similar views), but it lacked any balance whatsoever. I do not believe this was the original intention of the station (and the school staff who were overseeing it), but this is what it morphed into by letting it become an echo chamber.
 
There are times when I've referred to it as "National Boswash Radio". But I've actually been more satisfied with its coverage in recent years, though "flyover country" still doesn't get its share of coverage. NPR could do worse than to hire fewer people from the Ivy League and more with backgrounds from state universities.

Ha! I had to look up Boswash. I agree. At one time, almost all of their stories seemed to come from either the Washington Post or the New York Times. They have really tried to move things out of that corridor by originating programming from their LA bureau. But LA isn't politically different from Boswash. They've invested millions of endowment dollars in training journalists at member stations around the country. I'm sure they hoped that would lead to more reporting from those areas. Perhaps it hasn't. They have something at NPR called the National Desk that is charged with seeking out stories from the stations. The other area outside of Boswash is Minneapolis. That's where APM is. At one time, they were thought to be the place that would compete with Boswash in the program development business. Sadly, the shows they represent don't differ all that much from NPR.
 
As many of the pros here say, radio is a business. Public radio, while non-profit, IS still in the entertainment and information business. If you are doing a good job then people will listen. If you are doing a bad job then they won't. I can only speak locally here in the PNW, which most of the rest of the country thinks of as liberal. But we really are like the rest of N America-"blue" islands with large populations in a sea of huge "red" areas with lower densities.

Using 6+ numbers because that is all I have access to:
The two large public radio outlets that run Morning Edition and ATC combined are by far the most listened to stations in the Seattle-Tacoma market. KUOW by itself is generally #1 and has been for decades. It topped the latest book.

CBC is by a huge margin the most listened to station in the Vancouver market.
CBC is by a huge margin the most listened to station in the Victoria market.

OPB (Oregon Public Broadcasting is consistently the top or one of the top three stations in the Portland OR market. And they run a highly successful state-wide network that includes huge swaths of so-called "red" areas.

Most telling, the service for public broadcasting in WA state that serves almost exclusively rural "red" areas of the state, NWPB, just celebrated it's 100th anniversary. They are well supported and they are not going anywhere. They are running 3 networks (News/classical/jazz) 24/7. And the biggest city they serve is Spokane, not exactly known as a liberal bastion.

Is public radio making less money than five years ago, than 20 years ago? Of course. Just like every other radio org out there. That doesn't mean public radio has lost the trust of America. The evidence is just not there. In areas with well-run stations, the numbers are there. And they are not fading.

You cannot lose something you never had. The America that Berliner seems to be describing is an America that has never had a use for public radio, and never will. Seems like he is lining up a gig with someone outside public radio...but that is just my opinion. Will be fascinating to see where he is in 3 years.
 
To fordranger797 above: I think there's a very important point missing in your comparison. I did college radio too, many years ago. I was the news director for a year. We were kids with no real training, and thus no real editorial standards or institutional knowledge to guide us. It's easy to go off the rails that way - and nobody is depending on college students for news, anyway.

NPR has been around for 54 years and has an incredible depth of training and editorial standards guiding its product. Nothing goes to air or web without passing through several layers of editing and fact checking.
 
It's easy to paint NPR as elitist and out of touch. There are times when I've referred to it as "National Boswash Radio". But I've actually been more satisfied with its coverage in recent years, though "flyover country" still doesn't get its share of coverage. NPR could do worse than to hire fewer people from the Ivy League and more with backgrounds from state universities.

Steve Inskeep, arguably the biggest name on the NPR news magazines these days, is a Hoosier whose degree is from Morehead State. His co-hosts went to Cal State Northridge, Northeastern and, OK, Yale (but that's Michel Martin, who got there the hard way from Brooklyn.)

In the afternoon, you've got a Fargo native (Ari Shapiro) and a KC girl (Juana Summers) who went to Mizzou.

Danielle Kurtzleben, their main campaign correspondent, is as Iowa as they come, with a degree from Carleton.

Scott Simon is pure uncut Chicago.
 
To fordranger797 above: I think there's a very important point missing in your comparison. I did college radio too, many years ago. I was the news director for a year. We were kids with no real training, and thus no real editorial standards or institutional knowledge to guide us. It's easy to go off the rails that way - and nobody is depending on college students for news, anyway.

NPR has been around for 54 years and has an incredible depth of training and editorial standards guiding its product. Nothing goes to air or web without passing through several layers of editing and fact checking.
I definitely see what you’re saying, but I think the main point is that at any media outlet, those who are put in a position of power can dramatically change the overall direction of the programming.

You could even look at CNN as an example. It’s gone through many changes over the years. Depending on who has been in charge, the station has taken a different approach to news delivery.

There’s nothing really wrong with NPR if their current approach is working for them. But I do think that a line has been drawn in the sand, and that most people with more conservative or moderate views have found other media options. Likewise, I imagine that many staff members that are not as liberal minded may have moved on to other roles outside of NPR as the audience began to shift.

The way I see it, those in control of NPR know their base, and there’s nothing wrong with catering the programming to fit that base of listeners. The programming may not be for me, but we don’t live in a world where listening to NPR would be anyone’s only source of news.
 
This has been an interesting discussion (so far), folks. Props to everyone who's contributed.

The one point I will add is this: Originally (and as a legal entity to this day), the organization was/is National Public Radio. "NPR" was a shorthand designation for the network, not the network. At some point, the powers that be decided to "brand" themselves as "NPR", and for all public-facing identification purposes it has become NPR. It is rare that you hear them refer to themselves as National Public Radio. To their detriment, IMO.

Robert Siegel, when he was the host/anchor of All Things Considered (before the decision to rebrand), used to open each hour by saying "It's All Things Considered from National Public Radio", giving the word "Public" a subtle punch. Everyone used to use "This is NPR, National Public Radio" as the outcue. By emphasizing Public, they were continuously reinforcing the idea that this network was different, it existed to serve the public, not a group of owners or stockholders.

When TPTB abandoned that perception for one that treats the organization as one more member of Big Journalism, IMO they lost their way. Yes, they're better known nationally and around the world. But what made them different, the image that (to borrow an old advertising slogan) they answered to a higher authority, has been move to the background. They were small, scrappy, modestly paid, but always aspiring to get their reporting, the storytelling, the audio, the journalism right. I think they still are trying, but in the public perception I don't think that impression is as much there as it once was.
 
This has been an interesting discussion (so far), folks. Props to everyone who's contributed.

The one point I will add is this: Originally (and as a legal entity to this day), the organization was/is National Public Radio. "NPR" was a shorthand designation for the network, not the network. At some point, the powers that be decided to "brand" themselves as "NPR", and for all public-facing identification purposes it has become NPR. It is rare that you hear them refer to themselves as National Public Radio. To their detriment, IMO.

Robert Siegel, when he was the host/anchor of All Things Considered (before the decision to rebrand), used to open each hour by saying "It's All Things Considered from National Public Radio", giving the word "Public" a subtle punch. Everyone used to use "This is NPR, National Public Radio" as the outcue. By emphasizing Public, they were continuously reinforcing the idea that this network was different, it existed to serve the public, not a group of owners or stockholders.

When TPTB abandoned that perception for one that treats the organization as one more member of Big Journalism, IMO they lost their way. Yes, they're better known nationally and around the world. But what made them different, the image that (to borrow an old advertising slogan) they answered to a higher authority, has been move to the background. They were small, scrappy, modestly paid, but always aspiring to get their reporting, the storytelling, the audio, the journalism right. I think they still are trying, but in the public perception I don't think that impression is as much there as it once was.

Yes.

I arrived for my four years at CapRadio in Sacramento just a few months after they had changed their name from Capital Public Radio. As recently as the month before I left, when I'd mention CapRadio to non-radio folks, I'd get "what's that"? If I said "Capital Public Radio", they instantly knew what I was talking about, and start talking to me about their experiences and likes as listeners.

Which means that, despite four years of calling the station "CapRadio" on the air, those listeners hadn't absorbed the change. It flew right by them. They still considered it Capital Public Radio.

And for people who hadn't listened before, we weren't telling them who we were. They'd have to listen and piece together from what was said on the air that we were non-commercial, listener-supported, from Sacramento State University and the area's NPR station.
 
Steve Inskeep, arguably the biggest name on the NPR news magazines these days, is a Hoosier whose degree is from Morehead State. His co-hosts went to Cal State Northridge, Northeastern and, OK, Yale (but that's Michel Martin, who got there the hard way from Brooklyn.)

In the afternoon, you've got a Fargo native (Ari Shapiro) and a KC girl (Juana Summers) who went to Mizzou.

Danielle Kurtzleben, their main campaign correspondent, is as Iowa as they come, with a degree from Carleton.
Carleton is in Minnesota.

In any event, I 'd be more concerned with the backgrounds of the decision-makers, most of whom are not air staff.


Scott Simon is pure uncut Chicago.
He doesn't come off that way to me. Maybe he's more Willmette than Willow Springs.
 
Ha! I had to look up Boswash. I agree. At one time, almost all of their stories seemed to come from either the Washington Post or the New York Times. They have really tried to move things out of that corridor by originating programming from their LA bureau. But LA isn't politically different from Boswash. They've invested millions of endowment dollars in training journalists at member stations around the country. I'm sure they hoped that would lead to more reporting from those areas. Perhaps it hasn't. They have something at NPR called the National Desk that is charged with seeking out stories from the stations. The other area outside of Boswash is Minneapolis. That's where APM is. At one time, they were thought to be the place that would compete with Boswash in the program development business. Sadly, the shows they represent don't differ all that much from NPR.

Also don't forget the other stereotype that the stories from NPR are also on the I-80 corridor between San Francisco to Sacramento. Yes this is one where a KQED Radio reporter is listed as west coast correspondent has some of their stories go nationwide whenever NPR News needs to do a story on the west coast.
 
Yes.

I arrived for my four years at CapRadio in Sacramento just a few months after they had changed their name from Capital Public Radio. As recently as the month before I left, when I'd mention CapRadio to non-radio folks, I'd get "what's that"? If I said "Capital Public Radio", they instantly knew what I was talking about, and start talking to me about their experiences and likes as listeners.

Which means that, despite four years of calling the station "CapRadio" on the air, those listeners hadn't absorbed the change. It flew right by them. They still considered it Capital Public Radio.

And for people who hadn't listened before, we weren't telling them who we were. They'd have to listen and piece together from what was said on the air that we were non-commercial, listener-supported, from Sacramento State University and the area's NPR station.
On the reverse side, the Ideastream stations in Cleveland (WCPN, WCLV, WVIZ; WKSU merged into WCPN in 2022) all rebranded themselves as "Ideastream Public Media" in 2021, placing "Public" front and center on both radio and TV. It's a longer name than "Ideastream" but IMO easier to remember and pretty catchy.
 
I'll point to just how solid its hourly newscasts are. If you have three minutes and want to get up to date on what's happening right now, the NPR hourlies are as good as it gets, tightly written and packed with good sound from around the country and world.
Those are good newscasts. I didn't hear them a lot back when I finally started listening to all of "Car Talk". I turned the radio on early and ended up getting "Giles Snyder with These Headlines" which was more like the quick newscast some impatient people want. I did find out some affiliates started "Car Talk" after the newscast. Occasionally, I would keep listening. Edit: Which means I heard a newscast after "Car Talk".

Until recently WFAE in Charlotte cut the newscast short before "Wait! Wait!" and a local host would do additional local stories. For whatever reason, that host has been replaced by two different people. The one who is on earlier has his final look at what's coming up before "Wait! Wait!" starts, then there is the introduction to "Wait! Wait!" and then the full newscast, then the second person introduces herself (it's usually a woman) before "Wait! Wait!" really begins. The full newscast has followed the introduction of "It's Been a Minute" or whatever followed and sometimes I've heard it.
 
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