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How many AM stations still actively use HD Radio (AM-HD)? Are there any in your area?

I think this is a case of no ones listening, and not no one can hear it. if you look at its near peel the paint local contour, youre looking at 75,000 people or so.
Huh?

There are nearly a million people in fairly compact Westchester County, not 75,000, and my experience driving around is that WFAS will decode in a car in MA3 just about anywhere you are in the county, as well as in decent chunks of eastern Rockland, parts of the Bronx and into Connecticut.
 
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Huh?

There are nearly a million people in fairly compact Westchester County, not 75,000, and my experience driving around is that WFAS will decode in a car in MA3 just about anywhere you are in the county, as well as in decent chunks of eastern Rockland, parts of the Bronx and into Connecticut.

I looked JUST at the city of license and thats it.. in an attempt to quickly prove wrong the "no one can hear it": remark
 
I looked JUST at the city of license and thats it.. in an attempt to quickly prove wrong the "no one can hear it": remark
There's still no prize here for "most total posts" or "fastest reply guy."

If you actually know something that can add to a conversation, by all means post.

If you're just guessing, please don't.
 
Love this from cumulus! If only they brought AM HD into their San Francisco AM’s — not a clue why they’re so opposed. Half their cluster and likely going to fade away within 5 years. I’d be shocked if people used AM in its current state in 2030.
KNBR would need a major antenna overhaul in order to use HD. KTCT and KGO had used it at various times. I don't remember about KSFO.

That's an AM-heavy cluster, and one of the two FMs is simulcasting an AM. Cross-service translators are not a possibility. It makes me wonder about the future of KSAN. It may depend on what expenses Cumulus needs to throw overboard as the next quarterly iceberg approaches.

KGO can keep going as long as Audacy's willing to feed it the BetQL programming. KTCT has been "whatever" for decades. KSFO can always just plug into whichever extreme-right talkers that have notoriety at any given moment. A low-overhead, low-revenue model can keep going for a longer time than you might want to imagine. It may not be good radio; it may not be very profitable; but the technology and tools are there to allow these situations to persist. HD AM isn't required for this to happen.
 
KNBR would need a major antenna overhaul in order to use HD. KTCT and KGO had used it at various times. I don't remember about KSFO.

That's an AM-heavy cluster, and one of the two FMs is simulcasting an AM. Cross-service translators are not a possibility. It makes me wonder about the future of KSAN. It may depend on what expenses Cumulus needs to throw overboard as the next quarterly iceberg approaches.

KGO can keep going as long as Audacy's willing to feed it the BetQL programming. KTCT has been "whatever" for decades. KSFO can always just plug into whichever extreme-right talkers that have notoriety at any given moment. A low-overhead, low-revenue model can keep going for a longer time than you might want to imagine. It may not be good radio; it may not be very profitable; but the technology and tools are there to allow these situations to persist. HD AM isn't required for this to happen.

Regarding the future of KSAN, I honestly think Cumulus will eventually either have to commit to expanding market presence or begin exiting more fragmented markets. The thing is, how many large operators are buying major market signals now? Not really many, right?

I think AM is on a very hard decline, it never is in demographic breakdowns, it never is showing a high market penetration when it comes to those 6+ numbers, which I only value to represent here how little people are truly listening. It’s being phased out increasingly by major operators and there is outliers but they are the exception and not the rule.

Realistically, can two FM’s eventually hold the entire cluster? Audacy has one or maybe even two stations that seem to be doing pretty poor and with both organizations financial situation, a swap might help both out here. Does Audacy’s fragmented formats help? Do they really need more then 106.9, 105.3 and 97.3?

I’m sure both would be more profitable at least with handing over KRBQ to Cumulus so that Cumulus can compliment their cluster better, because their formats are all quite complimentary to each other I’d argue but I’d also argue that those AM signals will pull less revenue every year, bar what some of our Analog AM fans may say, as much as I may respect our fellow posters, I can’t get behind the AM nostalgia and the band having any future in large business.
 
The main channels are not using TV or billboards, so HD channels certainly will not. But in many markets there ethnic and religious stations that are filling definite needs.
Some are here, using TV or billboards, or at least pretty recently, the bigger iHeart Stations, KEEY and KDWB I remember. But iHeart has a billboard Wing, doesn't it?
 
I think this is a case of no ones listening, and not no one can hear it. if you look at its near peel the paint local contour, youre looking at 75,000 people or so.
But think of radio some decades back: a market with about 20,000 people like Traverse City, MI, or Lake City, FL, could support perhaps two AM stations and an FM quite easily.

This was before Docket 80-90 added sometimes the double of the number of stations and before local retail was massacred by the big box stores like K-Mart and Walmart and Best Buy. There was plenty of local business between retail and services, and not too many stations. Radio, like WTCM in Traverse City or WDSR in Lake City, did hours of local news and information every day, and people actually listened to keep up with their communities.

A market of 75,000 could support 5 or 6 stations in that era. Look at Muskegon, MI, which had about 140,000 population in the mid-70's and had 6 AMs and 4 FMs in a two county metro.
 
KNBR would need a major antenna overhaul in order to use HD. KTCT and KGO had used it at various times. I don't remember about KSFO.
Can someone explain why a single tower non-directional AM such as KNBR would have trouble with HD? Their tower is high enough to not have sharp high and low side reactance curves on either side of the carrier and the bandwidth of half-wave or close to half wave towers is generally pretty good.
 
There's still no prize here for "most total posts" or "fastest reply guy."
Yep, I checked my mail today and there was no prize certificate... not even a frameable award!
If you're just guessing, please don't.
Heck, even Emmis seems to be "guessing" on its NYC format.
 
Huh?

There are nearly a million people in fairly compact Westchester County, not 75,000, and my experience driving around is that WFAS will decode in a car in MA3 just about anywhere you are in the county, as well as in decent chunks of eastern Rockland, parts of the Bronx and into Connecticut.

Yes, but who outside of radio message board participants and ham radio operators there know it even exists, never mind care about the conservative talk lineup WFAS carries? You wouldn't even find the station by doing an AM band scan unless you knew enough to sit and wait after it stopped on the silent channel long enough for the HD to lock in. Again, who is doing that apart from the geekiest radio geeks? (I have -- once -- so I include myself in that category).

It's an interesting experiment but that station's audience must be very, very niche indeed. It does give Cumulus a place to clear its Westwood shows in "Market #1", though. On paper, anyway.
 
Can someone explain why a single tower non-directional AM such as KNBR would have trouble with HD? Their tower is high enough to not have sharp high and low side reactance curves on either side of the carrier and the bandwidth of half-wave or close to half wave towers is generally pretty good.
That's easy, it wouldn't. The issue would be TX output capability. Need more TPO for additional bandwidth, which means replacing their existing TX with a larger one and digital capabilities. Get out the checkbook. I believe there's only one manufacturer, Nautel, that still sells AM-HD or MA3 capable transmitters.
 
Before anything else, thanks for the detailed explanation. I learned quite a bit from it and have a more solid basis for thinking what I had intuited before.
You're quite welcome. :)
Looking at the graphs reminds me of dropouts seen on 2" quad videotape. In essence, the algorithm is creating dropouts at the boundaries of frequency bands.
Good comparison. Yes, what's specifically taking place is that because of bit starvation, the IBOC AM codec couldn't even encode most of the upper portion of the real audio range (the range just beneath 3600 Hz). Consequently, with almost nothing in that range for the SBR logic to calculate any synthetic harmonics from, echos of that "gulch" appear multiple times within the synthesized SBR range. In every way imaginable, the audio is a complete wreck and a total loss.
I think that answered my question about error correction. That would make sense since an AM signal is so prone to interference. In theory, a digital signal ought to be able to ignore most of that but imagine what intense electrical interference could do.
Plus skywave at night. Plus adjacent channel interference.
Possible answers for why this is are not flattering to broadcasters: neglect, carelessness, lack of understanding, being cheap with bandwidth, etc. But more on that in a moment.
At least broadcasters can increase their internet streams' bitrates. IBOC AM comparatively is a bitrate straight jacket. It's capable of going as high as 60 kbit/s from what I understand, but the sacrifice in FEC is said to make it too tetchy.
KOA sounds a little better than KHOW as far as digital compression goes but it still sounds like it's about a 32-40 kbps bitrate that's in use. maybe even less. What the {bleep}? Even worse, I hear these same effects on KBCO, which is an FM station - and I mean its analog signal. It's appalling. Is this some effort to get the sound on the stream to match the sound on the radio?
Appalling is the right word for that sound, but what you're hearing isn't actually lossy compression. I understand why you thought so, however, since very low bitrate lossy codecs produce a similar tonality to this stuff. What you're hearing, on both of those stations, is actually the accursed sound of Voltair. You can read about it this thread I started two years ago when I too wasn't yet clear on what was causing it:

https://radiodiscussions.com/thread...e-watermarking-is-this-kfi-and-others.756462/

Basically, Nielsen's PPM ratings watermarking encoders add station ID information in the form of modem sounds to 10 very thin slices of the audio spectrum between ~1 and ~3 kHz. Imagine something like FSK tones, with one at 1 kHz, the next at 1.2 kHz, the third at 1.4 kHz, going all the way to the 10th at around 3 kHz. Well, you don't want listeners to ever hear those. So Nielsen's PPM encoders only add them at very specific moments when they sense that other, existing sounds at those frequencies would psychoacoustically mask them. The problem with this approach is that, during any periods of time in a station's broadcast where there are no exiting sounds of sufficient loudness at those 10 frequencies for psychoacoustic masking to take place, the Nielsen PPM encoders have to stop sending their streams of 1's and 0's and wait for another moment in time to arrive where sufficiently loud sounds do exist at those frequencies to enable psychoacoustic masking once again. As soon as that happens, the encoders resume sending their 1's and 0's from where they left off. This process repeats indefinitely, but depending on how spectrally dense vs. open the station's audio is on average (imagine the spectral density of heavy metal versus speech), the opportunities for masking can be so few and far between that it can take minutes before even one iteration of a station's ID can be fully transmitted to listeners' PPM meters. Meaning that if any listener listens for less time than that, his meter doesn't log the station as having been listened to. Other listeners meanwhile might listen for as long as it takes for the full station ID to be conveyed a few times, but thwart their meters' ability to fully hear any of those iterations with intermittent background noises. So someone at a Telos Alliance sub-brand company called 25-Seven came up with the idea of creating a processor (the Voltair) that would apply noise-gated upwards compression to the 10 aforementioned ultra-thin frequency slices to make Nielsen's PPM encoders almost always see audio in those regions that's sufficiently loud for successful psychoacoustic masking. The result, as shown by this high-resolution close up of the Voltair's LCD display, is that its upwards compression amplifies so many psychoacoustically non-masking soft sounds so often that a PPM encoder can be tricked into near-continuous insertion, going from taking several minutes to send a station's complete ID message to just seconds.

But there's one small problem with that. Just as the ear perceives a continuous sinewave at one fixed frequency as "a tone," it perceives a dramatically amplified ultra-thin slice of spectrum during speech or music (i.e. 0.95 kHz to 1.05 kHz being 12 dB louder than everything on either side) as something akin to a variable-amplitude tone, or in audio processing parlance, filter ringing -- the sort caused when a phase-linear bandpass, bandstop, lowpass, or highpass filter has a vertical skirt/slope. And this, getting back to your "apt misidentification" of Voltair as low bitrate lossy audio, is why the Voltair sounds so similar to a bit-starved lossy codec. Lossy codecs also use razor thin, vertically-skirted EQ bands; only in their cases, to de-amplify (down to -infinity dB) all audio at specific frequencies for specific lengths of time (i.e. the sounds the codec believes would be inaudible anyway due to psychoacoustic masking, and that can therefore be silenced to save bits). Lossy codec artifacting sounds like "tinkling ringing" because it consists of thousands of these micro-thin slices of the audio spectrum being notched out by vertically-skirted bandstops that turn on and off at light speed. Voltair, by comparison, sounds like "reverberant ringing under a damper" because it consists of 10 equally thin vertically-skirted slices of the spectrum having their audio dramatically upward compressed (loudened/thickened) with a gate to keep the compression from pulling up the noise floor itself.

Here are spectral images of your KOA and KHOW airchecks:

https://files.catbox.moe/0q4on4.jpg
https://files.catbox.moe/toch0f.jpg

Note the 10 "Freddie Kruger claw marks," as I phrased it in my 2022 thread, throughout each one. They're identical to those seen in the KFI spectral image in that thread's first post (direct link).

For a real eye-popping visual of this stuff, take a look at this audio clip I recently grabbed from KLAC 570 AM while they were airing baseball. Baseball game crowd noise, when the announcers aren't talking, has a very soft, gaussian spectral distribution that allows Thor's hammer tracks, as laid down by their Voltair, to stand out like sore thumbs. I put CoolEdit's spectral view into "HD mode" for this one. Just ... yuck!

https://files.catbox.moe/yxdzx5.jpg
https://files.catbox.moe/cpsk4d.jpg (zoomed)
https://files.catbox.moe/29syen.flac (source audio) (I widened the bandwidth 24 seconds in)

If you're interested comparing my market with yours, here is a three and a half minute audio tour of several FM stations in Los Angeles. I simply punched in their frequencies at random, off the top of my head. See which of them you can hear the Voltair in. The stations in this clip, in order, are KYSR, KPWR, KNX, KOST, KCBS, KLOS, KRTH, and KUSC, and I included deliniating beeps. Hint: only two of them are free of Voltair, to both my ears and CoolEdit's spectral viewer. (The amount of amplification a Voltair box performs is user-configurable, so each station has an audibly unique amount.)

https://files.catbox.moe/5junzv.flac

Quite possibly the worst instance of Voltair I've heard, ever, is currently coming from KYLA 92.7 FM here in Los Angeles. These people seem to have their Voltair turned up past 11:

https://files.catbox.moe/vbyw1i.flac

In closing, this stuff leaves me speechless. I never believed I'd witness the broadcast industry so masochistically trashing its own audio, and so systematically. Almost the entire dial is unlistenable to me now, and the bitter irony is, it has become that way out of their desperation for listener metrics. Although there's a tonal similarity of this stuff to lossy codecs, I think that Voltair cranked up high actually sounds worse. The filter ringing produced by bit starved lossy codecs is spectrally diffused and impulse-like. But the sound Voltair creates is fixed at 10 frequencies and smears itself across the audio temporally. So in a sense, it sounds like having an entire discordant chord worth of tinnitus. The sheer egregiousness of that, going by the KYLA example alone, or that unbelievable KLAC spectralgram, should be enough to start having licenses called into question. Don't you think?
 
Ran out of space in my last post. One last point to respond to:
These different considerations also make me wonder about FM HD. I start hearing adverse effects when a station has two digital programs and it gets worse from there. In that case, I guess you have to ask which is worse, artifacts from lossy digital compression or multipath? I'm lukewarm toward FM HD at best, but I can see that that particular question could have different answers based on circumstances.
Depends on what kind of multipath. To me, gaussian noise is preferable to artificial, patternistic artifacts. So if the analog is only suffering a light slathering of white noise, I would prefer that. Even light, occasional picket fencing would be superior in my book to low bitrate digital, especially if the paltry 98 kbit/s available with FM HD is being subdivided across multiple programs.
 
In closing, this stuff leaves me speechless. I never believed I'd witness the broadcast industry so masochistically trashing its own audio, and so systematically.
Wow, talk about a War and Peace post of techno-babble gobbledygook.
Apparently, you never have listened to AM radio? How about FM during the loudness wars of the 80's? Excessively processing radio audio has documented negative effects on listening. This nuanced horse sh*t about perceived digital artifacts appears to have way fewer negative impacts on time spent listening than excessive audio processing.
Almost the entire dial is unlistenable to me now, and the bitter irony is, it has become that way out of their desperation for listener metrics.
My bet is most of your complaint is tied to advanced age and subsequent hearing gain/loss at certain frequencies, not radio stations.
Although there's a tonal similarity of this stuff to lossy codecs, I think that Voltair cranked up high actually sounds worse.
Really? Somewhat anecdotal, but I tried a headphone test with a friend of mine who claimed they could hear the effects of Voltair. Without telling him when Voltair was in line, I switched it in and out and asked him to identify the mode. He was wrong 100% of the time. When I switched Voltair on, he said it went off, and vice versa. Now, to be fair, Voltair was set at a mid-range, not excessive. I'm sure there are exceptions, but most stations I've seen run their Voltairs at mid-range too.
The filter ringing produced by bit starved lossy codecs is spectrally diffused and impulse-like. But the sound Voltair creates is fixed at 10 frequencies and smears itself across the audio temporally. So in a sense, it sounds like having an entire discordant chord worth of tinnitus.
Tinnitus could certainly explain your observations.
The sheer egregiousness of that, going by the KYLA example alone, or that unbelievable KLAC spectralgram, should be enough to start having licenses called into question. Don't you think?
That's absurd. The Commission doesn't regulate perceived audio quality based on someone who thinks they hear something. Beyond silly.
 
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