HD Radio on the Way Out?

[landtuna]

Well, here is one. I have the TV on in the background all the time that I am working, because about 80% of the WorldRadioHistory job is repetitive and boring.

I would not classify "background TV" in the same category as active watching.

 

[Negin]

I would not classify "background TV" in the same category as active watching.

In my case I have my music server playing in the background. Simple Linux box and drives that hold about 2 million songs...

 

[TomásEstefan]

Well dang! I like records!

 

[davideduardo]

I would not classify "background TV" in the same category as active watching.

I can follow simple TV series like "Law & Order: Special Victims Unit"* quite perfectly while writing HTML or working on website content. Not active, but hardly "background" as most plot are quite simple and written for a lowest common denominator.

* Or any other scripted series.

 

[landtuna]

I can follow simple TV series like "Law & Order: Special Victims Unit"* quite perfectly while writing HTML or working on website content. Not active, but hardly "background" as most plot are quite simple and written for a lowest common denominator.

* Or any other scripted series.

I used to listen to the radio while coding but if you asked me what played 4 songs ago I probably couldn't answer you correctly. The music served as "white noise" so that my coworkers conversations didn't distract me.

 

[vchimpanzee]

I can follow simple TV series like "Law & Order: Special Victims Unit"* quite perfectly while writing HTML or working on website content. Not active, but hardly "background" as most plot are quite simple and written for a lowest common denominator.

* Or any other scripted series.

I used to be able to do that while doing homework in college. Of course, i also watched reruns back then. I don't do that now if I've seen the episode, or at least if I can remember seeing it.

 

[vchimpanzee]

The Gecko and Flo are very highly researched. First, they want to know if the ads are seen.

I switched my car insurance to GEICO. Then they made the mistake of telling me I could save by getting my homeowner's insurance. When I tried it turned out they couldn't give it to me in NC. But I ended up saving money by changing my car insurance to the company that I already had homeowner's insurance with.

 

[vchimpanzee]

And I listen to that Oldies station religiously...when I listen. None of their advertising appeals to me though.

Only in the car, and I already get my car repairs done with a garage that happens to advertise.

The people who installed my heat, same thing. They also do electrical and plumbing. It's probably better to get them to repair the heat as well.

 

[cc333]

I always said HD was just a translator feeder and not much else. Streaming has always had far more going for it technically. That's why I always saw streaming, not HD, as radio's future.

That's about all it's good for, and even then, it's very limited because, while most people have HD radios in their cars at this point, many of those people probably don't know how to work said HD radios, and those who do probably prefer to stream instead.

And it is horrifying to watch. But the writing was on the wall 20 years ago. The public wants high-tech, not a quaint old radio dial. The market has spoken

I've been reading the occasional article here and there about a small but growing group of outlier Gen Zers and Millennials who are trying hard to go back to the quaintness of an old radio dial. They're growing quite tired of the invasive and relentless reach of modern tech.

xperi hasn't exactly helped themselves with it's royalty scam. And since there are very few home/portables with HD and cars bailing out of HD, they're going to have to either give that up and start making (gasp!) relevant things or go under. That HD cow has done been milked to dust.

I've never understood all the specifics, but they're just doing what VC does. Most of them actually end up failing sooner or later, and excessive greed and hubris are likely among the main reasons why. The ones with good business sense are the ones that survive and become huge juggernauts like Apple, Google and Meta (aka Facebook).

If the auto makers don't want HD, xperi is in big trouble. Because the radio stations don't want it if they can't semi-profitably run analog translators with it with terrestrial analog FM radio itself vanishing altogether from new/late model cars.

So far, only Tesla has made an effort to remove analog FM, and even then only on an entry model. For what it's worth, most other manufacturers (certainly the domestic ones, along with many of the Japanese makers) still include FM and AM in their radios, at least for now, so analog isn't going away yet.

But fair warning: The new radio replacement they're coming up with is much worse.

Indeed.

You ever go into Walgreens for a green tea and you can't find it because every cooler door has a video ad for something else running on it across the entire door? Imagine the distraction when a big, loud, visual ad suddenly pops up on your entertainment center screen. Especially for a product/service you will never want or need. That will get very old, very fast. So I hope the car industry is planning an opt-out because I really don't see the public reacting well to that.

I haven't seen those "video ad-enabled" coolers in the wild yet, and I hope I never do.

And seriously, people are REALLY tired of the 360° advertising bombardment of life as it is now. Seeing it in their cars isn't going to sit as well as the ad agencies, tech companies and car makers think. Because people see their cars as their personal spaces. And the ads (especially if there is no direct way of shutting them off) will become invasive. Audio advertising is more subtle by comparison. You can change the station, turn down/off the volume, play MP3s/CDs, whatever to tune them out. What's the escape hatch here? Especially when you and your date are having a moment? Or if you have important guests you don't want to embarrass yourself in front of with your car uncontrollably flashing ads for AM/PM hot dogs.

Agreed.

On my computer, I run an ad blocker, two tracker blockers, and a javascript blocker. This takes care of 90% of ads, and I'm always astonished by how many ads there are when I turn it all off or use a browser that isn't set up yet.

The ad agencies aren't going to invest in a system that doesn't put their messages in front of the driver at all times. Or trigger the video screens in the back seat to show toy or fast food commercials. So I expect the worst from it first before legislation straightens it out.

And what's to keep auto manufacturers from having in house ad agencies, radio channels and content makers of their own? They got their buyers complete financials, personal data, address, etc.

They probably won't do it in house any more than they already do (for marketing, etc.), but I can totally see them partnering up with some big ad agencies and selling information to them for a good profit boost.

And there's noting to stop them from doing that, either.

I have a Samsung TV that defaults to its own streaming network menu options when you turn it on. I have to thumb for the HDMI connection my cable is on. That's very possible in this environment too.

When i moved and got a new cable company (Mediacom), I learned that everyone's moving over to IPTV – traditional linear TV carried as a stream over the internet. I have to say that it's not that great. It's been better lately, but in general, it's unreliable, it's always stuttering with movement that isn't smooth, suggesting dropped frames and/or a refresh rate mismatch, and if we leave it on for more than a couple hours, it goes into a standby mode, requiring that we press OK on the remote to bring it back.

I miss good old analog TV. You turned it on, set the channel you wanted, and it would just play until you change the channel or turned it off (or, perhaps, the station signed off). None of this standby nonsense.

And while the UI for simply changing the channel is quite clunky and difficult to use, the UI for buying pay-per-view movies and on demand streaming services has been made frightfully easy to use by accident.

And it's going to be a problem for everybody if the on-board advertising system works better than anything else in the car.

That is awful, and I'm not looking forward to it.

Unfortunately, if all that highly invasive in-car advertising can't be turned off or even muted, what can one do? Trade it in for a used model? Crash the car into a ditch and walk away in disgust?

Because they're more likely to spend without asking questions or doing research.

I think it's foolish to spend money you don't have, regardless of whether you're a college student or retiree.

This is one of the reasons why credit card debt loads have reached crisis levels.

How effective is advertising in your buying process?

Not very. I ignore most of them.

Remember, HD was pushed by broadcasters who were very concerned about "digital" audio back in the era when CDs and DVDs made that a buzzword. Bell Labs, among others, looked for a digital answer for that concern as a way of making money. When Bell was chopped up, the development of what became "HD Radio" was sold to a startup that got venture capital and investments from major broadcasters.

OK.

The model was always based on creating technology and licensing it to both broadcasters and radio set makers. It was never a "scam".

Much of what is permissible under corporate law – which also governs VC – is perfectly legal, but it isn't necessarilly ethical. That said, while I don't know much about Xperi's practices, from what I do know, even though it doesn't technically qualify as a "scam" by law, it is still not particularly ethical.

How else except royalties could Xperi make money when they did not make radios or own radio stations? For the first 20 years of FM, all radios with that band had to pay royalties to Major Armstrong's company.

I agree that they do need to make their money *somehow,* but it's important to be fair and not make their royalties unfairly expensive. The FM royalties are another case in point. Were those royalties fair?

How many brands and what share of the market are eliminating FM? As far as I know, just the low end Tesla (made as a come-on to get people into the dealer and not to be sold in quantities).

Yes, as I said earlier, only some Low-end Teslas are getting their FM radios removed. I also heard on the radio the other day (on AM, inceidentally), that Tesla will be adopting Apple CarPlay, so maybe they're using that to incentivise customers away from using FM so that they can quietly remove it across their entire line eventually?

c

 

[vchimpanzee]

On my computer, I run an ad blocker, two tracker blockers, and a javascript blocker. This takes care of 90% of ads, and I'm always astonished by how many ads there are when I turn it all off or use a browser that isn't set up yet.

I don't even use an ad blocker now. One radio station I listen to online won't allow it and merely turning it off won't change anything. That radio station essentially wants it uninstalled. Someone at McAfee showed me what to do and there IS another way, but it's not worth going to the trouble. There are some interesting ads.

When i moved and got a new cable company (Mediacom), I learned that everyone's moving over to IPTV – traditional linear TV carried as a stream over the internet. I have to say that it's not that great. It's been better lately, but in general, it's unreliable, it's always stuttering with movement that isn't smooth, suggesting dropped frames and/or a refresh rate mismatch, and if we leave it on for more than a couple hours, it goes into a standby mode, requiring that we press OK on the remote to bring it back.

I think my phone company offers this. I wouldn't ant it, and thanks for giving me a good reason. I record everything, and I could never go back to watching live. I'm forced to in motels when I go on vacation. I hate not being able to go back and see what I missed.

And if multiple shows are on at once, I have to record. I don't know if this would work. And not everything is available free online.

 

[cc333]

I think my phone company offers this. I wouldn't ant it, and thanks for giving me a good reason.

Yeah, unfortunately, I couldn't opt out as they're dismantling their old infrastructure and won't let new customers use what's left of it. You either get it with the service, or look elsewhere.

I don't know how the satellite TV companies are anymore, but I know DirecTV is pushing the same IPTV garbage pretty hard (undoubtedly because they're owned by AT&T, who is trying to get 100% of their residential customers, and probably most of their business customers, onto wireless despite obvious disadvantages), but after doing some research, they are apparently still offering their programming via satellite. For now.

c

 

[blindowl1234]

Which is exactly why it doesn't target you any longer. Radio stations program to people who listen.

Radio stations program for people they "hope" will listen. Sometimes they do listen but many aren't listening. My grown children and grandkids never listen. If its not on their phone forget it

 

[blindowl1234]

I totally understand that BUT I am the demo with MONEY. Advertisers like audiences with money (even though it may be tougher to sell to us).

The newer generation (my granddaughters peers) don't even recognize there is a radio option. It's all phone video streaming. She couldn't name three radio stations if her life depended upon it.

Same thing in our family. Two grown kids and numerous grandkids that never listen to AM/FM. Everything they want is on their phone now

 

[Mediafrog+]

I know DirecTV is pushing the same IPTV garbage pretty hard (undoubtedly because they're owned by AT&T

AT&T no longer owns DirecTV.

 

[TheBigA]

Radio stations program for people they "hope" will listen. Sometimes they do listen but many aren't listening. My grown children and grandkids never listen. If its not on their phone forget it

If stations subscribe to Nielsen they have a good picture of who is listening. They know their ages, their income levels, and what programming they like.

Keep in mind that broadcast radio is also available on phones.

 

[blindowl1234]

If stations subscribe to Nielsen they have a good picture of who is listening. They know their ages, their income levels, and what programming they like.

Keep in mind that broadcast radio is also available on phones.

Well if they still do the Nielsen ratings the way they used to survey people, not sure how accurate it was. Sent us a quarter or a dollar in the mail, and asked what stations we listened to. Did the average person give honest answers?

 

[TheBigA]

Well if they still do the Nielsen ratings the way they used to survey people, not sure how accurate it was. Sent us a quarter or a dollar in the mail, and asked what stations we listened to. Did the average person give honest answers?

You're talking about diaries. Most major markets use PPM devices. They're more accurate than diaries. The accuracy of ratings is overseen by the MRC, an outside firm. The devices don't lie. They sense encoded broadcasting signals, and report them.

But yes you're right. People will say all kinds of things. Your children and grandchildren say they never listen to the radio. But it's possible they listen in ways they don't know. So just because they say they don't listen to the radio doesn't mean they never do. That's why Nielsen uses PPM, which accurately measures real listening, not what people say.

 

[Mediafrog+]

Well if they still do the Nielsen ratings the way they used to survey people, not sure how accurate it was. Sent us a quarter or a dollar in the mail, and asked what stations we listened to. Did the average person give honest answers?

Larger markets use PPMs which is a more accurate method of quantifying audiences.

The old diaries were largely works of fiction, only providing a vague picture of reality.

 

[derek20la]

There is no similar technological leap to new TVs themselves with the switch to ATSC 3.0, at least as far as most consumers are aware or concerned, thus a lack of demand.

Not a single TV that Walmart sells today supports ATSC 3.0. Even at Costco which does sell some models that support it, no one is choosing a TV simply for that reason.

 

[davideduardo]

Well if they still do the Nielsen ratings the way they used to survey people, not sure how accurate it was. Sent us a quarter or a dollar in the mail, and asked what stations we listened to. Did the average person give honest answers?

That is an inaccurate interpretation of how the written diary system worked. In fact, a family or person recruited to fill in the diary was only "active" for 7 days, during which the would write in a detailed "diary" type booklet what they listened to , when they listened, and where they listened.

Studies have shown that the vast majority of participants give responses as accurately as they can.

The methodology is accurate enough to be accepted by an industry group made up mostly of people from the advertising industry... the ones who used that information to invest millions of dollars in radio ad buys.

In the biggest markets, Nielsen now has a "panel" that can have families / households participating for up to and sometimes over 2 years. Measurement is done by a passive device that detects what is being listened to through the detection of sub-audible codded data streams which can be broadcast as many as 12 times a minute, all day long. Participants get quite significant incentives.

Google AI says:

The Nielsen Personal Meter, also known as the Portable People Meter (PPM), works by detecting hidden audio codes embedded in broadcast audio signals from TV and radio stations. Panelists wear the device, which logs the codes to measure media consumption. The data is then sent to Nielsen, which combines it with other households' information to generate ratings.



How it works

• Audio-coding: Radio and TV stations embed inaudible, unique codes into their broadcasts.
  

• Detection: The wearable meter detects these codes in real-time when worn by a panelist.
  

• Logging: The device records which station was being listened to and for how long.
  

• Data transmission: The meter transmits the collected data to a base station at home, which sends it to Nielsen nightly.
  

• Data analysis: Nielsen combines the data from all participating households to create audience ratings for TV and radio.
  

How it's used by participants

• Wear the meter: To be counted, the participant must wear the device throughout their day.
  

• Keep it on: A blinking green light indicates the meter is working and recording.
  

• Charge it: The meter is placed on a base station overnight to charge and upload data.
  

• View messages: Tapping the screen allows participants to check messages and see how many points they have earned.
  

• Earn rewards: Participants earn points for consistently wearing the meter, which determines their monthly payment.
  

• Personal use: Each person in a participating household receives their own meter, and it is important to not use someone else's device.