• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

1. Is PBS/NPR still an important part of the broadcasting landscape?

No strawman at all. Either public funding is zero or it isn't. As I mentioned, ANY public funding of an entity that competes with (other) private enterprise for the same dollars is unacceptable to me. (Side note: This is why I oppose any bailout of Chrysler or GM. Ford is being punished because it didn't fail.)

I have no problem with 'public' stations selling advertising (which is essentially what they do now, save for some sacred terminology designed to disguise something as other than what it is). Provided that the advantages given to those broadcasters, be it direct funding or indirect advantages such as tower sites mentioned above, is eliminated.

Every broadcast operation has its cash cows and its money pits. Overnight programming is usually unprofitable (most certainly live and local is), yet stations routinely continue operation during the unprofitable periods just the same.

Scott, the programming that 'commercial broadcasters won't touch' is completely understood. The problem I have is the hybrid: The mixing of that type of program with popular ones (such as WHYY's drive-time offering above), yet all benefit from the advantages of government funding/grants/preferential treatment/etc.

If public broadcasting wishes to reach into the vast pot of gold that commercial broadcasters compete for, I don't appreciate the government buying the ladder to give those stations a boost...at taxpayer expense. The political implications of PBS/NPR broadcasts, while frustrating, is secondary. The unfair advantage given to some while others struggle, is my primary beef.

Given the current mood of Washington to punish success and reward failure, I don't see anything changing in this regard. At least in the short term.
 
I think we've both fully stated our positions and laid out our personal biases here, and I don't think either of our minds are going to be changed...so I'm (mostly) content to agree to disagree with you here, but for one point:

jeffwoehrle said:
Every broadcast operation has its cash cows and its money pits. Overnight programming is usually unprofitable (most certainly live and local is), yet stations routinely continue operation during the unprofitable periods just the same.

Scott, the programming that 'commercial broadcasters won't touch' is completely understood. The problem I have is the hybrid: The mixing of that type of program with popular ones (such as WHYY's drive-time offering above), yet all benefit from the advantages of government funding/grants/preferential treatment/etc.

So what's the better solution here? Your suggestion, which (as I understand it) is that all subsidies for noncommercial broadcasting be eliminated and "public" stations be allowed to compete as fully commercial operations, would mean the immediate end of the sort of programming that requires those subsidies, and for which those subsidies are narrowly targeted.

There is, as I think you're well aware, a difference between a commercial radio station running automated during an unprofitable overnight period, at the expense only of a power bill and an automation system, and a public station actively PRODUCING programming for educational purposes or for the disabled. That costs serious money, and it's money no commercial station, beholden to the requirement that it generate the maximum possible profit for its owners, would put out for very long. Take public broadcasting commercial and you'll replace that programming with what - more infomercials? I fail to see how that serves the public good. I certainly don't see many commercial stations live and local in the overnight hours these days.

And for all your rhetoric about the alleged "unfair advantage" at which noncomm broadcasters operate, I continue to maintain that the rigorous requirements of 501(c)(3) nonprofit operation serve to level that playing field, and then some, by mandating that those noncomm stations plow every dollar they make back into that very unprofitable (but important) public-service programming.

If public broadcasting wishes to reach into the vast pot of gold that commercial broadcasters compete for, I don't appreciate the government buying the ladder to give those stations a boost...at taxpayer expense. The political implications of PBS/NPR broadcasts, while frustrating, is secondary. The unfair advantage given to some while others struggle, is my primary beef.

Given the current mood of Washington to punish success and reward failure, I don't see anything changing in this regard. At least in the short term.

All of the commercial broadcasters I know these days, without exception, would really like to know where that mythical "vast pot of gold" is and how they might get some of it.

"Success," as you seem to wish to define it through your admitted political biases, seems to be in short supply in today's commercial radio industry - and the rewards for failure are being reaped, at least as I see it, not in Washington but by the executives in New York and San Antonio and Las Vegas who managed to enrich themselves even as the station groups they managed have skidded into bankruptcy and near-irrelevance. (And, yes, they did it with a significant taxpayer-funded "unfair advantage" of their own - read up on the "Reverse Morris Trust" that gave government blessing to Citadel's financially-unsupportable buyout of ABC Radio and then do the math; you'll see that more tax dollars were lost as a result of that somewhat-shady tax dodge, at no benefit whatsoever to the public, than have been expended on subsidies for public broadcasting over the course of the last few years.)

So here's the shorter form of where I think our difference lies: you seem to believe that the government funding that subsidizes certain unprofitable portions of the broadcast day on public TV and radio creates an insurmountable advantage that somehow significantly impairs commercial broadcasting from fully competing.

If I may be blunter than usual for a moment, I think that's a weak excuse. I think it ignores the significant field-leveling advantages that full commercial operation provides in comparison to the operational and content limitations imposed by noncommercial/nonprofit operation. I think it creates an easy - lazy, even - excuse to point the finger at a convenient scapegoat in lieu of confronting some of the much bigger problems that commercial broadcasting brought on itself over the last decade and a half.

And I've been fortunate, I guess, to work in markets where commercial and noncommercial broadcasters have understood that there's more to gain by treating each other as colleagues instead of as rivals. When I worked for the late, lamented Westinghouse Broadcasting in Boston, the company donated tower space on its WBZ-TV tower for public stations WGBH-TV/WGBX. Here in Rochester, my former commercial employer - Time Warner's R News - provides weather forecasts and some news audio to my current noncomm part-time employer, WXXI, and WXXI has spent many hours of airtime and untold hours of staff time providing educational programming and phone banks for DTV conversion information. The commercial stations in town were happy to work with us on that (yes, even though we received some federal funding to help pay for the project) because it helped them get the word out without having to expend airtime that they could be selling.

I think everyone came out ahead there, and that's just one of the many ways in which the stations up here cooperate. (On election nights, we've cooperated with locally-owned commercial station WDKX-FM to share radio coverage, and we have some partnerships to share political coverage and polling with commercial TV station WHAM-TV and the local daily newspaper, just to name a few.)

It seems to me (and I speak here only for myself, not for any of my employers past or present) that the "public interest, convenience and necessity" that we're all pledged to serve is in fact served better this way, and I don't think you'd find many broadcasters on either side of the fence in this market who'd disagree.
 
Scott, my position is probably as clear as yours, but I'll restate in the interest of brevity.

I am against government subsidies for any business that competes for the same dollars as other businesses that do not receive the same subsidy.

My position applies to car manufacturers as well as radio/TV broadcasters.

Take public money - swear off money for commercials. Take money from businesses, swear off public funds.

If Government Motors gets a subsidy to produce the mythical 'green' automobile, that subsidy directly impacts the balance of their operations. Somewhere, somehow, money mingles. Now, GM is in a position of getting far more than the random carrot to produce an automobile that few want, but the comparison with 'selected' programs on public radio/TV is apt.

I'm sure neither of our minds have been changed, but this discussion was a good one. Best wishes to you.

Jeff
 
Jeff, that one line sums up your argument so clearly and succinctly that it deserves reposting:

"Take public money - swear off money for commercials. Take money from businesses, swear off public funds."
 
Re: 1. Is PBS/NPR still an important part of the brCPoadcasting landscape?

exmagic said:
Jeff, that one line sums up your argument so clearly and succinctly that it deserves reposting:

"Take public money - swear off money for commercials. Take money from businesses, swear off public funds."

I, too, admire the simplicity of Jeff's line of thought here. And if we could roll back the clock to, oh, 1927 or so and rebuild the entire broadcasting model in the U.S. from scratch, it might even work. '

Unfortunately, there's been eight decades of entanglements in the meantime, on both sides of the divide.

Some history? As far back as the late twenties, commercial broadcasters - aided and abetted by the Federal Radio Commission and then by the FCC and paid for by your tax dollars (well, grandpa's tax dollars, anyway) - worked diligently to make sure that colleges, universities, high schools, religious groups, municipalities and anyone else interested in using radio for non-profit purposes got shoved to the far edges of the radio dial, forced to share time on unfavorable terms, or simply lost their licenses outright.

Even playing field? Quick - how many of the 25 class I-A clear channels (allocated in the late 20s/early 30s) went to noncommercial operators? None. And how much did those commercial operators (and the hundreds of others who got prime regional fulltime AM channels) pay for the privilege of using those prime facilities, which even today are worth many tens of millions of dollars and have allowed them to generate untold billions of dollars in revenues over the years? (Money which can be and is taken out of those businesses for the benefit of the owners, something a nonprofit organization can't do.)

Right again - they got 'em for free. From the government. And most of those same operators went on to get - again, for free - the choicest of high-powered VHF TV channels and high-class FM facilities in the fifties and sixties, while noncommercial broadcasters, what few were left, were largely shuffled off to less-favorable UHF channels and the FM ghetto at the bottom of the band. (This, again, by the same government that's allegedly tilting the playing field in favor of commercial broadcasters.)

The formation of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting in 1967 was meant to tilt a balance that by then had been tipped very strongly in favor of commercial broadcasting interests for...well, for the entire history of American radio and TV up until then.

Here's where it starts to get interesting and a little weird. While "public broadcasting" in other countries involved state-controlled radio and TV monoliths, often with a monopoly on all broadcasting (there was, for instance, no commercial radio in Britain until 1973!), the new "public broadcasting" in the US was a patchwork of local stations controlled by a variety of licensees. There were some public universities, especially in the midwest, that had already been operating "educational" stations on shoestring budgets. There were some newly-formed community groups (like the one that put WVIA on the air). There were some states (especially down south, but also including New Jersey) that went into the broadcasting business, often but not always by way of the state university as a means of extending its educational outreach.

And because our government chose to fund its new public broadcasting system minimally - to the tune of only a couple of dollars per taxpayer per year at the peak of federal funding, and less than half that today - those new broadcasters never had a prayer of operating a viable station solely with government funding. (Compare this to the UK, where the mandatory per-household license fees that fully fund the BBC now total several HUNDRED dollars per year, or Canada, where the CBC is funded by the government to the tune of several dozen dollars per taxpayer per year.)

That's how we ended up with the goofy system of funding we now have for public broadcasting: for stations operating on a shoestring in the late sixties and early seventies, which was nearly all of them, it was scrape or die. All the aspects of public broadcasting that we now take for granted - pledge drives, business underwriting, even the humble NPR tote bag - came out of this era, as stations scrambled to keep the lights on so they could meet their educational missions, which were never fully (or even close to fully) funded by the feds.

Here's where it really starts to get interesting: Because these things don't happen in a vacuum, public radio, which was quite literally an ill-defined, last-second afterthought in the TV-centric act that created CPB in 1967, slowly started to do a lot of things that commercial radio used to do and had stopped doing in the rush to conglomeration. (A rush, once again, significantly aided by government actions that hugely enriched large commercial radio operators by allowing them to escape expensive public-service obligations and to acquire ever-larger clusters of stations.)

Classical music? Dead now on commercial radio, with a handful of stragglers - but public radio took over that role, and whatever audience went with it. Long-form newscasts? Ditto. Weekend variety and quiz shows? Long gone from commercial network radio, but alive and well on public radio.

It's quite true that in all of those roles, public radio competes - avidly, even - for the same audience and even the same advertising/underwriting dollars that commercial radio does. But I think it's also true that these are all roles (and ultimately ears and ad dollars) that commercial radio, with its 50-year head start on public radio at the national level, chose to walk away from. Here in Rochester, WXXI didn't set out to end up with the largest local radio news staff. It ended up that way by default as most of the commercial stations in town took advantage of looser FCC rules on public service and shuttered their newsrooms entirely. (And we're lucky, as markets go these days - our lone remaining commercial radio newsroom still originates most of its newscasts locally, unlike a lot of Clear Channel markets where the hourly "local" news is now coming from hundreds of miles away.)

Again, none of those more recent roles are being funded by public dollars. But because of the way the public broadcasting system has evolved haphazardly over the last half-century, organizations like WVIA and WITF and WHYY play multiple roles: they're drawing growing audiences (and listener and underwriter support) for some of their radio programming even as they continue to hew to their original missions of providing the sort of educational and other niche programming that no other medium will provide.

In an ideal world, it might be nice to separate those roles - to put the NPR programming under a completely separate umbrella free of any association with public funding, while providing full public funding (likely at greater expense than present) for the niche stuff like homework call-ins and radio reading services.

We do not live in an ideal world, and never have. The playing field in broadcasting was far from level when "public radio" as we know it began four decades ago, and any fair reckoning of the situation has to acknowledge the many ways in which government action has tilted matters unevenly in both directions over the years. How many commercial station sales over the next few years will be made possible by lending institutions propped up by federal TARP money? What, for that matter, of the $1 billion in federal bailout money - more than twice the entire $400 million CPB operating budget for 2009 - that just went to Lincoln Financial, parent company of for-profit broadcaster Lincoln Financial Media? That's "taking public money," right - so should those stations therefore be barred from selling commercials?

Or would you argue (as I would) that the bailout money is going to a completely separate arm of Lincoln from the broadcasting unit? And if so, how is that any different from the multiple roles played by public broadcasters these days?

One last thought before I call it quits for the night: there is, I think, a big difference between the public broadcasting system, which was designed from the start to be funded incompletely by government dollars, and the bailouts of failed for-profit companies such as GM and Chrysler, to which Jeff seeks to make a comparison. But if you're going to insist on the comparison, I'd maintain that there's a gray area even there. As I read it, some of the strongest opposition to the infusion of government money into GM/Chrysler came from the senators and House members representing the (largely southern) states where companies like Honda and BMW and Nissan have set up newer auto plants. But those plants didn't get there by accident - they, too, were the recipients of lots of public money at their inception, thanks to the massive tax breaks those states provided to lure them there. The "level playing field" was never quite so level there, either...and if there's a solution, I don't think it can be summed up in one line.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom