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A Quest to Buy an HD Radio In Cincy ---

R

rbrucecarter5

Guest
This article was linked over on the Yahoo ABDX list:

http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0049/t.11929.html

My response over there ---

I thought this was a textbook case of mismarketing by the HD radio
industry. But it also highlights the basic problem with the system -
lack of robustness. Their response? 10 dB more power on the sidebands
to add to everybody else's misery. The problem is - consumer apathy.
I'm not convinced more robustness is the solution to consumer apathy.
This looks like another AM stereo in the making, and nothing short of
the FCC mandating the system in all radios is going to solve that. The
FCC can mandate things - they mandated teletext for the deaf, now it is
ubiquitous and people even like to mute the TV and turn text on when
they are on the phone.

Some further ramblings --- HD radio will be studied for years in college marketing courses as a textbook failure in how to market to consumers. Ibiquity was so wrapped up in figuring if the COULD make it work, that nobody in Ibiquity or the industry stopped to ask consumers if they SHOULD do it. Where were the focus groups - or was it a case of a bunch of high ranking suits in the industry getting together in a room, panic striken because people are deserting corporate radio, and somebody knew that people are accepting HDTV, so digital must be the answer. After all, there was nothing wrong with the programming - it must be delivery. A bunch of yes-men meetings later, and the race was on to adopt digital and foist it on the public - who were never consulted about whether they wanted it or not.

Fifteen years later, we have a system that doesn't work unless you are a DX'er (who by the way could have been strong allies, but were purposely alienated), receivers in stores that don't work, a public enamored with iPods, satellite, streaming audio, and DVD video in cars. The window of opportunity is gone, if it ever existed at all. Ibiquity needed to make darn sure it would WORK under normal to adverse listening conditions - just ideal - which they obviously did NOT. Without a working system in stores, any chance of the consumer "wow" factor vanishes and the 30 seconds they spent in front of the display goes to the flashing lights and "wow factor" in the satellite, iPods, or whatever is competing for their dollar. That half a billion dollar investment in marketing buys you the 30 seconds in the store when the decision is made, if the technology fails (or fails to impress), all the money in the world probably won't get them back for a second look. You can be darn sure that Apple, XM, and Sirius have invested the money to make sure their product works in the stores, and sales people understand it. As it stands now, HD radio doesn't stand a chance if it doesn't work in the stores. And the HD cartel are making ads that appeal to themselves, not consumers.
 
EXCELLENT post, rbruce. Except the HD radio ads don't really even appeal to insiders. The boards are full of criticism of these dopey promos. And the weak creative is actually counterproductive. I've heard many complaints about the incessant HD promos which listeners find repetitive, meaningless and irritating.

Far from motivating consumers to try the new wonderful digital HD product, the HD Alliance spots may actually be alienating existing analog listeners.
 
I hate to state this, but most (passive) listeners don't care and use the radio as an appliance. Why does (commercial) terrestrial radio station conglomerates now put inventive programming on radios only less then 1% of the national population own? If they are so worried about the influx of newer technology eroding their base, then they should put more thought into their primary frequency and its programming.

Granted, I have an HD Radio (mainly for public stations and a couple commercial sidechannels), but see that the regular consumer will pretty much do the same old habitual ideal that worked with analog: nothing (just ball the antenna on the floor and hope for the best). Heck, I'm 40 miles out from the major metropolis where I get the brunt of HD stations, and receive all FM stations with the supplied T-antenna (granted, tacked lengthwise against the ceiling, focused to the signal). And one wonders why one returns an HD Radio (besides the fact there is no station in their area broadcasting in HD)?
 
Savage said:
EXCELLENT post, rbruce. Except the HD radio ads don't really even appeal to insiders. The boards are full of criticism of these dopey promos. And the weak creative is actually counterproductive. I've heard many complaints about the incessant HD promos which listeners find repetitive, meaningless and irritating.

Far from motivating consumers to try the new wonderful digital HD product, the HD Alliance spots may actually be alienating existing analog listeners.

I posted this elsewhere I think, but I've turned off one of my favorite FM stations pretty much for good because of the intelligence-insulting, moronic HD ads they have been runing which are so grating that I can't get used to them. They make the average beer commercial look like it was targeted for geniuses.
 
KB1OKL said:
I posted this elsewhere I think, but I've turned off one of my favorite FM stations pretty much for good because of the intelligence-insulting, moronic HD ads they have been runing which are so grating that I can't get used to them. They make the average beer commercial look like it was targeted for geniuses.

Well, let me offer salutations for your purity of conviction against this dastardly system.

Seriously, this is really a riot, the idea that you'ld give up your "favorite" station over a commercial. Really shows adult perspective.

BTW: Your radio is equipped with a volume control...isn't it?

Keep tellin' em.

Lino
 
staticradio said:
nothing (just ball the antenna on the floor and hope for the best). Heck, I'm 40 miles out from the major metropolis where I get the brunt of HD stations, and receive all FM stations with the supplied T-antenna (granted, tacked lengthwise against the ceiling, focused to the signal). And one wonders why one returns an HD Radio (besides the fact there is no station in their area broadcasting in HD)?

I've got you beat - I can do 50 miles with a dipole. The same type of dipole does analog reception over 100 miles, but that tuner is on the second floor. But the dipole at the ceiling line is ugly as heck, and that is why most consumers won't use it properly.

I see two types of scenarios here. People like us who can make it work 30 to 50 miles out - and people who can't do it 10 miles out. What is different? I am speculating concrete and rebar construction. Not typical of suburban houses, but very typical in a densely populated city. HD radio has to address both - and there area lot of people living in concrete towers in cities. Those HD radios, combined with a dipole on the floor or ridiculous "amplified" antenna, won't get HD. BIG PROBLEM for the HD cartel. Most of those folks probably have crummy analog reception, and a few of them might even realize it.

The basics of reception don't seem to have changed. If you have a horrible listening scenario before, you still have it with HD, which has done nothing to overcome the rebar and concrete problem. That is probably why it doesn't work in stores either. If you had a decent listening scenario before - suburban house with wood frame / brick / drywall construction, HD is probably going to work out to 50 miles and beyond.

The sad thing is - I don't think a power increase is going to help in the concrete jungle. The main problem if you overcome attenuation from tons of concrete and rebar is multipath. I just don't see HD recovering from that easily. Once you get lock, if the bits stream in faster than than they are played - you are OK. But too many bit errors, and you are right back where you were before. And multipath, it seems to me, would cause lots of bit errors.
 
All true, rbruce, except in the case of HD-AM, it's been pretty well established in field experience that a nighttime signal strength approaching 40 mv/m (analog) is necessary for reliable digital decode.

The very high signal strength is necessary to overcome typical skywave interference found on the AM band. That's EIGHT TIMES the traditional level considered "city-grade" on AM.

Given today's prevalent directional antenna systems, complex patterns and deep nulls, the requirement for massive signal strength for reliable HD operation spells huge problems for implementation of the system. People will just not put up with the mode-hopping and limited coverage - to get the SAME talk and sports programming they get on analog. Essentially, you need a 50kw NDA signal to get even "acceptable" HD operation. And that assumes your listening environment is free of noise or other types of LOCAL interference. As has been repeatedly noted here, that isn't a practical assumption either.
 
A few comments:

First, AM Stereo worked, and still works without causing damage to its neighbors on the band, and third generation tuners are great. Maybe it will take a 3rd generation HD to get it right?

Second, I'm surprised Clear Channel / Cumulus / CBS Radio hasn't bought out XM and/or Sirius as a new distribution method.

Third, It is harder than hell to get HD to work in the stores without some outside 'help' (hint- add an antenna outside the tin can buildings. The only exception at 5 local stores: one BestBuy store is literally in the shadow of the 50KW FM tower - so it gets that station in HD, but it desenses the (Sony) HD radio so much so (or they're that weak) that none of the other 7 FM HD stations will lock. 5KW AM < 5 miles away in major lobe - will not lock inside that store either. Makes it a hard sell. I play with the antennae in the store every time trying to get it to work to sell some of those pretty Sony HD rigs. The cartel needs to send out some antenna systems to the major stores?
 
Given the current state of technology a third, fifth or fiftieth generation of HD wouldn't be likely to work appreciably better. There isn't enough bandwidth for analog and digital to co-exist in the same channel - especially on AM. If this were possible it would have been accomplished already. The system has been in development since 1990 - it is what it is. And it isn't enough.

With consumer products you don't get a second bite of the apple. If the product isn't ready, and doesn't capture the imagination and desire of the target market consumer, it's dead. You don't get another chance. The likely first adopters for HD Radio have bought their first units, and a huge proportion - according to some sources, most of them - have been returned as "defective." This is death for a consumer audio device. If the system isn't robust enough to thrive in the hands of consumers, manufacturer commitment evaporates. That's why the BA Receptor HD is history. So on the purchaser and manufacturer ends HD had its shot, and blew it.

It's been proven over and over: radio listeners will NOT futz with an external antenna. Hobbyists and us guys on this board maybe, but not Mrs. Soccer Mom who just wants a nice clock radio on her bedside table.
 
Savage said:
Given the current state of technology a third, fifth or fiftieth generation of HD wouldn't be likely to work appreciably better. There isn't enough bandwidth for analog and digital to co-exist in the same channel - especially on AM. If this were possible it would have been accomplished already. The system has been in development since 1990 - it is what it is. And it isn't enough.

With consumer products you don't get a second bite of the apple. If the product isn't ready, and doesn't capture the imagination and desire of the target market consumer, it's dead. You don't get another chance. The likely first adopters for HD Radio have bought their first units, and a huge proportion - according to some sources, most of them - have been returned as "defective." This is death for a consumer audio device. If the system isn't robust enough to thrive in the hands of consumers, manufacturer commitment evaporates. That's why the BA Receptor HD is history. So on the purchaser and manufacturer ends HD had its shot, and blew it.

It's been proven over and over: radio listeners will NOT futz with an external antenna. Hobbyists and us guys on this board maybe, but not Mrs. Soccer Mom who just wants a nice clock radio on her bedside table.

http://www.bostonacoustics.com/home_product.aspx?product_id=325

Righ as always. It amazes me how this discontinued item (what is it now 6 months or a year since this was discontinued?) is still listed 'for sale' on the B.A. web site. I guess the word hasn't filtered down to B.A. yet. The know it alls on this board have stated that the Receptor HD is no longer being sold. Right as always folks.
 
R.F. Burns said:
Savage said:
Given the current state of technology a third, fifth or fiftieth generation of HD wouldn't be likely to work appreciably better. There isn't enough bandwidth for analog and digital to co-exist in the same channel - especially on AM. If this were possible it would have been accomplished already. The system has been in development since 1990 - it is what it is. And it isn't enough.

With consumer products you don't get a second bite of the apple. If the product isn't ready, and doesn't capture the imagination and desire of the target market consumer, it's dead. You don't get another chance. The likely first adopters for HD Radio have bought their first units, and a huge proportion - according to some sources, most of them - have been returned as "defective." This is death for a consumer audio device. If the system isn't robust enough to thrive in the hands of consumers, manufacturer commitment evaporates. That's why the BA Receptor HD is history. So on the purchaser and manufacturer ends HD had its shot, and blew it.

It's been proven over and over: radio listeners will NOT futz with an external antenna. Hobbyists and us guys on this board maybe, but not Mrs. Soccer Mom who just wants a nice clock radio on her bedside table.

http://www.bostonacoustics.com/home_product.aspx?product_id=325

Righ as always. It amazes me how this discontinued item (what is it now 6 months or a year since this was discontinued?) is still listed 'for sale' on the B.A. web site. I guess the word hasn't filtered down to B.A. yet. The know it alls on this board have stated that the Receptor HD is no longer being sold. Right as always folks.

Who of
The know it alls on this board have stated that the Receptor HD is no longer being sold.???
Wrong, as always, Burns. It's no longer being manufactured.
Apparently sales are so slow, and returns so many that existing stock may last forever. Isn't recycling wonderful?
 
SUPERCASTER said:
R.F. Burns said:
Savage said:
Given the current state of technology a third, fifth or fiftieth generation of HD wouldn't be likely to work appreciably better. There isn't enough bandwidth for analog and digital to co-exist in the same channel - especially on AM. If this were possible it would have been accomplished already. The system has been in development since 1990 - it is what it is. And it isn't enough.

With consumer products you don't get a second bite of the apple. If the product isn't ready, and doesn't capture the imagination and desire of the target market consumer, it's dead. You don't get another chance. The likely first adopters for HD Radio have bought their first units, and a huge proportion - according to some sources, most of them - have been returned as "defective." This is death for a consumer audio device. If the system isn't robust enough to thrive in the hands of consumers, manufacturer commitment evaporates. That's why the BA Receptor HD is history. So on the purchaser and manufacturer ends HD had its shot, and blew it.

It's been proven over and over: radio listeners will NOT futz with an external antenna. Hobbyists and us guys on this board maybe, but not Mrs. Soccer Mom who just wants a nice clock radio on her bedside table.

http://www.bostonacoustics.com/home_product.aspx?product_id=325

Righ as always. It amazes me how this discontinued item (what is it now 6 months or a year since this was discontinued?) is still listed 'for sale' on the B.A. web site. I guess the word hasn't filtered down to B.A. yet. The know it alls on this board have stated that the Receptor HD is no longer being sold. Right as always folks.

Who of
The know it alls on this board have stated that the Receptor HD is no longer being sold.???
Wrong, as always, Burns. It's no longer being manufactured.
Apparently sales are so slow, and returns so many that existing stock may last forever. Isn't recycling wonderful?


As always huh? According to your theories HD Radio is dead or dying. It is not. As for the HD Receptor, it still has a page on the B.A. website. Radio models usually have a lifespan. Even if the HD Receptor's life has come to an end, HD radio in general is constantkly expanding with new radios coming on line as well as more new broadcasters adopting this technology. As I see it, so far the only one who's been wrong nearly 100% or the time, has been you. Instead of discusing commercial broadcasting, a subject you obviously know little about. Might I suggest you get your face out from behind the mirror and check out whats happening in the real world.
 
Reply to R. F. Burns rant and derisions:
So huge quantities of HD Radios will live on forever in stock rooms, warehouses, dollar stores and closeout sales everywhere?
Who cares, as long as it's going off the air?

To quote R. F. Burns:
Instead of discusing commercial broadcasting, a subject you obviously know little about. Might I suggest you get your face out from behind the mirror and check out whats happening in the real world.
I agree, you should get out more often. :D
 
SUPERCASTER said:
Reply to R. F. Burns rant and derisions:
So huge quantities of HD Radios will live on forever in stock rooms, warehouses, dollar stores and closeout sales everywhere?
Who cares, as long as it's going off the air?

To quote R. F. Burns:
Instead of discusing commercial broadcasting, a subject you obviously know little about. Might I suggest you get your face out from behind the mirror and check out whats happening in the real world.
I agree, you should get out more often. :D


Going of the air? Who do you think you are kidding. I guess it would be inappropriate for me to hope that a 50 KW AM IBOC station starts up on your first adjacent. As to getting out more often, what can I say except that it was quite the retort to my initial comment and oh such an original statement.
 
For the record, RF my friend, I never made the claim that the BA Receptor HD "is no longer being sold." The words I used were "The BA Receptor HD is history," meaning, the company's commitment to the product is over. Boston Acoustics announced it was discontinuing the item with no replacement model in development. I think it's fair to assume that the company evaluated whether
 
...what the heck? Is my computer in "auto-post" mode this morning??

Anyway: as I was saying when I was rudely interrupted by Windows hegemony:

I think it's fair to assume that the company evaluated whether HD Radio was a viable product for them to develop, offer and sell - and decided "nope."

Naturally you would expect BA to try to sell existing inventory, rather than just carting what's left out to the dumpster. That doesn't mean the company has any commitment to, or interest in, HD going forward.

Studebaker automobiles were produced in Canada until 1966, three years after assembly ceased in South Bend. When their Hamilton, Ontario plant closed, a fleet of brand-new Studys was closed up in a warehouse. You could buy a NOS Studebaker, I am told, from various sources until the late 1970s until they were eventually bought up at steep discounts by enthusiasts. That doesn't indicate McGraw Industries of Canada had a "commitment" to Studebaker automobiles.
 
My old buddy R.F. Burns extrapolated:

According to your theories HD Radio is dead or dying.

AM HD Radio SHOULD be dead (or dying).

It is not.

It will.

iBiquity can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but eventually, AM radio stations will wise up and cut their losses and they will abandon their little excursion into this horribly inadequate "experiment". That will be the day that AM radio will sound marvelous and fabulous and listeners will start tuning in again.

This will begin sooner rather than later. The bleeding of listeners away from AM because of HD must stop.

You heard it here first.
 
Cal Stymes said:
My old buddy R.F. Burns extrapolated:

According to your theories HD Radio is dead or dying.

AM HD Radio SHOULD be dead (or dying).

It is not.

It will.

iBiquity can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but eventually, AM radio stations will wise up and cut their losses and they will abandon their little excursion into this horribly inadequate "experiment". That will be the day that AM radio will sound marvelous and fabulous and listeners will start tuning in again.

This will begin sooner rather than later. The bleeding of listeners away from AM because of HD must stop.

You heard it here first.


On the other hand how about this from the WFUV web site;

HD Radio is a digital technology that offers new listening options and upgraded audio quality. If you're in the New York City area, you can hear WFUV in HD radio at 90.7 FM. With an HD tuner, WFUV becomes 2 stations in one. (And in Fall 2008, we'll even begin offering a third station!)

Yep, a third HD channel is coming this fall. Sure sounds like a losing technology to me. As for AM IBOC, I agree with some, that it isn't ideal but then again, It matters not because I can see the day when most AM facilities either go dark or become mirrors of our domestic commercial SW outlets. Either way the future for AM isn't a bright one. You want to talk reality, how about this, why is it that on car radios we have 10 FM presets and only 5 AM presets? AM Radio is dying. Maybe HD isn't the answer but at least it's an attempt, like it or not.
 
Well, since this thread indicates Cincinnati, and my hometown is 40-miles away – I’ll offer the single-remaining “stooge” of “HD” my humble rebuttal and communicate my “real-world” observations. At that distance – THERE IS NO reliable HD reception of ANY FM or AM station [even the “HD blast-furnace” 700-WLW] transmitted from the ex-urban Cincy market... BTW, my boyhood home is within the Cincinnati TV market and nearly ALL viable AM and FM stations are receivable in ANALOG there on a $40 clock radio – NOT on a $250 “HD” radio in the “HD” mode... WHAT ???

FM “HD” – Where are you outside Cincy? ..."Nation's Station-WLW – your once-fine analog signal is DEGRADED to the point that it is nearly un-listenable – flooded with “hiss” from your useless “HD” sidebands – and muffled in fidelity on even a pedestrian $40 radio [the typical AM receiver-of-choice by many]... It sounds even worst on a CCRadio and extemporary Sangean WR-2!

This is a HORRIBLE “technology”... I CAN’T rationally-understand how ANY rational mind could promote or defend it. I revert to my basic marketing sense that [irregardless of the “sandbox” in this jaded R-I forum] – the “marketplace” WILL be the BEST judge-‘n-jury and render this experiment MOOT 'n DOA!
 
Savage said:
...what the heck? Is my computer in "auto-post" mode this morning??
Anyway: as I was saying when I was rudely interrupted by Windows hegemony:

I think it's fair to assume that the company evaluated whether HD Radio was a viable product for them to develop, offer and sell - and decided "nope."

The BA was deafened by poor shielding brought on by attempting to stuff a high power processor into a familiar form-factor. This was well known by the time BA stopped production.

In my direct comparison between side-by-side samples of the BA an Acurian, there was no debate, the Acurian brought in both digital and analog even in a showroom setting, the BA mostly interstation noise. Talk to any Radio Shack salesman who was there in fall 2006, they'll tell you the same.

as I was saying when I was rudely interrupted by Windows hegemony:

-There is allways Apple or that commie creation Linux!

Lino
 
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