Analog Channels of One Station that Became Digital Channels of Another

[fybush]

Hey, let's have the same debate about virtual channels yet again! ;D

In all seriousness, though, one of the big arguments in favor of channel mapping is exactly the scenario that started this thread: in a market like Tulsa, where KJRH (analog 2) ends up on the RF channel (8) that used to belong to its competitor KTUL, can anyone really make a rational case that KJRH should change its entire identity from "channel 2" to "channel 8" while KTUL goes from "channel 8" to "channel 44" or wherever it's ended up?

And of course there's another round of channel repacking yet to come. You really think KTUL should then have to rebrand yet again as, say, "channel 17" if it's forced to relocate once more?

The issue of proper antenna selection can be solved in other ways that are friendlier to consumers. In the UK, at least in the analog era, antennas were sold by "group." You knew - or at least the store selling you your antenna knew - what frequency group your community's transmitters operated on, and what polarity they used, and you bought the antenna that corresponded (generally either lower UHF, upper UHF or a broadband antenna that handled all of UHF).

In practice, especially after repacking, any market of significant size in the US is going to have stations on high-band V and across all of what remains of U (channels 14-36 under present proposals), and so any antenna sold to consumers really should be able to cover both. In markets where there's significant use of low-band V, broadcasters and retailers ought to be working more closely together to make sure the right antennas are in stores; that was clearly a failure on both sides at the start of the DTV era.

 

[Markxxx]

The FCC has had a long established unwritten rule that there has to be a fairness to everything.

This is why you don't have area codes exclusive to cell phones or to faxes (Except NYC). The FCC said, each new area code must be equal to the old ones.

If you were to allow some stations to keep their virtual and RF the same, it would put them at an advantage. The only way it could work is if all stations took a new channel number. Also at the time, the FCC said, it would guarantee non-interference if the TV station kept their digital channel. If they went back to their analog channel it would lose that guarantee.

I like the idea of real channels too but it is what it is, and the whole system is pretty much outdated anyway.

 

[KeithE4]

If you were to allow some stations to keep their virtual and RF the same, it would put them at an advantage.

Why? In Phoenix, 4 of our stations went back to their analog channels, either by choice (KAET/8 from 29, KSAZ-TV/10 from 31, KPNX/12 from 36) or by necessity (KNXV/15 from now-out-of-band 56). I don't think they gained anything by doing this; in fact, 8, 10, & 12 may be hurt overall since there have been reception issues on those channels (Fox runs a standard-def feed of KSAZ on KUTP/45, with PSIP 10.2).

The two former VHF-LO channels, KTVK/3 and KPHO-TV/5) stayed on their UHF channels (24 and 17, respectively) and have probably been helped by doing so. They are still selected by hitting 3.1 or 5.1 on the remote, although my Dynex TVs also allow entry of the RF channel directly. PSIP is your friend, not your enemy.

 

[w9wi]

The virtual channel rules aren't as much about "fairness" as they're about providing a useful experience to viewers.

As Scott alludes to... we've done this debate before...

Consider Chicago. To watch the ten Chicago-licensed full-power analog stations, you punched in on your remote:

WBBM-2 WYCC-20
WMAQ-5 WCIU-26
WLS-7 WFLD-32
WGN-9 WCPX-38
WTTW-11 WSNS-44

During the analog-to-digital transition, in digital, with PSIP remapping, to watch these ten stations you punched in on your remote:

WBBM-2 WYCC-20
WMAQ-5 WCIU-26
WLS-7 WFLD-32
WGN-9 WCPX-38
WTTW-11 WSNS-44

Now, in digital, with PSIP remapping, to watch these ten stations you punch in on your remote:

WBBM-2 WYCC-20
WMAQ-5 WCIU-26
WLS-7 WFLD-32
WGN-9 WCPX-38
WTTW-11 WSNS-44

In digital, if we didn't do remapping, you'd have to punch in:

WBBM-3 (during transition), 12 (post-transition if you have an outdoor antenna in the suburbs), or 26 (post-transition if you have an indoor antenna in the city)
WMAQ-29
WLS-52 (during transition), 7 (initially post-transition, may continue to work indefinitely), 44 (post-transition, permanent)
WGN-19
WTTW-47
WYCC-21
WCIU-27
WFLD-31
WCPX-43
WSNS-45

Now, which is more confusing???

(I can assure you, if I tossed in suburban-licensed channels like WPWR, WYIN, WJYS, WGBO, and WXFT it would be even worse...)

 

[crainbebo]

In Seattle, we could watch in analog
KOMO - 4
KING - 5
KIRO - 7
KCTS - 9
KSTW - 11
KCPQ - 13
KONG - 16
KTBW - 20
(at the time of the DT transition) KMYQ - 22
KBTC - 28
KWPX - 33
KHCV - 45 (now KFFV 44)
KUNS - 51

Look at it now!

KOMO 39 (ABC)
KING 48 NBC
KIRO 39 CBS
KCTS 9 DT (PBS)
KSTW 11 DT (CW)
KCPQ 13 DT (Fox)
KZJO 25 (MNTV)
KBTC 27 (PBS)
KONG 31 (IND)
KTBW 14 (TBN)
KUNS 50 (UNI)
KWPX 33 DT (ION)
KFFV 44 (Infomercials/Azteca on DT2)

There are NO low-VHF channels technically anymore in Seattle. More easier now to get DTV E-skip, whenever I get around to that! Many possibilities mostly from the upper Midwest (KNOP-2, KOTA-2, KIVV-5, KYUS-3, etc) but not like what analog DX was like...

-crainbebo

 

[KeithE4]

I'm sure for the average viewer, the whole channel mapping thing was the right way to go for TV stations that were identified for decades by their analog number. But it really creates some oddities in the digital age, where most poeple don't know the real channel number of the station they're watching.

It doesn't matter what the RF channel number is. That's irrelevant to everything except the FCC and the circuits in the TV itself. All that matters is that the viewer can find the channel he/she wants to watch.

WCBS-TV has been on Channel 2 - whatever the actual frequencies are or were - since 1941. Viewers expect to find it on Channel 2 today, and thanks to PSIP they do. As far as TVs in NYC are concerned, Channel 2 is 584-590 MHz. It's different in Chicago, LA, and everywhere else, but that doesn't matter - the TV takes care of that.

Channel numbers have always been arbitrary, going back to the first channel assignments in the late '30s. Channel 2 was first assigned to 50-56 MHz in 1937. It was moved to 66-72 MHz (post-war Channel 4) in 1940, when the Channel 2 of 1937 became Channel 1 to make room for the pre-war FM band. It was finally assigned to 54-60 MHz in 1946.

The frequency band 54-60 MHz only called "RF Channel 2" today to make it convenient for the FCC to assign a physical space for a station. Beyond that, it means nothing. It's 54-60 MHz to the TV, but it could be called Channel 2, 3, 9, 20, or anything else, depending on what PSIP number the FCC gave the station that was assigned to that frequency band in a given area.

 

[Bob E. Nelson]

Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX
KXTX 39 >> KLDT (Virtual 54)

I'll amplify on the Dallas/Ft. Worth situation since it's rather confusing due to having 18 full service facilities, all of which transmit from the antenna farm at Cedar Hill and 14 LD facilities, all but 4 of which are also in Cedar Hill. Thus overlaps are inevitable with so many stations and so little spectrum space available.

Here's the one that causes the most confusion, including on some tuners, since three stations have conflicts:

KTXA/21 >> KMPX (Virtual 29)
KMPX/29 >> KWDA (Virtual 30)
KWDA/30 >> KTXA (Virtual 21)

And there's also these (with a correction of the calls and virtual for KLDT, now KAZD):

KSFW/43 >> KDTN (Virtual 2)
KDTN/2 >> KSFW (Virtual 43)

KODF/26 >> KDFI (Virtual 27)

KXTX/39 >> KAZD (Virtual 55)

There are only two stations in this market using the same physical channel as the virtual:

WFAA/8
KUVN/23

...and I'll also add that we've got one really bad case of short spacing that, especially during tropo season, causes the loss of service in the market for KFWD (MundoFox) since they both are on physical channel 9, separated by a scant 92 miles from tower to tower:

KCEN/6 >> KFWD/52

 

[vchimpanzee]

This is not one market, but for some people it could be problematic.

WMYV Greensboro, NC was analog 48 and is virtual 48, but RF 33. WRAL Raleigh, NC is virtual 5 but RF 48. The two cities are close enough to each other that it's possible there are people between the cities trying to get one and ending up with the other.