Anonymous editorial on the FCC approval of HD Radio

[SUPERCASTER]

Burns said:

However the fact that the predictions are that by the end of 2007 there will be nearly 2,000 IBOC stations on the air.

At that rate the number of HD stations is likely to overtake the number of HD listeners. ;D

 

[R.F. Burns]

Burns said:

However the fact that the predictions are that by the end of 2007 there will be nearly 2,000 IBOC stations on the air.

At that rate the number of HD stations is likely to overtake the number of HD listeners. ;D

What a whitty Quip. Do you write for readers Digest as well?

 

[PocketRadio]

The IBOC FM signal was never engineered to serve anything other than "city grade contour." This is stated several times in their own PR pieces. Later, when full digital signals are on the air and analog shutdown, then coverage will be about equal with present analog. The was the original plan, no matter how they spin it now.

It is up to the marketplace, whether that be station owners and/or consumers, to determine if HD is going to fly - so far, mainly only HD Radio Alliance stations have gone HD, and consumers have turned a deaf-ear.

 

[R.F. Burns]

The IBOC FM signal was never engineered to serve anything other than "city grade contour." This is stated several times in their own PR pieces. Later, when full digital signals are on the air and analog shutdown, then coverage will be about equal with present analog. The was the original plan, no matter how they spin it now.

It is up to the marketplace, whether that be station owners and/or consumers, to determine if HD is going to fly - so far, mainly only HD Radio Alliance stations have gone HD, and consumers have turned a deaf-ear.

I used to hear the same thing when CD players came on the market in the early 80's. These kind of negative comments are nothing new.

 

[Mike Walker]

You've neglected to notice something in stating that "only Alliance members have gone HD". Those "alliance member" stations that have gone HD are the biggest, and most successful stations with the largest audiences. MOST listeners are already hearing stations that broadcast in HD, because these "alliance members" have long since gobbled up all the most attractive radio properties in America. It's kind of a red state/blue state situation. Yes there are more stations that haven't converted. But they're "red state" kind of stations...small outlets, in sparsely populated areas. There may be less "blue state" stations, but, as with the "blue states" on the elctoral maps...that's where most people/listeners are! And that's why these particular stations were converted first.

 

[clouseau]

so far, mainly only HD Radio Alliance stations have gone HD,

Excuse the heck out of the Non alliance stations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it only been guaranteed this is the system we'll use for about a week?

As the Cave Man says... "Sorry we couldn't get that to you sooner."

Clouseau

 

[rbrucecarter5]

To be honest, I wouldn't expect listeners from 60 miles away to try. In your town, I'd expect people to be listening to any one of the local frequencies.

Therein lies a huge problem. The Dallas / Ft. Worth Metroplex is 120 miles West to East, and about 80 miles North to South at its widest. I live about 60 miles from the local towers, and I am by no means on the outskirts. I am surrounded by subdivisions and suburban communities - affluent ones - prime audience for DFW area stations. Some of the listeners to the local stations are as much as 90 miles from the towers. There is no problem at all with the analog signal. But if 60 miles is too far for IBOC, at least half, possibly 2/3 of the DFW audience is not served by IBOC - the most affluent suburbs and listeners are skewing away from the towers in almost a straight line up towards Sherman.

It is the same in Houston. The towers are in Misouri City. Growth in Houston is up I-45 in the Woodlands and Conroe, and up 290 towards Austin.

It is the same in St. Louis, Denver, especially Los Angeles, in just about every metro area I can think of. The most affluent suburbs and audience are invariably far enough from the towers that IBOC will never reach them.

That makes for a LOT of returned, "defective" IBOC radios, and bad word of mouth about HD radio. You IBOC advocates better start being nice to us DX'ers, because WE are your ONLY hope of teaching people how to receive HD.

 

[EasyPeazy]

To be honest, I wouldn't expect listeners from 60 miles away to try. In your town, I'd expect people to be listening to any one of the local frequencies.

Therein lies a huge problem. The Dallas / Ft. Worth Metroplex is 120 miles West to East, and about 80 miles North to South at its widest. I live about 60 miles from the local towers, and I am by no means on the outskirts. I am surrounded by subdivisions and suburban communities - affluent ones - prime audience for DFW area stations. Some of the listeners to the local stations are as much as 90 miles from the towers. There is no problem at all with the analog signal. But if 60 miles is too far for IBOC, at least half, possibly 2/3 of the DFW audience is not served by IBOC - the most affluent suburbs and listeners are skewing away from the towers in almost a straight line up towards Sherman.

It is the same in Houston. The towers are in Misouri City. Growth in Houston is up I-45 in the Woodlands and Conroe, and up 290 towards Austin.

It is the same in St. Louis, Denver, especially Los Angeles, in just about every metro area I can think of. The most affluent suburbs and audience are invariably far enough from the towers that IBOC will never reach them.

That makes for a LOT of returned, "defective" IBOC radios, and bad word of mouth about HD radio. You IBOC advocates better start being nice to us DX'ers, because WE are your ONLY hope of teaching people how to receive HD.

There aren't any class C FMs on nearly 2,000 foot sticks in Shreveport either. In fact there aren't very many full Cs period - most of their stations are C1s, C2s or C3s. The few full Cs the town has aren't built to much more than C1 height.

The sticks in Dallas and Houston are built to better accomodate urban sprawl. Chuck might actually have better luck picking up the stations from Dallas than the stations from Shreveport.

 

[Mike Walker]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dallas is a lot flatter than much of the country. Covering that distance would be a much greater challenge around here, where we are surrounded by mountains. And yet 80-100 mile HD reception is no big deal.

In really flat areas, I don't see why 120 mile HD reception shouldn't be pretty common. Of course I can also see situations where 30-40 mile HD would be an achievement (or FM stereo for that matter)...communities in the mountains, surrounded by higher mountains, for instance. Plenty of those in NC/VA/TN

 

[R.F. Burns]

To be honest, I wouldn't expect listeners from 60 miles away to try. In your town, I'd expect people to be listening to any one of the local frequencies.

Therein lies a huge problem. The Dallas / Ft. Worth Metroplex is 120 miles West to East, and about 80 miles North to South at its widest. I live about 60 miles from the local towers, and I am by no means on the outskirts. I am surrounded by subdivisions and suburban communities - affluent ones - prime audience for DFW area stations. Some of the listeners to the local stations are as much as 90 miles from the towers. There is no problem at all with the analog signal. But if 60 miles is too far for IBOC, at least half, possibly 2/3 of the DFW audience is not served by IBOC - the most affluent suburbs and listeners are skewing away from the towers in almost a straight line up towards Sherman.

It is the same in Houston. The towers are in Misouri City. Growth in Houston is up I-45 in the Woodlands and Conroe, and up 290 towards Austin.

It is the same in St. Louis, Denver, especially Los Angeles, in just about every metro area I can think of. The most affluent suburbs and audience are invariably far enough from the towers that IBOC will never reach them.

That makes for a LOT of returned, "defective" IBOC radios, and bad word of mouth about HD radio. You IBOC advocates better start being nice to us DX'ers, because WE are your ONLY hope of teaching people how to receive HD.

Mileage isn't an issue (In the NYC area where I live, I'm over 60 mmiles rom an IBOC station and they are loud and clearer than the analog equivelent) It's all about how much RF makes it to your area. If you have solid analog reception I would say with the Sangean tuner and proper antenna HD should be no problem. As for antennas, seems that people have no problem having sat TV antennas on their roofs and coax run throughout their homes. Why would they have problems with HD radio or HDTV antennas?

 

[Chuck]

Why would they have problems with HD radio or HDTV antennas?

Because it is a whole new hobby. I’m sure that some folks will adopt the idea, but most people just want to turn on the switch and listen to the radio as they putter around the house, their garage or back yard. These days, they are used to everything being wireless. Having music tethered to a piece of RG-6 is asking a lot for most people.

Please note, the people who are on this board are NOT normal listeners....

 

[R.F. Burns]

Why would they have problems with HD radio or HDTV antennas?

Because it is a whole new hobby. I’m sure that some folks will adopt the idea, but most people just want to turn on the switch and listen to the radio as they putter around the house, their garage or back yard. These days, they are used to everything being wireless. Having music tethered to a piece of RG-6 is asking a lot for most people.

Please note, the people who are on this board are NOT normal listeners....

 

[R.F. Burns]

Why would they have problems with HD radio or HDTV antennas?

Because it is a whole new hobby. I’m sure that some folks will adopt the idea, but most people just want to turn on the switch and listen to the radio as they putter around the house, their garage or back yard. These days, they are used to everything being wireless. Having music tethered to a piece of RG-6 is asking a lot for most people.

Please note, the people who are on this board are NOT normal listeners....

So how do you explain the tethering of people using Sony play stations or conencting their Hi Def TV's to cable or a satellite dish or a TV antenna? What about the dock for you I-Pod connected to a computer which gets its internet from a wire connected to a computer? I know the people on this board aren't typical but that goes in both directions. The anti IBOC peole are so angry with this technology that to an extent it's unhealthy. I mean why be so bitter? I know, I know, it's a secret, at least that's what some say. This technology has only been officially accepted since last Thursday. Up until that date it was only experimental. I'd say whetehr we are normal or otherwise even with the short attention span we as a society have, 6 days or bust is a bit much to ask of any new technology.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Mileage isn't an issue --- It's all about how much RF makes it to your area. Why would they have problems with HD radio or HDTV antennas?

I am glad somebody besides me is saying it - you need a decent antenna. The thing that bothers me is the robustness of the signal - if it takes 2mV or more signal for the digital decode circuitry to kick in, you are talking three decades of voltage between acceptable mono quieting on an analog signal vs. HD decode. That is a heck of a lot of difference. A good antenna can provide a lot of gain, and if it can provide enough gain to get to the 2mV level, then you will get HD. But you are still talking about strong signals, even 60 to 100 miles out. Signals that would probably make it into almost any radio no matter how cheap. But the cheap radios would have equally cheap antennas and pretty crummy RF circuitry - I've heard a boom box with a whip do 100 mile FM - the tower was 1800 feet and it was 100 kW. You certainly couldn't tack on IBOC decode circuitry on that radio and get HD. With a good external antenna - maybe. If you have a clear shot at the station. But where besides Florida and Texas do you have that clear shot?

No - most metro areas are more hilly than that, and there are plenty of other things to block a clear shot at the towers. I'd be really surprised if HD went over 20 to 30 miles in most areas. Maybe in your location, you got clear line of sight to the NY towers 60 miles away. Add a Sangean that seems to be a decently designed tuner, a good outdoor yagi aimed at those towers, you get HD. But you are at a level of DX proficiency way more advanced than the boom box / FM tuner in MP3 player generation - and those devices at 60 miles won't get HD. They aren't designed for it, and their antennas are not good enough. Solve that problem, and you probably save HD from inevitable oblivion.

 

[Chuck]

[So how do you explain the tethering of people using Sony play stations or conencting their Hi Def TV's to cable or a satellite dish or a TV antenna? What about the dock for you I-Pod connected to a computer which gets its internet from a wire connected to a computer? I know the people on this board aren't typical but that goes in both directions. The anti IBOC peole are so angry with this technology that to an extent it's unhealthy. I mean why be so bitter?

I'm not bitter. You shouldn't take it that way. It's just an observation that people like portability in their electronics.

I can't say that I play video games, but I've noticed there seems to be a healthy amount of wireless controls for them. How about the Wii? Aren't people breaking their TV's when the tether comes off the cordless sending unit and they accidentally throw it through the TV screen?

Right now, I'm sitting in my living room on my laptop computer with a wireless connection. There are no wires here. I’m surrounded by a couple of wireless TV remotes as my wife surfs for something to watch. There is a cordless phone in the room and a cell phone in my pocket. A pocket size PDA means I don't have to go to my desk to find names addresses, or even surf the Internet.

Sure, you can dock you ipod, but the next time you get on an airplane, please notice how many people are wearing these things. They look pretty portable to me. How about the guys walking around with a blue LED hanging out of their ear? It's a wireless Bluetooth headset for their wireless phone. Seems redundant, doesn't it?

I haven't used a hard wired electric drill for a long time, but I sure use my cordless drill a lot. The same for my cordless circular saw, and a bunch of other cordless devices that are commonly found just about everywhere..

Sure, there are places where being tied down with a power cord and maybe an outside antenna is entirely appropriate, and maybe even quite desirable. The catch is not everyone is going to go to very much trouble just to accommodate a new radio. There are too many other diversions in most people’s lives. Most people just want to take the radio out of the box, plug it in and turn it on. They are unlikely to bother with purchasing an outdoor antenna, mounting it on their roof and fishing the cable into their bedroom. The materials alone could run $50-100 or more, depending on the installation and equipment used. Not everyone is a do-it-yourself candidate, especially when it comes to mounting antennas. I don't know what an installer would charge to put up an antenna, but I'm sure it would be well over $100. I know some people will do that, but I suspect they are in the minority.

 

[R.F. Burns]

[So how do you explain the tethering of people using Sony play stations or conencting their Hi Def TV's to cable or a satellite dish or a TV antenna? What about the dock for you I-Pod connected to a computer which gets its internet from a wire connected to a computer? I know the people on this board aren't typical but that goes in both directions. The anti IBOC peole are so angry with this technology that to an extent it's unhealthy. I mean why be so bitter?

I'm not bitter. You shouldn't take it that way. It's just an observation that people like portability in their electronics.

I can't say that I play video games, but I've noticed there seems to be a healthy amount of wireless controls for them. How about the Wii? Aren't people breaking their TV's when the tether comes off the cordless sending unit and they accidentally throw it through the TV screen?

Right now, I'm sitting in my living room on my laptop computer with a wireless connection. There are no wires here. I’m surrounded by a couple of wireless TV remotes as my wife surfs for something to watch. There is a cordless phone in the room and a cell phone in my pocket. A pocket size PDA means I don't have to go to my desk to find names addresses, or even surf the Internet.

Sure, you can dock you ipod, but the next time you get on an airplane, please notice how many people are wearing these things. They look pretty portable to me. How about the guys walking around with a blue LED hanging out of their ear? It's a wireless Bluetooth headset for their wireless phone. Seems redundant, doesn't it?

I haven't used a hard wired electric drill for a long time, but I sure use my cordless drill a lot. The same for my cordless circular saw, and a bunch of other cordless devices that are commonly found just about everywhere..

Sure, there are places where being tied down with a power cord and maybe an outside antenna is entirely appropriate, and maybe even quite desirable. The catch is not everyone is going to go to very much trouble just to accommodate a new radio. There are too many other diversions in most people’s lives. Most people just want to take the radio out of the box, plug it in and turn it on. They are unlikely to bother with purchasing an outdoor antenna, mounting it on their roof and fishing the cable into their bedroom. The materials alone could run $50-100 or more, depending on the installation and equipment used. Not everyone is a do-it-yourself candidate, especially when it comes to mounting antennas. I don't know what an installer would charge to put up an antenna, but I'm sure it would be well over $100. I know some people will do that, but I suspect they are in the minority.

That's an assumption that people don't have an antenna to connect with anyway. If you have a TV antenna on your roof, you can buy a splitter, and connect the radio to the existing antenna. People today have home entertainment systems and an HD radio tuner can be added to that system and provide music which otherwise they wouldn't have access to. I don't live in a completely portable world. My speakers (http://www.infinity-classics.de/inf...ries-1+b-2-10+A+B-1981-86/index-Reference.htm) alone weigh over 60 pounds a piece. They're great speakers but not exactly portable. Say you live in an apartment, most have a TV antenna jack somewhere in the apartment for the tenant. My computer, a desktop is the control computer in the wireless network I have in my house and it is hardly portable. I have both cordless and corded phones in my house. Mt televisions aren't portable, nor are the Directv boxes. Look at Hi Def TV's. How many portabld units are being sold and in my area they sell loads of them. HD is a brand new technology and we're still in the first generation. Portable chips have ben designed and radios are coming. This technology is going to be the new look of radio, like it or not.

 

[Chuck]

Maybe, if it is convenient. Usually they don't have a handy TV antenna jack sitting next to their bed side table. That is a usual spot in most homes for a radio. So is the kitchen. You and I are Hams, and our wives are used to us running wires all over the place. Most people do not share that enthusiasm. In fact, most people won't even uncoil the pigtail FM antenna on their existing radio. I can't tell you how many friends I've helped get their stereos working. Frequently the culprit of poor (or no) FM reception is the antenna was thrown away with the box. They have no antenna. You shouldn't overestimate what people will do. You will be disappointed.

People today have home entertainment systems and an HD radio tuner can be added to that system and provide music which otherwise they wouldn't have access to. I don't live in a completely portable world. My speakers (http://www.infinity-classics.de/inf...ries-1+b-2-10+A+B-1981-86/index-Reference.htm) alone weigh over 60 pounds a piece. They're great speakers but not exactly portable. Say you live in an apartment, most have a TV antenna jack somewhere in the apartment for the tenant. My computer, a desktop is the control computer in the wireless network I have in my house and it is hardly portable. I have both cordless and corded phones in my house. Mt televisions aren't portable, nor are the Directv boxes.

I believe you are living in the past. The current trend in home electronics is for cordless everything. They even have "cordless speakers." Are they any good? Not really, they are certainly no match for your Infinity's, but people seem to buy them. They also listen to 64 k mp3's on their ipods and think they sound wonderful.

As for apartment antenna systems, IF they work at all (that’s doubtful in my experience), they are frequently connected up to the cable TV system in the area. If you don’t subscribe to cable you usually have a piece of wire that is connected to nothing. At least in my area, most cable companies have dropped any FM radio coverage, or if they have it, they re-modulate it to a different frequency. No HD there.

Look at Hi Def TV's. How many portabl units are being sold and in my area they sell loads of them. HD is a brand new technology and we're still in the first generation. Portable chips have ben designed and radios are coming. This technology is going to be the new look of radio, like it or not.

It doesn't matter if I like it or not. It seems to me like you are the one who is hostile here. What does matter is whether the public accepts it or not. The jury is out on that one.

 

[R.F. Burns]

Maybe, if it is convenient. Usually they don't have a handy TV antenna jack sitting next to their bed side table. That is a usual spot in most homes for a radio. So is the kitchen. You and I are Hams, and our wives are used to us running wires all over the place. Most people do not share that enthusiasm. In fact, most people won't even uncoil the pigtail FM antenna on their existing radio. I can't tell you how many friends I've helped get their stereos working. Frequently the culprit of poor (or no) FM reception is the antenna was thrown away with the box. They have no antenna. You shouldn't overestimate what people will do. You will be disappointed.

People today have home entertainment systems and an HD radio tuner can be added to that system and provide music which otherwise they wouldn't have access to. I don't live in a completely portable world. My speakers (http://www.infinity-classics.de/inf...ries-1+b-2-10+A+B-1981-86/index-Reference.htm) alone weigh over 60 pounds a piece. They're great speakers but not exactly portable. Say you live in an apartment, most have a TV antenna jack somewhere in the apartment for the tenant. My computer, a desktop is the control computer in the wireless network I have in my house and it is hardly portable. I have both cordless and corded phones in my house. Mt televisions aren't portable, nor are the Directv boxes.

I believe you are living in the past. The current trend in home electronics is for cordless everything. They even have "cordless speakers." Are they any good? Not really, they are certainly no match for your Infinity's, but people seem to buy them. They also listen to 64 k mp3's on their ipods and think they sound wonderful.

As for apartment antenna systems, IF they work at all (that’s doubtful in my experience), they are frequently connected up to the cable TV system in the area. If you don’t subscribe to cable you usually have a piece of wire that is connected to nothing. At least in my area, most cable companies have dropped any FM radio coverage, or if they have it, they re-modulate it to a different frequency. No HD there.

Look at Hi Def TV's. How many portabl units are being sold and in my area they sell loads of them. HD is a brand new technology and we're still in the first generation. Portable chips have ben designed and radios are coming. This technology is going to be the new look of radio, like it or not.

It doesn't matter if I like it or not. It seems to me like you are the one who is hostile here. What does matter is whether the public accepts it or not. The jury is out on that one.

I'm not hostile at all and I also have the HDT-1 tuner. It's far and away the most sensitive and selective FM radio I've encountered, not matter what the insides look like. HD radio has only been out of the experimental stage since last thursday. Let's give it some time to see what happens, OK? By the way in NC we have many HD 1, 2 streams and even 2 HD 3 streams. When more stations tuen on their IBOC exciters I think you'll enjoy you Sangean even more. How does it do in analog? How does it compare with your other tunes? Mine is much more sensitive then my Sansui TU-717.

 

[PhilJSmith67]

I'll chime in on the sensitivity and selectivity of my Sangean HDR-1 on AM. It works so well, that if the FCC banned AM IBOC tomorrow, I wouldn't really care. The receiver seems to "narrow up" on weaker stations that are first-adjacent to strong ones, and it also "widens out" on strong stations that don't brickwall themselves at 5kHz. 560 WIND Chicago and 1320 WKAN Kankakee sound really rich on this receiver (neither are IBOC nor walled at 5k). I have no other receiver that can grab 880 WCBS NYC without getting splattered by WLS (19 miles away), yet on the HDR-1, I can hardly even tell WLS is right next door.

I never even bother with AM on my Sangean ATS-909 anymore -- I only use it for shortwave now, which is almost never. Oh yeah, early yesterday morning WLS flipped to their auxiliary transmitter for a little while, which exceeds 8kHz and apparently still runs C-QUAM. It sounded sweet, and the HDR-1 decoded the C-QUAM signal nicely.

As for the FM, I get RDS data on first-adjacent stations which I can hardly even hear on other receivers in the house, except for a circa-1982 analog-tune Panasonic RF-2600. No RDS or stereo demux on that radio, though! The Sangean also doesn't desensitize as much as the other radios because of a station on 102.3 FM only one mile from me.

 

[Chuck]

When more stations tuen on their IBOC exciters I think you'll enjoy you Sangean even more. How does it do in analog? How does it compare with your other tunes? Mine is much more sensitive then my Sansui TU-717.

The Sangean is a very good tuner. I think I mentioned that. It has excellent selectivity, and the sensitivity isn't bad either. I'd call it a bargain at $200, even if it never receives any HD signals. I haven't had time to find out how it performs in really bad RF environments (like at a transmitter site) but located not too far from our tower, it does not seem to have any big issues with getting the front end swamped. I don't think it is in the same class as Fanfare, but it also costs about 1/6 as much, so you have to take that into account.

I have to admit that I still like my old 1970's vintage Marantz tuner better. I don't think the Marantz is as sensitive or selective as the Sangean, but does sound "warmer" to my somewhat tired ears. Perhaps I like the sound of 35 year old leaky capacitors.