Any areas of the US that will LOSE OTA reception as a result of DTV?

[Tim from Springfield IL]

Along the lines of the "Are We Shooting Ourselves in the DTV Foot" thread, do any of you know of any parts of the country (or even parts of certain DMAs) that will completely LOSE OTA reception of DTV signals after the 2/17/2009 transition?

 

[Markxxx]

I think as a general rule no, but there will always be exceptions.

First of all not all the transmitters for NTSC (analog) are in the same location as the digtial transmitters. This will make a difference. Some people will gain OTA reception and some will lose. For instance in Chicago WJYS has it's NTSC transmitter in south suburban Tinley Park and you can't get the station in downtown Chicago, that's less than a half hour drive. WJYS's transmitter for digital is on Sears Tower so you can bet it'll be a full market station in digital.

The second thing is if you are on fringe reception areas. You may lose (or gain) a channel not really meant for your market.

When I lived in Arlington Heights (30 minutes NW of O'Hare) in the summer at night I could always get Channels 8 and 13 from Grand Rapids very clear, with a pair of rabbit ears. I wonder if I'd be able to get those station in digital, because they may be broadcasting on different channels and only map to their NTSC channel

Third not all digital stations are running at full power yet.

Lastly, I think there will be more interference than expected. Stations only got interference protection if they remained on their channel assigned to them for the digital signal. If they chose (or were forced to) return to their NTSC channel or choose another channel they have to make their signal conform to other TV stations that chose to stay on their assigned digital signal.

I find that Channel 11 (WTTW our PBS in Chicago) is nearly unwatchable ever since a Lafayette Indiana station signed on their digital signal on Channel 11

I think you're going to have to wait and see.

 

[Poledo]

I'm sure there are a lot of towns that will loose OTA TV reception after the switch to DTV. One market near me that I've been wondering about the future of is Fort Walton/Destin, Florida. They rely on stations about 60 miles away in Mobile, Alabama for OTA TV, so they are already out of luck if they try to use rabbit ears.
The reason I'm curious about the TV future of Fort Walton is because they have 3 full power stations wasting away with infomercials and a My Network TV affiliate. I'm wondering if any or all of those 4 channels will become "translators" for the Mobile, Alabama stations or if they might break off and form their own TV market after February.

Another strange market will be Birmingham, Alabama. The inner city folks may loose coverage from ABC due to the station covering the suburbs from 2 full power transmitters on the market fringe with only a LPTV station covering Birmingham.

Some markets are apparently already preparing for this. Albany, Georgia just added a CBS affiliate and a post on another board/thread suggest that Gainesville - Ocala, Florida is about to add an NBC affiliate so they won't have to rely on distant stations in Orlando or Jacksonville.

 

[KeithE4]

Along the lines of the "Are We Shooting Ourselves in the DTV Foot" thread, do any of you know of any parts of the country (or even parts of certain DMAs) that will completely LOSE OTA reception of DTV signals after the 2/17/2009 transition?

In the short term, probably, and mainly in the fringe areas of physically-large markets (such as Phoenix, Denver, or SLC) and/or areas with hilly/mountainous-terrain. In the long term, if there's a demand, then additional translators will appear to cover those areas.

 

[Morgan Wick]

The reason I'm curious about the TV future of Fort Walton is because they have 3 full power stations wasting away with infomercials and a My Network TV affiliate. I'm wondering if any or all of those 4 channels will become "translators" for the Mobile, Alabama stations or if they might break off and form their own TV market after February.

When's the last time the table of TV markets changed? This board has at times been littered with calls to make New Hampshire its own market or to merge St. Joseph into the Kansas City market or things of that nature. Trust me, even if those four channels do become separate affiliates as opposed to satellites, they will not become their own market.

 

[kenglish]

Much of the Salt Lake City DMA (which includes the entire state of Utah) is already running analog/digital simulcast on the translators. By the end of the summer, it should be pretty much set.

After 2-17-09, all analog translators will be turned off, unless there is no DTV alternate for that location. The State provided much of the financial assistance, and the individual Counties' translator engineers did the rest. And, they're doing a remarkable job!

 

[avtosalon]

WJYS's transmitter for digital is on Sears Tower so you can bet it'll be a full market station in digital.

No, the digital signal of WJYS is not a full market signal.

WJYS still can not be received in Lake County (Illinois), despite moving to Sears Tower:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT608549.html

I suspect the reason is that WJYS-DT was assigned digital Channel 36 by the FCC, which is the same channel as a full power analog station from Milwaukee, WMVT, a PBS affiliate.

Perhaps after February 2009 when analog 36 from Milwaukee signs off the air, WJYS-DT might reach the north suburbs of Chicago.

Seems odd that a low power digital station transmitting from Sears Tower, WWME-LD reaches Lake County, Illinois, but a full power digital station transmitting from the same building, WJYS-DT does not.

 

[dhett]

I suspect the reason is that WJYS-DT was assigned digital Channel 36 by the FCC, which is the same channel as a full power analog station from Milwaukee, WMVT, a PBS affiliate.

And you are correct. WJYS-DT must protect the existing coverage of WMVT.

Perhaps after February 2009 when analog 36 from Milwaukee signs off the air, WJYS-DT might reach the north suburbs of Chicago.

WMVT-DT will remain on channel 35 post-transition, and the only other post-transition channel 36 allocation in Wisconsin is in Superior, so there's a decent chance that WJYS-DT would go for full-market coverage. Now that the filing freeze is lifted for stations wishing to increase coverage, we should see an application from them shortly if that is their intent.

(Thanks, Mark, for your dtvallocations.com maps!)

 

[Poledo]

When's the last time the table of TV markets changed? This board has at times been littered with calls to make New Hampshire its own market or to merge St. Joseph into the Kansas City market or things of that nature. Trust me, even if those four channels do become separate affiliates as opposed to satellites, they will not become their own market.

I don't know, when was the last time a new TV market was created? What were the circumstances?

Fort Walton and Destin get Mobile and Panama City network affiliates on cable. From what I've seen, the Panama City stations cover more news in Fort Walton and Destin than the Mobile stations do, even though they are officially in the Mobile DMA. Could the DTV transition give one (or more) of the Panama City stations a "back door" to move Fort Walton from the Mobile market to the Panama City market by buying one of the underutilized stations to simulcast a Panama City affiliate, or would the networks and FCC block that?

In the end, I understand that cable/satellite penetration in Fort Walton is over 95% (I think I read 98%), so I guess it's just never been worth anyones money to create a local OTA TV station there. I've just never been able to understand why they put 4 full power TV stations in Fort Walton. None of these stations are capable of covering more than 20% of the Mobile/Pensacola/Fort Walton DMA due to air traffic restrictions on tower height and locations. There have been rumblings in the past about moving two of these stations to an area that would cover Fort Walton and Panama City, but not Mobile and Pensacola. Neither of those deals panned out. I don't know why.

 

[kenglish]

I think "DMA" is from, something like, "Direct Marketing Area".....something like, "all the towns and cities where people directly trade with each other". So, it's not just a TV/Radio thing, but a Department of Commerce (??) function.

A DMA would be a major marketing center (big city), and the surrounding communities within driving distance, or trucking distance (in the case of wholesalers, distributors, produce, etc).

 

[KML0224]

DMA stands for Designated Market Area.

 

[Markxxx]

DMA is not an FCC thing, it is a Nielsen thing and it exists for the purpose of measuring audience to sell commercial time.

The FCC basically has said, since Nielsen developed it, will just use their system.

But it's Nielsen not the FCC who decides which counties go into which market. I can only think of two counties that are divided up between markets but mostly it's an all or nothing type thing.

I think you may find other stations carrying more networks. Bowling Green Kentucky for years was a one network market, then a two networks. Now with sub channels it has Channel 13 (ABC, FOX, the CW) and Channel 40 (NBC, CBS). I think this will come and go as the demand comes.

As for WJYS, that's a great example of limited power and when digital comes into full swing I think we'll see a lot of directional transmitters.


The frustrating thing about markets is they were established a long time ago before great population shifts. For example the extreme example is San Jose with a population just under 1,000,000 back in 1950 had about 95,000.

Today San Jose would be big enough to be it's own market instead of part of San Francisco.

 

[Chad-Stevens]

Another strange market will be Birmingham, Alabama. The inner city folks may loose coverage from ABC due to the station covering the suburbs from 2 full power transmitters on the market fringe with only a LPTV station covering Birmingham.

As someone in the heart of that strange market, I've accepted that I'll lose ABC for good if the DTV switchover goes through. The DTV signal is just too unreliable to watch with any consistency. The bedroom TV will lose ABC and PBS as well, as its toward the interior of the building and has even less options for an antenna.

That's more along the lines of what I expect to happen in 2/09, not a whole lot of cases where everyone loses every signal, but LOTS of cases where viewers lose SOME signals on SOME TVs and wonder "What gives?"

 

[kenglish]

Another strange market will be Birmingham, Alabama. The inner city folks may loose coverage from ABC due to the station covering the suburbs from 2 full power transmitters on the market fringe with only a LPTV station covering Birmingham.

As someone in the heart of that strange market, I've accepted that I'll lose ABC for good if the DTV switchover goes through. The DTV signal is just too unreliable to watch with any consistency. The bedroom TV will lose ABC and PBS as well, as its toward the interior of the building and has even less options for an antenna.

That's more along the lines of what I expect to happen in 2/09, not a whole lot of cases where everyone loses every signal, but LOTS of cases where viewers lose SOME signals on SOME TVs and wonder "What gives?"

This is why broadcasters need to get busy and promote "Antenna Technology" to their viewers. Antennas are not some ancient voodoo, but are a part of each and every wireless device that exists. A small, outdoor UHF antenna is all many people will need, to get reliable DTV reception. A properly installed VHF+UHF combo antenna will provide reception for analog and digital TV and FM/HD radio, too. Many apartment and condo buildings could get by with a minimal-investment MATV system. Larger buildings could go with more sophisticated systems that even include satellite, cable TV, internet and security cameras.

But, for a home or apartment dweller, an antenna mounted near a window (or, on a balcony) could feed several sets via a splitter (or, amplified splitter) and some good coax cable.

 

[fortmill]

Yep, people need to get educated about antennas. I helped an elderly neighbor get ready for digital. She got a Digital Stream converter from RS and wanted to continue to use her terrible rabbit ears with UHF loop as her antenna. I knew that would not work but tried anyway. As expected, I couldn't get a single channel reliably. Then I hooked up my Silver Sensor, and presto, got all 10 local channels ( total of 23 channels with subchannels) clear as a bell. The lady is delighted and working to scrape up $25 for her own SS--she had already spent $20 for the converter. Why are they not selling the Silver Sensor everywhere? I believe the SS would be the solution for many reception problems.

 

[landtuna]

Why are they not selling the Silver Sensor everywhere?

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html

 

[Morgan Wick]

I think "DMA" is from, something like, "Direct Marketing Area".....something like, "all the towns and cities where people directly trade with each other". So, it's not just a TV/Radio thing, but a Department of Commerce (??) function.

A DMA would be a major marketing center (big city), and the surrounding communities within driving distance, or trucking distance (in the case of wholesalers, distributors, produce, etc).

"Designated Market Area". It is defined strictly by Nielsen for the sole purpose of TV ratings, although it is also used by the FCC for regulatory purposes. You may be thinking of the US Census Bureau's metropolitan areas.

 

[bk77]

I think "DMA" is from, something like, "Direct Marketing Area".....something like, "all the towns and cities where people directly trade with each other". So, it's not just a TV/Radio thing, but a Department of Commerce (??) function.

A DMA would be a major marketing center (big city), and the surrounding communities within driving distance, or trucking distance (in the case of wholesalers, distributors, produce, etc).

"Designated Market Area". It is defined strictly by Nielsen for the sole purpose of TV ratings, although it is also used by the FCC for regulatory purposes. You may be thinking of the US Census Bureau's metropolitan areas.

Also when it comes to Neilsen, DMA markets and such, a lot of cities aren't part of a "county". Baltimore, St. Louis, Carson City ( Nevada ) and every city in Virginia is considered "Independent", not part of any county. Plus Alaska and Louisiana don't use counties either.

 

[KML0224]

Technically, Louisiana does. They just call them parishes.

 

[Markxxx]

Well that's just a technicality. I mean the independent cities and parishes function like counties and are given representation like counties.