Anyone listening to the yacht rock weekend on klos

[michael hagerty]

Not everywhere, WLS had a 7.9 as late as 1979, second behind only full service WGN.

I would argue AM top 40 was still viable in the early 1970s.

Well, yeah. The early 1970s. But let's go five years-and then ten years- out from every one of those examples:

In the spring 1973 book

WABC was number 1 with an 8.6

Spring 1978, still number 1 with an 8.1.
Spring 1983, no longer in the format.

KHJ had a comeback after the failed album cut experience and was also number one with a 6.3

Spring 1978, tie for 6th with a 3.6.
Spring 1983, no longer in the format.

WLS had a 7.3 and WCFL had a 7.2 and were number two and three behind WGN

Spring 1978, WLS was 3rd with a 7.2 and WCFL was no longer in the format.
Spring 1983, WLS was 8th with a 4.1.

WFIL had a 9.5 and was number two

Spring 1978, fifth with a 5.8.
Spring 1983, no longer in the format.

KILT had a 10.6 and was number one

Spring 1978, fifth with a 6.3.
Spring 1983, no longer in the format.

KJR had a 12.8 and was number one

Spring 1978, fifth with a 6.8.
Spring 1983, no longer in the format.

WDGY had a 9.9 and KDWB had an 8.8, number two and three behind WCCO

Spring 1978, KDWB was fifth with a 5.9 and WDGY was no longer in the format.
Spring 1983, KDWB was no longer in the format.

KCBQ had a 10.5 and was number one.

Spring 1978, fifth with a 5.5
Spring 1983, no longer in the format.

WHBQ had a 13.6 behind only WDIA and the other AM top 40 WMPS had an 8.3

Spring 1978, WHBQ was 4th with a 9.1. WMPS was no longer in the format.
Spring 1983, WHBQ was no longer in the format.

WMAK had a 20.9 and was number one

Spring 1978, tied for eighth with a 4.3.
Spring 1983, no longer in the format.

WKTQ in their first book as a brand new AM top 40 in 1973 had a 15.3 behind only KDKA, beating KQV which had a 6.2

Spring 1978, WKTQ was seventh with a 4.7. KQV was no longer in the format.
Spring 1983, WKTQ was no longer in the format.

I don’t think the failure of WNBC was because of FM

No. The failure of WNBC was because WNBC never figured out what it wanted to be and could never make the case for New Yorkers leaving WABC. And you're not wrong about NBC not being great at radio. KNBR in San Francisco was an also-ran to KSFO until they won the Giants contract.

But in every other market beyond New York and Chicago that you cite, the stations had significant to catastrophic losses of audience in the five years between 1973 and 1978. And they didn't lose that share to other AMs. And given five more years, WABC and WLS were much worse off than they were in '78.

 

[briancraig]

My point was that AM top 40 was still huge in the early 1970s. I was making no assertion that it was the place to be in 1979. Yes, I understand AM top 40 was dead in all the top 50 markets by 1979 except WLS and KFRC

Circumstances changed very fast in the radio past. The FM top 40 boom was huge in 1984-1985 with some markets having 4 CHRs. By 1992, some markets had no real CHR.

But the history of pop music/top 40 radio is often based on myth. I have read people (the late Jim Ladd for instance) who think progressive rock FM made AM top 40 irrelevant by the late 1960s.

In 1970, WABC had a 11.9, KHJ, 7.5, WLS, 11.8, WFIL, 14.2, WRKO, 11.8, WQXI, 14.6, KLIF, 18.1, KILT, 14.3, KXOK, 24.5, WQAM, 11.7, KJR, 11.9, CKLW, 14.5, KGB, 13.1, WSAI, 21.3, WHB, 14.3, WOKY, 16.4, WTIX, 23.0, WMAK, 22.3 etc.

The only FM Rock station in the top 5 in any top 50 market is WOR-Fm with a 5.7 and they weren’t exactly following the Tom Donahue way of doing rock. The most successful FMs in 1970 are all beautiful music.

 

[briancraig]

But Pittman could not beat a bad-signal AM in Pittsburgh with a full signal FM in Top 40.

There are some who think that Pittman "fell upwards" during most of his career.

Lots of great radio programmers have flops. John Sebastian’s Position 93 KHJ is one of the worst sounding stations I’ve ever heard but he was obviously successful at other stations.

Don’t you think 1971 was a little early for a FM top 40 in Pittsburgh where in the F1970, KQV had an 11.6?

I’m no apologist for Pittman, but he certainly struck gold at WMAQ, a station that like WNBC had been a non performer since the network golden era of radio ended.

The Spring of 74 before Pittman took them country, WMAQ had a 2.3. 50KW at 670 and a 2.3. WGN had a 15.1, WBBM, 8.1. Even daytimers WAIT (4.6) and WJJD (3.5) had more listeners. WMAQ’s first country book in 1975 gave them a 5.4

Also have to give him credit for MTV and Nickelodeon’s success.

 

[briancraig]

And none of that really has anything to do with what I thought we were discussing in this thread, so ... whatever.

I’m trying to find a way to connect Disco Stereo WKYS in 1975 DC with KLOS having a Yacht Rock Weekend in 2025 L.A. but not having any luck.

Bobby Caldwell’s What You Won’t Do For Love could be my only hope to connect😄

 

[michael hagerty]

But the history of pop music/top 40 radio is often based on myth. I have read people (the late Jim Ladd for instance) who think progressive rock FM made AM top 40 irrelevant by the late 1960s.

I don't think Ladd was talking about ratings, though...certainly not 12+ ratings...he was talking about relevance, especially among key audiences.

In 1970, WABC had a 11.9, KHJ, 7.5, WLS, 11.8, WFIL, 14.2, WRKO, 11.8, WQXI, 14.6, KLIF, 18.1, KILT, 14.3, KXOK, 24.5, WQAM, 11.7, KJR, 11.9, CKLW, 14.5, KGB, 13.1, WSAI, 21.3, WHB, 14.3, WOKY, 16.4, WTIX, 23.0, WMAK, 22.3 etc.

The only FM Rock station in the top 5 in any top 50 market is WOR-Fm with a 5.7 and they weren’t exactly following the Tom Donahue way of doing rock.

Neither was KABC-FM, soon to be KLOS.

The most successful FMs in 1970 are all beautiful music.

Since this is the Los Angeles board, let's work with that.

Here's the April/May 1972 Arbitron, 12+ (FMs in BOLD)

1. KABC (Talk) 7.9
2. KFI (MOR). 5.8
3. KHJ (Top 40) 5.0
4. KNX (News) 4.2
5. KMPC (MOR) 4.1
5. KJOI-FM (Beautiful) 4.1
7. KRLA (Rock---this was Shadoe Stevens' attempt at FM rock on AM) 4.0
8. KFWB (News) 3.7
9. KGFJ (R&B) 3.2
9. KGBS AM-FM (Top 40) 3.2
11. KPOL (Beautiful) 3.3
12. KLAC (Country) 3.0
13. KWST-FM (Beautiful) 2.7
14. KLOS-FM (Rock) 2.6
15. XETRA (Beautiful) 2.4
16. KXTZ-FM (Beautiful) 2.3
17. KHJ-FM (Top 40) 2.1 [the last year of KHJ-FM was called "Solid Gold", but was a 70/30 current mix. Playlist here.]
17. KIIS (Adult Contemporary) 2.1
19. KFAC (Classical) 1.8
19. KOST-FM (Beautiful) 1.8
21. KEZY (Top 40) 1.7
21. KPOL-FM (Beautiful) 1.7
23. KALI (Spanish-language) 1.6
24. KDAY (Rock) 1.5
25. KMET-FM (Rock) 1.4
25. KKDJ-FM (Top 40) 1.4


Okay. So, now----what was happening in the demographics that KHJ cared about?

Teens (12-17):

1. KHJ 17.0
2. KGFJ 9.7
3. KEZY 9.0
4. KLOS-FM 8.6
5. KKDJ-FM 7.8
6. KRLA 7.2
7. KDAY 4.7
8. XPRS 4.1
9. KHJ-FM 3.5
10. KMET-FM 2.5

So, in teens---KHJ's most solid demo, there's a combined 22.4 share of teens going to FM stations just from the top ten stations.


KHJ's next most important demo...Women (18-24):

1. KHJ 10.9
2. KRLA 8.3
3. KHJ-FM 7.7
3. KGBS AM-FM 7.7
5. KIIS 7.5
6. KLOS-FM 5.9
7. KEZY 4.3
8. KMET-FM 4.0
9. KPPC-FM 3.9 (album rock that had only a 0.8 12+)
9. KGFJ 3.9

A combined 21.5 share of women 18-24 going to FM stations (breaking out the FM share of KGBS, it's 22.4---identical to the share of teens going to FM).


KHJ's next most important demo...Men (18-24):

1. KRLA 12.3
2. KLOS-FM 9.7
3. KHJ 6.6
4. KDAY 6.2
5. KABC 4.6 (Dodger baseball, most likely)
6. KHJ-FM 4.3
7. KGBS AM-FM 4.1
8. KMET-FM 3.5
9. KPPC-FM 3.4
10. KXTZ-FM 3.3

A combined 24.2 share of men 18-25 going to FM stations (breaking out the FM share of KGBS, it's 24.5)

And...Shadoe's experiment with album rock on KRLA, thought to be a bigger disaster than KHJ's, wasn't. It was respectable among teens, surprisingly strong with young women and a bona fide monster with young men.

A strong 12+ is like looking at a house. You can tell it's standing. The demos tell you if the termites are eating it from the inside.

 

[michael hagerty]

Lots of great radio programmers have flops. John Sebastian’s Position 93 KHJ is one of the worst sounding stations I’ve ever heard but he was obviously successful at other stations.

Let's put John's time at KHJ into context.

Here's the trend (12+):

July/August '76: 5.9
October/November '76: 5.3
January/February '77: 4.0
April/May '77: 4.3
July/August '77: 3.9
October/November '77: 3.5
January/February '78: 3.3

John's first book, April/May '78---a 3.6---arrested an 18-month slide that cost KHJ 45% of its share. First up book in a year. He also brought the station up from 3rd in teens to 2nd (behind KMET, which is why he took the approach he did) and increased its cume ranking from 5th to 4th.

Here's what KHJ refugee John Leader, who quit the station to be R&R's full-time Top 40 editor wrote after that first book:

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Business/Music/Archive-RandR-IDX/IDX/70s/78/RR-1978-06-23a-OCR-Page-0020.pdf#search=%22khj%22

The problem was that Sebastian couldn't sustain it, and there were some unforced errors---he muzzled his morning man (Charlie Tuna) and he called way too much attention to the changes ("Position 93" "All Music 93").

I always point out that Les Garland at KFRC did most of what John did---killed the jingles, went to music sweeps, used the album versions, but had a record-high 8.4 share in April/May '78. But Les didn't call attention to the changes and he let Dr. Don be Dr. Don (with fewer sound effects).

Still, Les couldn't sustain it, either. KFRC dropped 2.2 12+ the next book and lost half of its share over the next two years.

This was a bad time for AM music radio. KFRC had farther to fall.

I don't know what would have worked at KHJ. That initial 5.9-4.3 decline happened under Charlie Van Dyke, who was a great PD with a great airstaff (himself, Mark Elliott, Bobby Ocean, Machine Gun Kelly, John Leader, Shana, J.B. Stone), and RKO sent in their most successful programmer (Michael Spears from KFRC) to fix it---and it got worse.

A three way AM Top 40 battle (KHJ/KFI/KTNQ)---four if you count KEZY, which was Rick Carroll programming with a strong airstaff too---plus KIIS-FM and KIQQ, and meantime KMET is running away with the teens and young adults.

Everybody likes to say John "killed KHJ", but I've never met anyone who could tell me what would have worked.

Higher-energy Top 40? KTNQ was doing that, and John kept KHJ ahead of them.

A more traditional big personality approach? John Rook himself was programming KFI---and John kept KHJ ahead of them.

I've been honest, to John's face, about his tendency to drain the entertainment and production value out of stations and about not having a second act to grow a station (almost all of his stations have a great first, second or worst case third book). But seriously---what would any of us have done that would have worked?

 

[briancraig]

The only thing I can think of that may have changed KHJ’s fortune would have been a strong morning show. But L.A. radio was so competitive by the late 1970s, that it would have been difficult for a personality on AM to break through. And actual history shows that didn’t work.

Rick Dees ruled at sister AM WHBQ, but flopped when he was on KHJ. Obviously wasn’t because of Dees as he went on to dominate at KIIS.

Very interesting about KRLA’s album years being way more successful than as generally thought. You would think from Bill Earl’s history of KRLA book that Shadoe was a complete flop.

Sebastian’s KHJ still sounds like an abomination. But I wasn’t there so only hearing the L.A. radio of 1978 through airchecks. There are some stations I can’t get enough airchecks of, WLS in the early 70s, KHJ in the late 60s, KFRC in the 70s. Then there are other stations, that I don’t understand at all what made them special like WABC anytime or KMET’s massive success in 1978-79. I guess you had to be there.

 

[TheBigA]

I don’t understand at all what made them special like WABC anytime or KMET’s massive success in 1978-79. I guess you had to be there.

Bringing it back to the subject of this thread, the period of KMET's success coincides with the era of yacht rock, celebrated last week on KLOS. The musical diversity of FM rock radio, from hard rock to yacht rock, was part of the cultural change that led to the end of AM Top 40. This was captured in a big movie released in 1978, with the theme song by Steely Dan, called "FM." No static at all.

 

[michael hagerty]

The only thing I can think of that may have changed KHJ’s fortune would have been a strong morning show.

Which Sebastian had and threw away. And let's remember that the 5.9-4.3 decline happened with Charlie Van Dyke in mornings. That was a strong morning show.

But L.A. radio was so competitive by the late 1970s, that it would have been difficult for a personality on AM to break through. And actual history shows that didn’t work.

Mornings in L.A. weren't a place for new kids to get noticed. Lohman and Barkley had been in mornings at KFI since 1968, and were at KFWB and KLAC before that, so 1963. Dick Whittinghill had been in mornings at KMPC since 1949.

Charlie Tuna was one of only three guys to that point that had done mornings on KHJ since 1965. Robert W Morgan 1965-70, Tuna 1970-72, Morgan again 72-73, Charlie Van Dyke 73-77 and then Tuna again.

The stations that challenged KHJ tended to grab guys who'd been at KHJ---Tuna at KKDJ (and later KTNQ). Morgan at KIQQ. There was no morning breakout star in L.A. until Frazer Smith at KLOS and then, Rick Dees at KIIS.

Rick Dees ruled at sister AM WHBQ, but flopped when he was on KHJ.

Dees arrived at KHJ when it had a 2.3 and wasn't even in the top ten in cume in morning drive. I think it's more accurate to say KHJ sank and he was aboard. He didn't do any worse than the station itself and didn't accelerate their decline.

Obviously wasn’t because of Dees as he went on to dominate at KIIS.

He was on FM and had a General Manager (Wally Clark) who put his face on literally every RTD bus for two years. Not saying Dees wasn't great, and he absolutely helped KIIS, but KIIS helped him, too. I don't think he'd have done as well at KKHR.

Very interesting about KRLA’s album years being way more successful than as generally thought. You would think from Bill Earl’s history of KRLA book that Shadoe was a complete flop.

Bill was a superfan who wrote a thoroughly subjective, opinion-laden book that desperately needed an editor.

That said, I was in the dark about Shadoe's KRLA success until a couple of years ago, when I asked @Huff for the April/May '72 book, including demos, to help a documentary maker with some background research.

The July/August book was softer, but not bad...but it seemed like Shadoe and management got a little rattled. Shadoe quit as PD before fall, and they brought back Reb Foster, who took them back to a more traditional Top 40...and they were dead and gone six months after that.

Sebastian’s KHJ still sounds like an abomination. But I wasn’t there so only hearing the L.A. radio of 1978 through airchecks. There are some stations I can’t get enough airchecks of, WLS in the early 70s, KHJ in the late 60s, KFRC in the 70s. Then there are other stations, that I don’t understand at all what made them special like WABC anytime or KMET’s massive success in 1978-79. I guess you had to be there.

And everyone's mileage varies. The trend, in the late 70s, was very much away from Top 40 as it had existed from the 60s until then. Early 80s CHR was really a re-birth and re-invention.

 

[TheBigA]

The trend, in the late 70s, was very much away from Top 40 as it had existed from the 60s until then. Early 80s CHR was really a re-birth and re-invention.

My view on that was because Top 40 embraced disco. The negative reaction to disco, as demonstrated by Steve Dahl in Chicago, left listeners looking for the anti-disco. They found it on FM. No disco at all.

When CHR came back in the 80s, it happened on FM. Cuturally, the AM pocket transistor was replaced by the home stereo and the FM walkman. No AM at all. The FM Walkman was released in 1980.

 

[briancraig]

My view on that was because Top 40 embraced disco. The negative reaction to disco, as demonstrated by Steve Dahl in Chicago, left listeners looking for the anti-disco. They found it on FM. No disco at all.

When CHR came back in the 80s, it happened on FM. Cuturally, the pocket transistor was replaced by the home stereo and the FM walkman. No AM at all.

I agree 100% that disco and then the over the top negative reaction to disco practically killed top 40 in the late 1979-early 1982 period.

AM top 40 as Michael has shown with the numbers would have disappeared no matter what. But even the FM top 40s went too far in the Yacht Rock and AC direction during those years and you see how teens migrated to AOR. But when real top 40 CHR came back in 1983-84, teens came back.

 

[K.M. Richards]

Bringing it back to the subject of this thread, the period of KMET's success coincides with the era of yacht rock, celebrated last week on KLOS. The musical diversity of FM rock radio, from hard rock to yacht rock, was part of the cultural change that led to the end of AM Top 40. This was captured in a big movie released in 1978, with the theme song by Steely Dan, called "FM." No static at all.

There was also the true beginnings of AC, which was adopting much of the music we now call yacht rock, as it became a format choice on FM. 1978-79, IIRC, was when KTNQ's staff moved over to 97.1 and became KHTZ under new owner General Media, who wanted it to sound like their pioneering WMGK in Philadelphia (which was really more of a KNX-FM sound than an AC).

KLOS was hit-oriented, KMET played more album cuts, KNX-FM was a mix of soft hits and soft album tracks, and KHTZ was closer to what we would call yacht rock today.

But not an AM anywhere in the bunch.

 

[TheBigA]

But when real top 40 CHR came back in 1983-84, teens came back.

By then, the hardware conversion was complete. Car radios had been updated with FM-cassette decks. Every home had a stereo system with FM and home taping system. Plus the FM Walkman. Yacht rock was dead. Michael Jackson's Thriller was embraced by all formats.

In addition to the radio, MTV was in full swing, redefining music in very unique ways. It became its own format.

 

[michael hagerty]

I agree 100% that disco and then the over the top negative reaction to disco practically killed top 40 in the late 1979-early 1982 period.

AM top 40 as Michael has shown with the numbers would have disappeared no matter what. But even the FM top 40s went too far in the Yacht Rock and AC direction during those years and you see how teens migrated to AOR. But when real top 40 CHR came back in 1983-84, teens came back.

This was a two-fold problem. The advertising market for teens was weakening. It eventually evaporated completely. General Managers were demanding salable 18-49 and in many cases 25-54 numbers from their Top 40 PDs.

And---another "what would you do?" You need hit product to play. After disco and before MTV, what was selling?

This is the reason Gerry Peterson took KFRC heavily Urban in 1981. There was no hit mainstream product with which to maintain tempo and excitement. Those who followed the old rules choked on Air (Supply) and drowned in Juice (Newton).

 

[michael hagerty]

The musical diversity of FM rock radio, from hard rock to yacht rock, was part of the cultural change that led to the end of AM Top 40. This was captured in a big movie released in 1978, with the theme song by Steely Dan, called "FM." No static at all.

Minor correction about "FM".

It was not a big movie.

The number one movie that year, "Grease", did $83 million. The number 10 movie, "Revenge of the Pink Panther", did $25 million. The number 25 movie, "The Fury", did $10 million.

"FM" was #71 in the 1978 year-end box office, taking in $2.9 million. The production budget was $2 million, so when you fold in promotion costs, it lost money.

"FM" happened because Irving Azoff saw Robert Stigwood make a fortune with his (and other) artists with "Saturday Night Fever" ($71 million) and decided he wanted to do the same thing.

The movie (dreadful and unrealistic) bombed.

The soundtrack album did better (top five and platinum), but, apart from the Steely Dan title track, unavailable on any Steely Dan album until later in the year, it was really just a greatest hits album with only five other tracks that hadn't had significant chart runs (Randy Meisner, the two live Linda Ronstadt versions of singles she'd already released, Jimmy Buffett and Dan Fogelberg):

1. "FM (No Static at All)" - Steely Dan – 4:52
2. "Night Moves" - Bob Seger – 3:27
3. "Fly Like an Eagle" - Steve Miller Band – 3:04
4. "Cold as Ice" - Foreigner – 3:20
5. "Breakdown" - Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers – 2:44
6. "Bad Man" - Randy Meisner – 2:38

Side Two

1. "Life in the Fast Lane" - Eagles – 4:46
2. "Do It Again" - Steely Dan – 5:54
3. "Lido Shuffle" - Boz Scaggs – 3:42
4. "More Than a Feeling" - Boston – 4:45

Side Three

1. "Tumbling Dice" - Linda Ronstadt – 4:51 (Live Version)
2. "Poor, Poor Pitiful Me" - Linda Ronstadt – 4:15 (Live Version)
3. "Livingston Saturday Night" - Jimmy Buffett – 3:10
4. "There's a Place in the World for a Gambler" - Dan Fogelberg – 5:41
5. "Just the Way You Are" - Billy Joel – 4:49

Side Four

1. "It Keeps You Runnin'" - The Doobie Brothers – 4:13
2. "Your Smiling Face" - James Taylor – 2:43
3. "Life's Been Good" - Joe Walsh – 8:05
4. "We Will Rock You" - Queen – 2:04
5. "FM - Reprise" - Steely Dan – 2:54

Wanna get an idea of how bad the movie was?

Imagine an hour and 44 minutes of that----and you still are being optimistic.

 

[TheBigA]

Minor correction about "FM".

It was not a big movie.

It came out the same year that WKRP in Cincinnati debuted on TV. It too wasn't a huge success.

 

[K.M. Richards]

Mike and A:

I always believed the only audience for either consisted of radio people.

 

[TheBigA]

I always believed the only audience for either consisted of radio people.

Just saw where Fox News has also canceled MediaBuzz. Replaced it with more talk. Limited audience for specialty shows. Like yacht rock.

 

[michael hagerty]

Mike and A:

I always believed the only audience for either consisted of radio people.

Nobody wants to see how the sausage is made. "Good Morning World", "WKRP in Cincinnati", "Newsradio"---all bombed. The only "radio" TV series I can think of that was a hit was "Frasier", and most of the show took place outside the station.

Movies? "Good Morning Vietnam". And if anyone other than Robin Williams had played Adrian Cronauer, we wouldn't be talking about it.

Before anyone says "American Graffiti", yeah, Wolfman's voice was all over it, but no---it's not a radio movie.

 

[KilowattKat]

Not all bad:

Play Misty For Me
Talk Radio

And the borderline:

The Fog - Adrienne Barbeau as the radio DJ/Owner of that radio station in the lighthouse.