Are diehard listeners of this format TOO fickle?

[majaman78]

First of all, a big "Welcome back!" to darksoldier. We missed you around here, brother. I realize it seems very difficult to have any sort of civil or sane discussion these days on this board, but I can tell you it's great to have you back.

Second, it's also great to see another longtime "quality" poster (Bill Harmonic) also contribute again. PLEASE don't be a stranger, Bill. Your opinions are always refreshing and welcomed here.

Last of all, while Bill rightly noted that Mr. Eduardo has made his opinions very apparent on both threads Bill referenced, he was eerily silent on the one I started entitled "Wow, I guess there is potential for this format... Would you like to know why? Because the very format Mr. Eduardo has been doggishly stating for months on this board has NO future and grew "old" with its listeners seemingly OVERNIGHT has promise with the younger demo because Mr. Allen Kepler said so in a memo to his affiliates who have serve as the unfortunate brokers of his garbage product. Mr. Eduardo's "expert" opinions have been contradicted by the very man he has chosen to align himself with.

Any reasonable person can deduce from these exchanges that "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one." (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan) So David, please respect the needs of the many, and take Mr. Kepler and yourself on a long all-expenses paid trip into retirement with those P&G advertising dollars you have collected over the years and leave the future of Smooth Jazz radio to the regular posters on this board (passionate, forward-thinking programmers and educated listeners). We have things under control, and do not need to retain your "expert" consulting services. In fact, if I had the money, I'd pay you just to leave.

I just cannot trust or listen to anybody as meniacal and egotistical as someone who thinks so highly of themselves as to create a web address using their own name as a domain.

I will no longer address this individual on these boards and urge others to do the same, because it just brings all of us down into their own spiteful level.

Lets all just stick to the subject! (which I have been just as guilty of not doing the past few months and now apologize for) :-[

And I'm sure he'll just have to "get the last word in" like always, but quite frankly IDGAS (you figure it out) :

 

[Nock]

Eduardo positive? Clear Channel and Cumulus earnings stand a better chance of that.

Nock

 

[davideduardo]

Mr. Eduardo, how do you come that conclusion, that BA is trying to attract a younger demo? I'm being serious, I'm just curious. If anything, they seem to be doing the opposite. How does playing, the same old smooth jazz tunes, along with a couple of motown and R&B songs, would attract a younger demo?

I base the conclusion on the fact that BA researches against the younger (under 55) segment of the partisan group. Note that I don't say "smooth jazz listeners" but "partisan group" since it is a common music research technique to recruit based on liking a broad genre by giving a number of "pods" of artists that represent components of a genre and if a person likes several of them (such as three out of five pods) they are invited to a music or perceptual research project.

So why not do the same from SJ? Why keep playing the same thing over and over again, along with the oldies. I know they occasionally add new tracks, but not often.

It would be likely that the research shows this is the best route. Again, by "young" we likely mean 40-54 or even 35-54, not 18-34. In general, and the ratings show this, 35+ listens predominantly to stations that play no new music or to stations that add perhaps two or three new cuts a month, such as traditional AC stations. Even country is predominantly library based, with adds in the range of 5 songs a month, give or take.

I disagree that younger people don't general like instrumentals. Electronica and techno are very popular with young people,

For smooth jazz, under 55 is young. And getting below 45 to 40 is not going to happen. Talking about club music is way far afield.

although it may not be marketable to be "mainstream", why not incorporate some of this into SJ, just enough, so you don't draw too many folks away.

The disasters of adding chill to WQCD in NY or the total failure of Blue in Albuquerque-Santa Fe show how going to far afield is deadly. ANd keep in mind that Blue was an effort of one of the creators of the radio format, Frank Cody, to find the direction to take the format to revitalize it. That case may also have shown that Cody, without Owen leach to keep him grounded in listener reality, could not make the leap to a newer version of SJ. Somebody ought to bring Owen Leach into their deliberations about SJ.

I think AC's station "the .wav" does a perfect job of this. He mixes them enough so they blend in perfectly with some of the other SJ tracks. He also plays a lot of new SJ artist, to keep people coming back.

And for a web service, where he can accumulate thousands of users nationally, that is a great idea. But a station like KTWV in LA has to attract around 2 million listeners in LA alone to survive (see the multiple LA threads about "the end is near"), and going too unfamiliar, ultraniche, etc. just will not work.

I don't see how you can sit here and say that BA is trying to attract a younger demo, by playing the same old artist along R&B oldies, and be trying attract younger listeners. It seems like they are contradicting themselves, if you ask me.

Here, myself included, we are just talking among a small group... what a researcher would call n=10. And, like all these boards, a larger percentage of the participants want new music, new formats and unusual executions. The sample is small, and represents anyhing but the mainstream.

And, finally, thank you for a good post with incisive questions and a reasonable tone. While we are not going to fix terrestrial SJ programming here, a good discussion can be an ongoing thing when kept at this level.

 

[davideduardo]

BA has an opportunity (like everyone else) to lead once again but it will take a radical change toward winning back and serving the primary listeners of this format who left their stations in huge numbers or who have gotten older and don't count in the troubled world of terrestial radio today.

SJ has not really lost the primary listeners... they have moved monolithically iinto non-salable demos. The younger edge of the format in 1987 was around 35. Today, those 35 year olds are 57, and out of the salable demos. The 50-year-old listeners are, in all liklihood, now significantly reduced by death.

As mentioned elsewhere, stations like WQCD, Blue, Miami's SJ station, etc. tried moving different directions including chill, eclectic and more towards AC, and none exist today. A lot of effort was made to bring in younger listeners, but none worked. This sounds like what happened to Beautiful Music; no matter how many instrumental cuts of Rod Stewart and REO Speedwagon hits they recorded in England with Norrie Paramour, the truly brilliant programmers of the format could not make it attractive to a new generation, and it totally died.

Beautiful Music (which unlike Smooth Jazz which can be abbreviated by its initials SJ) did not have the alternative of the web. SJ does. I fear, though that the web streams will ultimately be unsuccessful save as a personal work of pride and satisfaction, as they all seem to be based on one person's gut feel and taste and not on the needs of any significant user/listener group.

If you defer to BA, I understand. See, I come from the background that all ideas are welcomed. Some may be great while others may not make the cut, but I want everyone to have their say because you never know what you might come out of that give and take. I've always believed that was the purpose of this board. I would love to see what you think the direction of smooth jazz could be and if all you can do is criticize and lecture on how it's been done in the past, then I guess you work is done here. Thank you very much for your contributions and I'm looking forward to what you can add.

BA is the only real world entity trying to keep the format alive, and that is why I defer to them. When WNUA changed format, Allen Kepler got the format back on, although on a smaller signal... he achieved something. I see no other even paritally successful effort on behalf of the format. Jones got some smaller market stations, but truly played in the majors and the industry consensus was that the format variation they had was a bit to unfamiliar... and they could not keep it alive. At least BA has keep the format going, and what may result is that when the economy strengthens, lower margin formats may again be profitable and there may be new conversions. In other words, BA is the best and likely only hope for the format to survive on terrestrial radio and its related distribution channels.

 

[davideduardo]

Eduardo positive? Clear Channel and Cumulus earnings stand a better chance of that.

Nock

On an EBITDA basis, both of those companies make huge amounts of money off the operation of their stations and assets. The killer is debt, not the station operations themselves.

 

[davideduardo]

I just cannot trust or listen to anybody as meniacal and egotistical as someone who thinks so highly of themselves as to create a web address using their own name as a domain.

I think if you look around, you will find those who offer consulting or related services in all fields and who do not use a corporate name for that endeavor will have websites that use their name to promote their activities. Mcvaymedia.com or Hollandcookemedia.com are examples.

In my case, if a broadcaster from Montevideo or Asunción were to ask who was the advisor to Mega in Buenos Aires, they would be given my name, not that of a company. And my name is what I can be found under on the web. Simple, effective, and it has provided me with a nifty source of income for well over a decade.

 

[Nock]

"The disasters of adding chill to WQCD in NY or the total failure of Blue in Albuquerque-Santa Fe show how going to far afield is deadly. ANd keep in mind that Blue was an effort of one of the creators of the radio format, Frank Cody, to find the direction to take the format to revitalize it. That case may also have shown that Cody, without Owen leach to keep him grounded in listener reality, could not make the leap to a newer version of SJ. Somebody ought to bring Owen Leach into their deliberations about SJ."

FYI, Blu is still on the air. The audience responded and it is still alive and kicking. (You know, one of those independent stations, low overhead, low arbitrons yet still making the dough) In fact after speaking with them via email, they are still getting hammered with requests to bring back the stream. Also QCD was a miserable attempt at integrating chill into the format almost dropping the c jazz element of the format. As someone else mentioned, The .wav is doing an excellent job at how it could be successful. Jones was also on top of it.

Nock

 

[majaman78]

Also QCD was a miserable attempt at integrating chill into the format almost dropping the c jazz element of the format. As someone else mentioned, The .wav is doing an excellent job at how it could be successful. Jones was also on top of it.

Nock

The problem with WQCD is they still tried to hang onto the miserable BA playlist by integrating a chill tune about every 5th spin.

I was actually listening to WQCD one afternoon driving thru NY and heard a great new cut "Daylight" by Adani & Wolf immediately folllowed by Diana Krall's dreadful "Peel Me A Grape". And that was followed up by the Chi-Lites "Have You Seen Her"!! ???

Dumb. 'QCD should have gone all chill 24/7. Now they're just another sucky Alt Rock outlet with even suckier ratings.

 

[davideduardo]

FYI, Blu is still on the air. The audience responded and it is still alive and kicking. (You know, one of those independent stations, low overhead, low arbitrons yet still making the dough)“

Per the industry's best and best respected source, Blu billed $75 k last year, meaning they must have lost huge amounts of money. They can barely pay the utilities and rent with $6 k a month.

In fact after speaking with them via email, they are still getting hammered with requests to bring back the stream.

Which, of course, they can not afford.

Also QCD was a miserable attempt at integrating chill into the format almost dropping the c jazz element of the format.

As I mentioned, some good people have made efforts to "fix" the demographic issue. It has not worked, which is my point.

As someone else mentioned, The .wav is doing an excellent job at how it could be successful.

How many streams do they average? KTWV in LA is in doeubt, with a weekly reach of just under 2 million persons and an average audience of 30 to 35 thousand persons at any given time.

Jones was also on top of it.

Yet that, too, failed.

 

[davideduardo]

The problem with WQCD is they still tried to hang onto the miserable BA playlist by integrating a chill tune about every 5th spin.

Let's start with the facts. WQCD was not a BA client.

Their playlist was their own.

 

[majaman78]

The problem with WQCD is they still tried to hang onto the miserable BA playlist by integrating a chill tune about every 5th spin.

Let's start with the facts. WQCD was not a BA client.

Their playlist was their own.

Gleason again "bends" the truth like always. Sorry to have to respond to this egomaniac, but fact is fact...

By then, Kepler had earned a national reputation for his knowledge of Smooth Jazz. In 1992, Kepler founded BA's now legendary smooth jazz consulting arm, the Smooth Jazz Network™, and began consulting successful radio stations including WQCD New York, KTWV Los Angeles, KYOT in Phoenix, and WNUA. Kepler also served as director of the company's international programming for Tokyo's JOAV-FM (J-Wave). With BA, Kepler has personally consulted over 60 smooth jazz stations.

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cach...+wqcd+smooth+jazz+ba&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[davideduardo]

Gleason again "bends" the truth like always. Sorry to have to respond to this egomaniac, but fact is fact...

When Emmis bought the station, they took on local programming... that was in 1997. When the chill experiment was made, the station had not been a BA client for years... thus my statement that WQCD, in the context of the chill issue, was NOT a BA station.

 

[AC Tones]

Quote
As someone else mentioned, The .wav is doing an excellent job at how it could be successful.

How many streams do they average? KTWV in LA is in doeubt, with a weekly reach of just under 2 million persons and an average audience of 30 to 35 thousand persons at any given time.

It's NEVER been about the numbers or the dollars for me, David. And it NEVER will be. Not sure what I have to do to get you to understand that. All I know is I have guys who listen to me 10-14 hours a day EVERY day, and they enjoy the programming immensely. And I am proud to say I have a personal relationship with almost all of them because I encourage and value their input and ideas because like me they realize this format is a "lifestyle." Can KTWV or BA make that claim? I think not.

Jones failed??? I wholeheartedly disagree, and the numbers that you rely so heavily on will back me up. You often try to make apples to oranges comparisons that lead to contradictions. Jones was acquired by Dial Global who decided to discontinue broadcasting the format which opened the door for BA, because they really know what they are doing over there. :-X If anything, Jones affiliates, in relative terms, were doing MUCH better than the KTWVs and WNUAs of the world because their overhead was much lower and their programming was FAR better. Like I have said time and time again on the board, Jones had realistic expectations for this format and did not try to make it something that it never was or never will be. And therein lies our beef with BA and their approach. Why this is such a difficult concept for an 'educated' person to understand is unconscienable to me. Please Steve, Laurie, Cheri, Keith...I know you guys lurk on this board...now is the time for your voices to be heard. PLEASE validate what I and your other dedicated listeners for well over a decade believe is the right approach for the format---Jones had the blueprint, the vision, the realistic expectations, and sharp programming which translated into steady listenership and VIABILITY.

 

[davideduardo]

It's NEVER been about the numbers or the dollars for me, David. And it NEVER will be.

It's a hobby, then. That makes a world of difference.

Can KTWV or BA make that claim? I think not.

They certainly can. They talk to their listeners, albeit in a more organized manner, and implement what the listeners indicate they want to hear. Same thing, just a lot more expensive and precise.

Jones failed???

Yep, the format did not make money, and was not showing any growth that would indicate it might... so the new owners killed it.

If anything, Jones affiliates, in relative terms, were doing MUCH better than the KTWVs and WNUAs of the world because their overhead was much lower and their programming was FAR better.

The ratings, indexed against viable station average share in each market, were not better. And the expenses of all smaller market stations are lower... they have to be. An LA station can bill $50 million a year, while all the stations in Tucson, market # 50 in revenue, don't bill that together.

Jones had the blueprint, the vision, the realistic expectations, and sharp programming which translated into steady listenership and VIABILITY.

Were the format profitable and salable (the revenue comes from inventory, not fees from the station for the most part) it would not have been dropped.

 

[AC Tones]

You're right, David. You're always right. I have come across plenty of guys in my life that have had an answer for everything, and they always turned out to be nothing more than legends in their own mind.

My stream may well be a hobby, but I can tell you, sir, UNEQUIVOCABLY that it is professionally-produced and delivered in crisp 128kbps sound, with a playlist of over 4000 cuts and "0" Geico commercials. My listeners deserve nothing less.

 

[Nock]

So which is it David, Blu is gone or still around? Simple question, not asking what they billed last year just are they simply pumping a signal out in Sante Fe. Again a yes or no answer is all I am asking for. I know that will be hard for you but please yes or no?

Nock

 

[cklw800]

Hi guys! Just sitting back watching the bullets fly. Just wanna say hi. I certainly ain't gonna bring in my 2 cents, because I know better. You guys fell for it. A certain someone is eating this up. Look at the posts. Amazing! If another board gets his attention like this one and he goes away for a bit, maybe I'll slide some of my knowledge of the subject matter in. But there's NO opinion better than the one of the all mighty E. No one here knows as much as he. I'll keep my dumb a** quiet, but just wanted to say hello. AC, Nock, Harmonic, 'Cat...you're all doing a great job! Have a great weekend!

 

[davideduardo]

So which is it David, Blu is gone or still around? Simple question, not asking what they billed last year just are they simply pumping a signal out in Sante Fe. Again a yes or no answer is all I am asking for. I know that will be hard for you but please yes or no?

I did not say they were gone, I said they failed.

My quote "The disasters of adding chill to WQCD in NY or the total failure of Blue in Albuquerque-Santa Fe show how going to far afield is deadly."

They are on the air, like many "failed" stations keeping the license alive in case they can sell it later. Since they paid about $450 k for it, and it might be worth $125 k today, that is a tough decision to make.

 

[davideduardo]

You're right, David. You're always right. I have come across plenty of guys in my life that have had an answer for everything, and they always turned out to be nothing more than legends in their own mind.

It would appear that asking if your endeavor was a hobby or a career, you became enraged. Why?

My stream may well be a hobby, but I can tell you, sir, UNEQUIVOCABLY that it is professionally-produced and delivered in crisp 128kbps sound, with a playlist of over 4000 cuts and "0" Geico commercials. My listeners deserve nothing less.

Again, what is your average stream count? 20? 30? 50? 100?

This sounds no different than someone who dubs his mix tapes for his friends.

 

[Nock]

LMAO!!!! It was a yes or no question and you could not keep it to that!!!!!

"I did not say they were gone, I said they failed.

My quote "The disasters of adding chill to WQCD in NY or the total failure of Blue in Albuquerque-Santa Fe show how going to far afield is deadly."

They are on the air, like many "failed" stations keeping the license alive in case they can sell it later. Since they paid about $450 k for it, and it might be worth $125 k today, that is a tough decision to make."