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Are there HD-2 and -3 fees for pubcasters? If so, will they hasten the demise o

When this link (http://www.ibiquity.com/i/pdfs/Licensing_ Fact_ Sheet_2008A.pdf) to Ibiquity’s “HD Radio™ Broadcaster Licensing Fact Sheet” made the rounds of our email group, one member raised some questions in a reply email:

So if I read it right, stations pay a one-time fee for the main channel and $1000 annual fee for hd2, hd3, and data channels plus 3% of any revenue derived from those channels. Is that right? Did I miss something?

So, it looks like Ibiquity planned on paying off investors with that 3% revenue fee plus fees from receivers sales Are there any stations making revenue with HD channels? And we know that receivers aren't selling.

Looks like annual licensing fees probably aren't shutting off HD in DC. Must be something else.

Below is a slightly edited version of the reply email I sent to our circle (with blind copies to some of Ibiquity's other nemeses):

This would explain why HD-2’s and -3’s are being dropped by commercial stations. But what public radio? What kind of deal do pubcasters get? Is there an annual renewal fee for their secondary services?

If so, how would Ibiquity assess that fee? Based on corporate underwriting for the subchannels? Or maybe on listener contributions earmarked for those “services,” if indeed there are any?

As for the proposed 10 dB increase for the FM digital side channels, that folly will hurt pubcasters in the reserved portion of the FM band, where the stations are already packed like sardines, far more than it will hurt commercial stations — though it’ll be bad enough in the Northeast, in parts of the Upper Midwest, and in California, where the rest of the band is pretty densely occupied, too.

That is, the situation would be bad enough — if enough stations did it. But that’s unlikely in the present economic climate. With contributions down, the pubcasters don’t have the money for whole new transmitter facilities; and with sales down, neither do most commercial outfits.

Of course, CBS (with Glynn Walden — co-developer of “HD” and co-founder of Ibiquity forerunner USA Digital Radio — as senior VP for engineering!) will plunge ahead, as will Clear Channel. So, too, I think, will Greater Media.

(The latter is not publicly traded, and it’s very closely held, so financial data are unavailable. But when they sold their cable systems in the Boston and Philadelphia media markets nearly ten years ago, they got $281 million from Comcast for 79,000 subscribers in Philly, and an undisclosed sum from privately-held Charter Communications for 173,000 subscribers in the Boston area. I estimate they got close to $900 million altogether, and I think they’re coasting on that! But Peter Smyth and company are no smarter than their counterparts at the publicly-traded firms, so I expect them to jump in on the “HD” power increase, too.)

Thus there would be relatively few stations doing it. But we don’t need the kind of complete bedlam we’ve seen on the AM band to bring this thing down. Just a few high profile cases, where a few major stations see a loss of revenue from the interference, will be enough to discredit this asinine system in the eyes of all but its most obstinate proponents; and as a result, you’ll see more and more commercial FM’s pulling the plug on it.

As for pubcasters, I haven’t seen “HD” receivers featured in the “NPR Shop” link on NPR’s home page for some months now; when there is a receiver, it’s always an internet radio! That tells me that NPR’s commitment to "HD" is faltering. But pubcasters are the only ones who have found any constructive use for multicasting.

So what would they do with the programming now on their HD2’s and -3’s? There’s always FMeXtra!
 
"Hasten the demise". That's funny. You actually believe HD is on it's way out. The evidence is quite to the contrary! More stations, MANY more products, more programming options, etc. But what should we expect from someone who simply "creates" facts?

Those HD radios that haven't been at NPR's shop "in some time". Perhaps you should actually LOOK. I shop there frequently. The radios have never left. In fact there are more of them. But don't take my word for this (or anything else!) As they say on the X Files "The Truth is out there".

Here's that link that doesn't exist to the radios that are going away http://shop.npr.org/catalog/Radios-28-1.html?mode=families
 
Keep poking on the Ibiquity site and it's not at all hard to find the information you're after - noncomm stations do not pay any fees for multicasting, so long as the multicast content is also noncommercial. If the noncomm station is doing anything commercial with its HD data stream - leasing out space for datacasting, for instance - they do pay a percentage of their revenues from that operation.
 
More thoughts on FMeXtra for pubcasters:

On the thread titled "They’re turning off HD in Washington, DC," Bob Savage wrote the following in Reply No.6:

[H]ere's the HD multicasting conundrum. Call it #434 on a list of things I don't understand about HD Radio.

Premise: we "need" digital audio broadcasting to improve audio quality over what was previously available via nasty old analog FM.

But: when multicasting kicks in, utilizing both HD2 and HD3 subchannels, the audio is degraded due to sampling reduction to 32 kbps stereo. When we burn client CDs here at the station the minimum mp3 sample we consider acceptable for MONO is 128 kbps. And most observers on this board and elsewhere agree: even given the most exotic compression algorithms available, there is a definite degradation of main-channel audio when all 3 FM-HD streams are in use. Essentially the main-channel audio is reduced to the quality of the HD2 sub.

So doesn't the much-ballyhooed "multicasting advantage" of FM-HD negate the main purpose of the digital broadcast in the first place? Sure - we can have multicasting. But it makes the MAIN channel - the one that generates 100 PERCENT of the revenue - sound lousy, even compared with a well-processed analog stereo signal.

Isn't this compromise another unacceptable one posed by HD?

Exactly! Of course, the same is true of FMeXtra. The AAC+ 2.0 codec used on FMeXtra is better than Ibiquity’s proprietary codec at any given bit-rate; still, having more channels means that each slice of that finite digital pie is smaller — and consequently lower in audio quality.

But with FMeXtra, there’s no contractual requirement to duplicate the analog signal in digital, as there is with “HD,” so stations have much more flexibility.

Consider the situation of a station that dropped classical music (or perhaps jazz) to do nothing but NPR news, talk and public affairs programming (with some local stuff thrown in), but decided to placate the disenfranchised music audience with music on its HD-2. Why should the music be forced onto a low-quality HD-2 just to allow the HD-1 to duplicate mostly spoken word programming?

Here’s an even more important consideration: an FMeXtra stream is usable almost anywhere the same station’s analog stereo difference signal is. And when a station switches to mono analog and moves its FMeXtra subcarrier down in frequency, the stereo FMeXtra signal can be received even farther than the analog stereo was (though not as far as analog mono).

Talk about more bang for the buck!

The only problem is that FMeXtra receivers are still around $200, and very hard to find. But if public radio would start using FMeXtra — and if it were promoted on NPR — we’d have the market potential to interest more manufacturers, and prices would come down.
 
Re: Are there HD-2 and -3 fees for pubcasters? If so, will they hasten the demi

I count a whopping total of SEVEN HD Radio products out of eighty listed on the NPR site. That includes the Visteon Jump and its various accessories for car and home use. And half of the products cost $200 or more.

With all due respect, this is not a realistic (apologies to Radio Shack) or competitive product listing. Few people will pay $200 or more for an HD Radio, even if it's "component grade." Neither will they install rotatable yagis to receive HD stations.
 
Actually the HDC codec used on HD is a derivative of AAC+, and is nearly identical in performance at comparable bitrates.
 
Savage, if those were the only available HD radios, then you'd have a point. But there are many dozens of products available now, in all price rages. That "they're only available for 200 dollars' b.s. just doesn't wash, this being '09, rather than '06!

NPR doesn't have some of the latest models, but places like Best Buy, Radio Shack (stores, not their web site yet), Target, J&R Music World, B&H Photo/Video/Audio, Crutchfield, Universal Radio, and many others have a plethora of models. HD has reached the stage where for many products it's just "in there"...home theater receivers, table radios, shelf systems, aftermarket car stereos, and other devices. And there's a "new sherriff in town". Remember, when Democrats control things, they're prone to passing a few regulations to speed things along...like the adoption of digital technology to replace analog. With Dems controlling both branches of Congress and the White House, things like REQUIRING satellite radios to also receive HD (as well as cell phones to receive FM) becoem MUCH more likely. Now THAT's "change we can believe in" ;)
 
In Reply no. 1, Mike Walker wrote:
"Hasten the demise". That's funny. You actually believe HD is on it's way out. The evidence is quite to the contrary! More stations, MANY more products, more programming options, etc. But what should we expect from someone who simply "creates" facts?

Those HD radios that haven't been at NPR's shop "in some time". Perhaps you should actually LOOK. I shop there frequently. The radios have never left. In fact there are more of them. But don't take my word for this (or anything else!) As they say on the X Files "The Truth is out there".

Here's that link that doesn't exist to the radios that are going away http://shop.npr.org/catalog/Radios-28-1.html?mode=families

No, Mike, I don’t “simply ‘create’ ” facts. Here’s what I said :
As for pubcasters, I haven’t seen “HD” receivers featured in the “NPR Shop” link on NPR’s home page for some months now; when there is a receiver, it’s always an internet radio! That tells me that NPR’s commitment to "HD" is faltering.

Note that I said they weren’t in the link to the NPR shop on the NPR home page. I never said that they weren’t in the NPR Shop!

Of course they’re still in the NPR Shop! Who knows how long it will take NPR to unload those turkeys?

And as for the demise of “HD” — as well as for its obvious engineering shortcomings — those of us who are eagerly anticipating that demise don’t have to “create” facts because, as you so aptly noted, “The Truth is out there.”
 
Yep. The "truth is out there". Just as it was three freakin' years ago when we were told that HD was 'on it's way out'. Only in the interim the number of stations has expanded from hundreds to thousands, the number of multicast channels has expanded from a handful to hundreds, and the number of radios has expanded from a few very expensive ones made by small, specialist manufacturers, to dozens in all price ranges made by the biggest names in consumer electronics, and marketed by the biggest names in retail.

But other than that, you're right. HD hasn't got a prayer ;)
 
Re: Are there HD-2 and -3 fees for pubcasters? If so, will they hasten the demi

Excuse me, Mike. You referenced the HD Radio offerings on the NPR site. That's what my response was about.

I never said - or suggested - those were "the only HD products available" ANYWHERE. C'mon. It's NOT "B.S." It is a simple count of the HD Radio stuff available on the NPR website.
 
Even so Savage, did you point out that HD is only one (of several) CATEGORIES of radios at the NPR shop, or that seen in this light, the number of HD radios is comparable to those in other categories? Or did you mention that there are HD radios in OTHER categories, like Table radio, or clock radio?

Your implication was clear, or so it seems to me: there are very few radios at the NPR shop, and this is evidence that HD is "going away". If that WASN'T your implication, then I apologize. If it was, I repeat....it's B.S.! But hey, we all put out some b.s. now and they, don't we? I plead guilty!
 
Re: Are there HD-2 and -3 fees for pubcasters? If so, will they hasten the demi

I went to the NPR site, using the link YOU provided in your post. I reported what I saw there. There were car radios, table radios, and component receivers including HD Radio. Don't fault me if the link you wanted us to reference doesn't support your case adequately.
 
Mike Walker said:
Savage, if those were the only available HD radios, then you'd have a point. But there are many dozens of products available now, in all price rages. That "they're only available for 200 dollars' b.s. just doesn't wash, this being '09, rather than '06!

NPR doesn't have some of the latest models, but places like Best Buy, Radio Shack (stores, not their web site yet), Target, J&R Music World, B&H Photo/Video/Audio, Crutchfield, Universal Radio, and many others have a plethora of models. HD has reached the stage where for many products it's just "in there"...home theater receivers, table radios, shelf systems, aftermarket car stereos, and other devices. And there's a "new sherriff in town". Remember, when Democrats control things, they're prone to passing a few regulations to speed things along...like the adoption of digital technology to replace analog. With Dems controlling both branches of Congress and the White House, things like REQUIRING satellite radios to also receive HD (as well as cell phones to receive FM) become MUCH more likely. Now THAT's "change we can believe in" ;)

If these places are teaming with HD radios as you seem to say, why I haven't I seen any? Why have I never seen any one who owned one except for me who bought it basically for experimentation reasons. No one is ever going to mandate iBlock into Satellite receivers. There are only a few Dems like Ed Markie D-MA who coincidentally derives the majority of his campaign funds from the communications industry.
 
"Why haven't I seen any?" Could it be that you haven't been in a Best Buy, Target, or Radio Shack? Or perhaps J&R (if you live in New York). Or Tweeter, or (insert name of custom installer here). Could it be that you simply haven't been shopping for a home theater receiver, and don't realize that HD is already in a HUGE percentage of them?

Look, I live in freakin' Wilkes County NC, which has more cows and chickens than people, and I see the damn things in stores (in Hickory, Boone, Charlotte, Morganton, Winston-Salem, and here in Wilkes County) all the time. That's the truth, but not the whole truth. The "rest of the truth" is that often the damn things aren't hooked up properly, and can seldom be demonstrated. But that's true of the FM sections of just about every component receiver too, and I don't think analog FM stereo is on it's way out.

HD radio is in so many new products that you'll actually have to avoid some very big names in order to avoid it (Sony, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Polk-Audio, Insignia (Best Buy house brand, and a big seller), etc. Far be it from me to suggest that you actually check the HD Radio website for a list of available products and dealers. It's far more extensieve than you seem to think, growing all the time, and these dealers actually have the product...I've checked! A glind person may not see the sun rise. It doesn't mean it remains dark for everyone!
 
Mike Walker said:
"Why haven't I seen any?" Could it be that you haven't been in a Best Buy, Target, or Radio Shack? Or perhaps J&R (if you live in New York). Or Tweeter, or (insert name of custom installer here). Could it be that you simply haven't been shopping for a home theater receiver, and don't realize that HD is already in a HUGE percentage of them?
I agree with you , Mike, but there is a regianla difference. In our market we have 2 HD stations. Both work great, but overall there's not a lot of interest and thus only a couple of radios at best per store. The local Ops MGR of the HD station says It's on 2 of 32 stations, I think I'm pretty lucky to get a couple of models.

Accurate assessment, IMHO.

Clouseau
 
Mike Walker said:
"Why haven't I seen any?" Could it be that you haven't been in a Best Buy, Target, or Radio Shack? Or perhaps J&R (if you live in New York). Or Tweeter, or (insert name of custom installer here). Could it be that you simply haven't been shopping for a home theater receiver, and don't realize that HD is already in a HUGE percentage of them?

Of course I have, my wife is a shopaholic as well as working at Target and I will sometimes accompany her just to check out the HD scene in these stores when bored and I see very few. I haven't been in Tweeter for some time. I haven't been in any high end stores in a while because I'm happy with the system I have. I have been in a Bose outlet however and didn't see a-one.
I will also go to a Rat Shack in a vain attempt to find certain electronic parts and have seen none in any around here. Mike, you must live in HD mecca. I live in reality ;D
 
KB1OKL said:
Mike Walker said:
"Why haven't I seen any?" Could it be that you haven't been in a Best Buy, Target, or Radio Shack? Or perhaps J&R (if you live in New York). Or Tweeter, or (insert name of custom installer here). Could it be that you simply haven't been shopping for a home theater receiver, and don't realize that HD is already in a HUGE percentage of them?

Of course I have, my wife is a shopaholic as well as working at Target and I will sometimes accompany her just to check out the HD scene in these stores when bored and I see very few. I haven't been in Tweeter for some time. I haven't been in any high end stores in a while because I'm happy with the system I have. I have been in a Bose outlet however and didn't see a-one.
I will also go to a Rat Shack in a vain attempt to find certain electronic parts and have seen none in any around here. Mike, you must live in HD mecca. I live in reality ;D

Ditto.
Somewhat different stores visited, about the same results.
Several Radio Shack's still have their original stock of Boston Acoustics and Accurian models, and they don't plan to restock any HD radios until those are sold, if at all.
 
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