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Audio Discussion Of The Upcoming Frequency Swap of CFRO 102.7 and CKPK 100.5

Interesting piece. It cleared up a few things that had me puzzled about the deal. However when the guests mentioned "use it or lose it" regarding allocated power, they apparently don't know what they're talking about. With KZOK 102.5 operating with 73,000 watts and KNBQ 102.9 with 70,000 watts how can a Class B or C station operate on 102.7 anywhere in the Puget Sound region?
 
The FCC doesn't seem to be protecting any Canadian station signals on this side of the border anymore - note the wiping out of CKWX AM1130 during daytime hours by a new high powered AM playing Mexican music from outside of Portland. I think it's a shame how much interference there is now, but in this case, having an adjacent in Vancouver to stations that are 110 and 200 miles south is actually probably not going to cut into anyone's signal so much that many will notice.

However, the relaxation of the signal protection rules over the "border" (hey, folks, radio don't know no stinkin' borders) is ignoring the way signals actually transmit thru valleys and over salt water. I can get the Olympia area FMs loud and clear in the Northern Seattle suburbs - and they're all on top of full-power Vancouver station frequencies. The signal mush starts around Everett when Vancouver gets stronger (and, on a clear day, you can actually see the mountains the Vancouver FM towers are on from I-5 in Everett.)

I'm all for new statons, but I lament the degredation of the FM dial, which is gettng as bad as the almost usefull chaos on AM now. I couldn't find one clear channel 50kw AM without significant interference last night on a partial AM dial scan in Seattle for out of town stations that used to come in clear as a local. (I gave up after awhile, so there may be a few left, but the "cool" factor of picking up signals from far away is gone now.) Signal degradation. as I see it, is yet another way to limit the growth of broadcast radio - despite the financial successes of a few people on this board this month who are eager to dispute whatever anyone else says about "problems" with the industry. Hey, if you can't hear it when you're driving down the highway, you're not gotta listen to it - until you've got an easy to operate, reliable, and affordable internet webstream in your vehicle. But what a dial that will be!

Expanded AM dial did nothing to help with this. Isn't it time for an expanded FM dial, unless you're giving up on "Radio?"
 
Dan said:
Interesting piece. It cleared up a few things that had me puzzled about the deal. However when the guests mentioned "use it or lose it" regarding allocated power, they apparently don't know what they're talking about. With KZOK 102.5 operating with 73,000 watts and KNBQ 102.9 with 70,000 watts how can a Class B or C station operate on 102.7 anywhere in the Puget Sound region?
Click to expand...

They could. How is up to the CRTC. What I think was meant was on the Canadian side, they still have the right to crank up the wattage of 102.7 to the full 100,000 watts. There's enough distance from KZOK and KNBQ to actually allow it and that 100,000 watt potential is something CFRO could never afford to use.

Secondly, it's rare that any Canadian station has to answer to US interference complaints and vice-versa. When CKPK goes on at 102.7 and kills KZOK reception in, say, Marysville - tough. Most likely, CBS wouldn't fight that anyway. It's not a priority area to them.

But Jim Pattison isn't forking over $1.5 million for a scrappy frequency with no potential. 102.7 is actually one of the best frequencies in the Lower Mainland. But to make it work, Jim Pattison has to get a brand new transmitter and move the tower (most likely share the CJJR facility)

Co-Op is getting 100.5 out of it, new STLs and the whole enchilada. 100.5 comes in far better than 102.7 currently does south of the border (as far south as Stanwood.) Over all, I think it's not a terribly bad deal.
 
Something else along those lines: The CBC has a construction permit for a 6,000 watt Radio One repeater in Abbotsford at 88.5. I'm wondering what kind of damage this will do to KPLU in Whatcom County? There could be a stink raised about this as KPLU listeners are more likely to complain than KZOK listeners would.
 
Dan said:
Something else along those lines: The CBC has a construction permit for a 6,000 watt Radio One repeater in Abbotsford at 88.5. I'm wondering what kind of damage this will do to KPLU in Whatcom County? There could be a stink raised about this as KPLU listeners are more likely to complain than KZOK listeners would.
Click to expand...

The damage is already being done. That's why they put KVIX Port Angeles on after CIBH went on at 88.5 on Vancouver Island. And why they have KPYU set to go on in Sedro-Woolley on 88.9 (how that works out with CBUX-FM2 in Victoria, which puts out a MONSTER signal out here is anybody's guess.) And why they moved their Mount Vernon translator to 91.1 from 91.3 after Victoria took it over, etc.

KPLU does have a Bellingham translator on 88.7.

But you're right. There will come a time when KPLU will finally have enough of being pushed around and SOME KIND of long overdue, halfway mutual agreement and MASSIVE frequency reorganization will need to happen between the US and Canada that will affect every FM station across the dial in Puget Sound, from Aberdeen on up and the Lower Mainland/Vancouver Island. Or an expansion down to 76 MHz. Something. Anything. Because it's totally unsustainable with the way things are currently on both sides.
 
Just thought I would pass on word that the CKPK 100.5 and CFRO 102.7 frequency swap was approved today.
http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2011/2011-580.htm

CKPK's power on 102.7 will increase to 51,000 watts (100,000 watts maximum ERP) from its existing 2,800 watts (11,000 watts maximum ERP) on 100.5. Guess we'll have to bid adieu to those nice clean signals from KZOK and KNBQ up here.
 
Great discussion everyone.

I for one am in complete agreement that we ought to better 'protect' all stations on both sides of the 49th.....the problem is that the FCC clearly does not care whatsoever, unless enough lawyers (ie $$ money gets involved) It seems as though the CRTC could care less too....!

One example recently approved by the FCC and to which I'm sure illustrates the insanity from a technical coverage standpoint is KPLU's so-called Class A CP App @ Sedro Wolley on 88.9 fm. (As recently posted + commented on this site)

The problem is: this new KPLU station will not only not cover jack squat, it's going to fly straight in the face with CBU's operation in Victoria. Interference everywhere to the east of Vancouver Is. and the San Juans, etc., while Sedro and Victoria 'duke it out' in this newly created interference zone.

Oh, but you may say the 'interference occurs 'mostly over water'.....I'm sure that guy listening in Friday Harbor really likes the 'multipath noise' too.....anymore than the other guy listening in downtown Bellingham.

I really think the FCC needs to re-visit the limits with regards to coverage areas and define the patterns as needed to better respect political boundaries to the best extent possible. This is already being done throughout much of Europe on the FM side. We do have the technology these days to do a better job and provide a cleaner path for all.

It's not my first choice but it would be better than the current status quo in my view. This maybe a better solution, although everyone will have to turn down the wattage and replace/add antennas to make it work on both sides of the border. The first step is for the US / FCC to start respecting our northern neighbor and to stop being such a bully! (and I am a US citizen/FYI)
 
It looks like the 60dbu contours, of KZOK and a full power, Vancouver based Class C, don't overlap. If that's the case, how can there be any "real" interference?
 
I am not asking this question because I have an agenda, don't like the stations, have an axe to grind, etc.

But in my mind most of the non-comm stations licensed to education institutions used to be coverage centered around the COL for the institution ... Tacoma, Seattle, Olympia, etc. Now we are getting these networks either through station bundling or translators ... and their goal is to have the same huge coverage area as commercial stations; or in some cases, coverages larger than the commercial stations.

So I'm wondering why we get uptight when a translator far away from the institution isn't going to reach an audience? At the very least .. maybe that's an opportunity for another education non-comm to ride the same bike .. and share the programming and add their own local inserts ... much like what WSU has with their network, except it might be made of several universities, colleges, high schools, or whatever joining "the network" and breaking away for other local pieces.

I know KPLU is fantastic .. but I'm not sure that means it needs to have protected coverage border-to-border??

Interested in people's thoughts on this .... ???
 
LITTLEBOYBLUE said:
I am not asking this question because I have an agenda, don't like the stations, have an axe to grind, etc.

But in my mind most of the non-comm stations licensed to education institutions used to be coverage centered around the COL for the institution ... Tacoma, Seattle, Olympia, etc. Now we are getting these networks either through station bundling or translators ... and their goal is to have the same huge coverage area as commercial stations; or in some cases, coverages larger than the commercial stations.

So I'm wondering why we get uptight when a translator far away from the institution isn't going to reach an audience? At the very least .. maybe that's an opportunity for another education non-comm to ride the same bike .. and share the programming and add their own local inserts ... much like what WSU has with their network, except it might be made of several universities, colleges, high schools, or whatever joining "the network" and breaking away for other local pieces.

I know KPLU is fantastic .. but I'm not sure that means it needs to have protected coverage border-to-border??

Interested in people's thoughts on this .... ???
Click to expand...

I've thought about this and maybe you're right. We have the internet and mobile apps now, so maybe FM translators are obsolete overall.

And if that's the case, well, that just about wraps it up for CSN/EMF as well.
 
Bong, could you do me a huge favor and see if the link to the podcast is stil working for you? I've searched through the 2011 archives, clicked the link several times, but stil can't get the correct podcast to come up, it's as if they've taken it down.
 
bobdavcav said:
Bong, could you do me a huge favor and see if the link to the podcast is stil working for you? I've searched through the 2011 archives, clicked the link several times, but stil can't get the correct podcast to come up, it's as if they've taken it down.
Click to expand...

I tried, but no luck. I should have downloaded it when it was new.......
 
bobdavcav said:
Does anyone have it? I don't get it, why would they take this podcast down and nothing else?
Click to expand...

I'm sure it's still out there....just very well hidden......
 
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