Been to HDRadio.com lately? TONS of new HD products!

[Mike Walker]

Anybody been to HDRadio.com lately, and checked out the products? I remember a few months ago, people here harping about how "it's just a few radios, by just a few small manufacturers...no major products, from major brands. No component receivers. Nothing affordable", that type of thing. How times have changed!

http://www.hdradio.com/available_products.php

Too many brand names, too many products, too many national and regional dealers to cite in MANY posts, and HD slipping into more and more products..." going along for the ride" in receivers, just as XM and Sirius began to do a couple of years back. I'd guess that in the next year or so, millions will discover that they bought an HD Radio device of one type or another, whether they set out to or not. THAT is how radio products become successful!

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Too many brand names, too many products, too many national and regional dealers to cite in MANY posts, and HD slipping into more and more products..." going along for the ride" in receivers, just as XM and Sirius began to do a couple of years back. I'd guess that in the next year or so, millions will discover that they bought an HD Radio device of one type or another, whether they set out to or not. THAT is how radio products become successful!

The difference here is that the signal is not robust, while satellite is. What you have, under the best circumstances (close enough to the transmitter) is the same situation as AM stereo. Lots of people may have it, but are unaware that they do. AM stereo being in millions of cars did not save it. Neither will the availability of products save HD radio, only consumer interest (if and when it develops) will. HD-2 and 3 on FM is a plus, but only if programmed with something listeners want. And only if it is transparent to users and easy to use.

 

[fybush]

The difference here is that the signal is not robust, while satellite is. What you have, under the best circumstances (close enough to the transmitter) is the same situation as AM stereo. Lots of people may have it, but are unaware that they do. AM stereo being in millions of cars did not save it. Neither will the availability of products save HD radio, only consumer interest (if and when it develops) will. HD-2 and 3 on FM is a plus, but only if programmed with something listeners want. And only if it is transparent to users and easy to use.

I think Bruce and I will have to agree to disagree about the robustness of HD versus satellite, since there would seem to be something happening with the FM signals from the Cedar Hill farm in Dallas compared with the experiences others are having in other markets. Conversely, satellite in urban areas can be a nightmare if the local repeaters aren't functioning well, and they often aren't.

That said: I think Bruce is spot-on about the other points. The content has to be there, has to be well-promoted and has to be easily accessible.

I wrote last week about the talk show we did at WXXI in Rochester that produced a bunch of unsolicited calls from actual users of our WXXI-FM-HD2 and HD3 signals. Now the show is available on our podcast page, so you can hear for yourself.

Here's the link: http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wxxi/.jukebox?action=viewPodcast&podcastId=6463

The relevant items here are "Holiday Special Pt. 1" (the first HD Radio call is about 6 minutes in) and "Holiday Special Pt. 2" (the two HD Radio calls are about 1 minute in and 5 minutes in). Please don't take my word for this. Listen for yourself.

 

[jras20]

There is really no HD-2 format out yet that I really like it just drops way to much for me to listen to, and really there is no reason for it to drop out, my analog signal locks into stereo signal clean, no drops, nothing. I dont plan on spending any more money on HDRadio untill they can fix that problem.

 

[Chuck]

While it is true the list is growing, it is still not very impressive in terms used in the Consumer Electronics industry. Many of those links take you to a BA Receptor or an Accurian radio. A few take you to the Sony. Other links are pretty obscure too. I doubt many regular people will want a Day Sequerra tuner or even one from Rotel. Most folks have never heard of Sangean, Dice, ADA, AGT and many of the other brands listed.

Have you ever visited a CES show? You should sometime. It is in the same Las Vegas Convention Center that houses the NAB show. As many broadcasters can attest, the place is HUGE. The density of products shown at CES makes NAB look like a traveling medicine show. There will be thousands and thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of new consumer products shown there in January. Unless something changes radically, a couple of dozen HD radio products is nothing when compared with the entire consumer electronics industry. The will probably go unnoticed by most attendees. So far this is about as revolutionary as adding an extra set of RCA jacks on the back of your TV.

Perhaps radio takes itself too seriously, thinking that HD is on the forefront of the consumer's minds. Sorry it isn't. At least right now, it just doesn't matter very much to most people.
.

 

[Mike Walker]

First of all, I doubt FM Stereo was "at the forefront of consumer's minds" when it began to take off. Technology, particularly broadcast technology, doesn't have to be "at the forefront of people's minds" in order to be successful. All it has to be is IN THE DEVICES THEY BUY, when it comes time to buy! At that, HD is succeeding.

And oh, the observation about "many of the links take you...." and "the public has never heard of Sangean (Sangean is a HUGE OEM for other companies, and has several BIG HIT PRODUCTS ON THEIR OWN, which you'd know if you investigated, rather than assumed!), Dice, Accurian, etc. Ok Chuck, ya' think the public has heard of Yamaha, Onkyo, Sony, Polk, Jensen, Kenwood, etc? Just a few of the names you MUST LEAVE OUT for your argument about obscure brands to make any damn sense.

And don't be so quick to dismiss high-end home theater gear by companies like Rotel, etc. Been to a newsstand lately? It's EXPLODING with publications about HOME THEATER! Home theater is enormously popular, especially among those with high disposable income. Getting into the home theater products that people buy anyway is as important for the success of HD Radio as it was for XM and Sirius. And now HD is in many of the same damn products as XM and Sirius. Considering ALL OF THE EVIDENCE, rather than cherry-picking kind of sheds a different light on the situation, huh?

 

[Radioman100]

There is really no HD-2 format out yet that I really like it just drops way to much for me to listen to, and really there is no reason for it to drop out, my analog signal locks into stereo signal clean, no drops, nothing. I dont plan on spending any more money on HDRadio untill they can fix that problem.

Love ya man, but you live in the country. Not just a little bit in the country either. You're trying to lock onto stations located some 80 miles away from you.

Analog is really spotty at that distance, much less HD.

 

[Radioman100]

I don't know where the notion that there's something wrong with the Cedar Hill HDs in Dallas came from.

In my experience, they perform really well.

 

[Chuck]

First of all, I doubt FM Stereo was "at the forefront of consumer's minds" when it began to take off. Technology, particularly broadcast technology, doesn't have to be "at the forefront of people's minds" in order to be successful. All it has to be is IN THE DEVICES THEY BUY, when it comes time to buy! At that, HD is succeeding.

That is what it will take, since there does not seem to be a pent up demand for the product. Eventually that could come to pass, but it isn’t here now. Your history is a little rusty though about FM stereo. Perhaps the fact that I'm about 10 years older than you are may explain that gap. At the time of its introduction, people really did want FM stereo. They wanted it enough that they were even willing to build kits for add on decoders. Knight, Heath, Lafayette Radio, Eico, and even Radio Shack offered outboard adapters in both kit and pre-wired versions. Magazines like Popular Electronics and Electronics Illustrated had articles about how to modify your existing tuner to accommodate a stereo adapter. There were a lot of hobbyists with soldering irons out there. For the most part, they are a vanished breed.

Back in the late 50’s and early 1960’s, there weren't a lot of other competing technologies, so the idea of radio in stereo was exciting. I can't say that's the case today. There are bazillions of other electronic distractions to choose from. Most people are more interested in watching movies on their ipod or cell phone. I can't say I'm one of them, but that is today’s reality. Comparing HD to early FM stereo isn't as valid a comparison as you make it out to be.

And oh, the observation about "many of the links take you...." and "the public has never heard of Sangean (Sangean is a HUGE OEM for other companies, and has several BIG HIT PRODUCTS ON THEIR OWN, which you'd know if you investigated, rather than assumed!), Dice, Accurian, etc. Ok Chuck, ya' think the public has heard of Yamaha, Onkyo, Sony, Polk, Jensen, Kenwood, etc? Just a few of the names you MUST LEAVE OUT for your argument about obscure brands to make any damn sense.

Yeah, the Yamaha link shows one receiver. It is priced at $5499.95 (that price is not a misprint). I'm sure they well a couple of thousand of them. Do you have any idea how many products Yamaha makes? It is thousands and thousands. The Sony link shows one radio. You will note that even I like that radio and I've said so right here on this forum. But it is ONE radio out of a product line that once again is thousands of products. Polk makes two very similar looking HD radios. They are not a huge player in consumer electronics. There stuff is usually pretty good though. Jensen also shows one table radio, and they are very proud of its ability to dock with your ipod. Oh yeah, it does have an HD tuner. They also have one HD car radio. That's not a lot. Sangean is a great OEM suplier, but not exactly a household word. I doubt that many people can even pronounce it. And the Jensen of today is not even vaguely related to the one that built quality loudspeakers back in the 50’s 60’s and 70’s.

As for Kenwood, the link doesn't even go to a HD radio site. I have some of their communications equipment and it is very good.

And don't be so quick to dismiss high-end home theater gear by companies like Rotel, etc. Been to a newsstand lately? It's EXPLODING with publications about HOME THEATER! Home theater is enormously popular, especially among those with high disposable income. Getting into the home theater products that people buy anyway is as important for the success of HD Radio as it was for XM and Sirius. And now HD is in many of the same damn products as XM and Sirius. Considering ALL OF THE EVIDENCE, rather than cherry-picking kind of sheds a different light on the situation, huh?

The newsstands are exploding with publications period. Name your topic, and there are several magazines aimed directly toward you. The ability to assemble a decent looking publication for cheap (thanks to a computer) has given us that. Most are hemorrhaging money and don't last long. Publishing makes radio look like a good way to make money.

The extreme high end of the consumer electronics industry has always been about very low numbers. What is exploding in the high end is home theater, video projectors and systems to integrate and control them all. Very few people actually listen to the radio through their home theater set up. They are much more likely to watch OTA TV, Satellite TV, DVD’s or play video games through them. If you want an “explosion” check out PlayStation III or Nintendo WII.

There will always be high end audiophiles who want to pay $150 for a six foot oxygen free silver plated cable with gold plated connectors that don’t mate very will with the jack on their equipment. You’re from the South, so you’ll know what I mean when I say “Bless their hearts….”

I can't blame you for thinking what you do, but I've worked in the high end consumer market, and also owned an audio company that had a retail division. There is no way I can educate you about how it works in a paragraph or two, so I will not attempt the exercise. It is a very tough business that’s all about volume and "turns." "Turns" are the frequency that your inventory rotates. Something that has a turn of less than six per year will end up costing you money unless there is a very large profit margin in it. Most high end equipment has that margin. “Consumer Electronics” does not. It is a fact of life that you have to stock some slow turning products to look like a real player, but the truth of the matter is anything that doesn't have to be restocked every month or so is a drain on your capital. Get enough boat anchors hanging around and you will go out of business.

Right now, HD has "Boat Anchor" written all over it. Because I've grown to consider you a friend, I won't go on, but a few new links on a web site is not indicative of how the retail market works.

 

[Chuck]

I don't know where the notion that there's something wrong with the Cedar Hill HDs in Dallas came from.

In my experience, they perform really well.

They should. The area is pretty flat, and the towers are about as high as you are likely to find anywhere. Yet I know people who live it the Metroplex who can't get HD to work inside their homes or offices. Part of that is because it is such a spread out community. For instance, it can take a couple of hours to drive from Plano to Burleson if traffic isn't too bad. I'm sure that both communities consider themselves to be part of "The Metroplex." Same goes for people in far away areas like Allen and even McKinney who commute to Dallas every day. It's a long, long way....

 

[Mike Walker]

Chuck, I BUILT KITS! I MISS LAFAYETTE! I still own a Lafayette tuner I bought when I was a kid, with money I made mowing lawns. And Lafayette was to electronics hobbyists in the 60s and 70s what computer-building is to geeks today...a niche. A far smaller one than, say, SANGEAN, which has sold MILLIONS of radios...none of which had to be assembled by their owners!

My family didn't actually buy their first FM radio. It was a Zenith table radio. Mono. And it was GREAT! The first stereo (a Zenith console) was actually bought to play records, not specifically to listen to radio (the closest FM, WIFM Elkin, was mono until the 80s, WKBC FM in North Wilkesboro NC was, of course, stereo), but to play records. Adding headphones to this console, I discovered FM stereo, and began my lifelong obsession with headphone listening! So we didn't specifically set out to acquire FM Stereo. We bought a device which contained it. And I discovered I FREAKIN' LOVED IT! I suspect that's the case with many, prehaps most.

 

[jras20]

There is really no HD-2 format out yet that I really like it just drops way to much for me to listen to, and really there is no reason for it to drop out, my analog signal locks into stereo signal clean, no drops, nothing. I dont plan on spending any more money on HDRadio untill they can fix that problem.

Love ya man, but you live in the country. Not just a little bit in the country either. You're trying to lock onto stations located some 80 miles away from you.

Analog is really spotty at that distance, much less HD.

Cant argue with you there, but I can put the antenna at the right place and get analog pretty decent, I guess thats the good thing, heck the phone companie couldnt even find me!

 

[RoscoeBrowning]

There is really no HD-2 format out yet that I really like it just drops way to much for me to listen to, and really there is no reason for it to drop out, my analog signal locks into stereo signal clean, no drops, nothing. I dont plan on spending any more money on HDRadio untill they can fix that problem.

Love ya man, but you live in the country. Not just a little bit in the country either. You're trying to lock onto stations located some 80 miles away from you.

Analog is really spotty at that distance, much less HD.

Why should that be his problem? If he wants a product and the product can't deliver to his location, the manufacturer needs to find a solution... and they haven't.

I'm fairly confidant that he can receive satellite and internet delivered audio where he is, though.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I think Bruce and I will have to agree to disagree about the robustness of HD versus satellite, since there would seem to be something happening with the FM signals from the Cedar Hill farm in Dallas compared with the experiences others are having in other markets. Conversely, satellite in urban areas can be a nightmare if the local repeaters aren't functioning well, and they often aren't.

I had some money to throw at the question, and am working on HD reception characteristics in the metroplex. I want to do it right, with multiple locations, so I'll be back with some real data in the new year. I'm also going to investigate Houston, see what the problem is there. I suspect the answer is the sideband power, plus the gain / bandwidth product of the receivers - something that I think was overlooked by iBiquity. But I'll find out how robust the system really is shortly.

 

[Mike Walker]

Come on Roscoebrowning, you don't REALLY want to make the place that it's easier (not to mention cheaper) to get internet radio than HD, do you?

As for satellite, you guys who live in metropolitan areas don't know what it's like out here "in the sticks", where there are no terrestrial repeaters. Satellite radio works well (I'm an XM subscriber). But let's not pretend it's so rock-solid there are never dropouts. Just ain't so!

 

[jras20]

Come on Roscoebrowning, you don't REALLY want to make the place that it's easier (not to mention cheaper) to get internet radio than HD, do you?

As for satellite, you guys who live in metropolitan areas don't know what it's like out here "in the sticks", where there are no terrestrial repeaters. Satellite radio works well (I'm an XM subscriber). But let's not pretend it's so rock-solid there are never dropouts. Just ain't so!

Internet radio is out of the question for me 24.0 connection will hardly get email! And I refuse to pay for XM its not worth 170$/year! I have DSL out at my home place but out there its 24.0.

 

[Radioman100]

There is really no HD-2 format out yet that I really like it just drops way to much for me to listen to, and really there is no reason for it to drop out, my analog signal locks into stereo signal clean, no drops, nothing. I dont plan on spending any more money on HDRadio untill they can fix that problem.

Love ya man, but you live in the country. Not just a little bit in the country either. You're trying to lock onto stations located some 80 miles away from you.

Analog is really spotty at that distance, much less HD.

Why should that be his problem? If he wants a product and the product can't deliver to his location, the manufacturer needs to find a solution... and they haven't.

I'm fairly confidant that he can receive satellite and internet delivered audio where he is, though.

There is a solution. The small town he lives somewhat close to offers several radio stations of its own.

 

[Chuck]

Chuck, I BUILT KITS! I MISS LAFAYETTE!

I do too!

 

[R.F. Burns]

Half of my first novice ham equipment was manufactured by Lafayette.
This was my first receiver.

http://www.qsl.net/la5ki/org/la/ha600.jpg

It was pared with a Heathkit DX 35;


http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~postr/bapix/DX35.htm

This was soon replaced by a Johnson Ranger 1 and a National NC 303 receiver.

 

[Chuck]

Half of my first novice ham equipment was manufactured by Lafayette.
This was my first receiver.

http://www.qsl.net/la5ki/org/la/ha600.jpg
It was pared with a Heathkit DX 35;
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~postr/bapix/DX35.htm
This was soon replaced by a Johnson Ranger 1 and a National NC 303 receiver.

My first receiver was also from Lafayette. I think it might have been a little earlier version than yours. Perhaps it was the previous model. It was in a blue gray hammer tone case and looked fairly industrial. It was probably similar circuitry wise. As I recall it drifted a lot, but I kinda wish I still had it.