Bob McAllan Is Not A Fan Of HD Radio

[nd2023]

The general public doesn't know about HD Radios. They claim a million have been sold. I bet half have been returned and the ones that aren't are just not receiving HD programming. Nobody I've met who isn't involved in radio knows what HD radio is. Even people who work in radio don't know what HD radio is.

But an HD2 station recently made the ratings. Of course, it was heavily promoted by the HD1 station and they claim that they have record Internet stream listening, so 99.9% of their listeners are listening online.

 

[TheBigA]

The general public doesn't know about HD Radios.

That's the problem with anything that's "proprietary." So the company has control, but it doesn't go viral. In this world, you want to go viral. That means losing control. That's why I have said over & over that the main mistake these folks have made, in terms of reaching the public, is insisting on charging in advance. Everybody loves a free sample. When I'm in a store and they hand me a piece of meat on a toothpick, I take it. It could be cat or rat or dog, but I'd try it. Same with HD radio. It could be a dog, but people would try it if it was free. Until that happens, it will remain a well-kept secret.

 

[Savage]

Right you are, Nick. Let's recall that the stream listenership is included in the HD-2 numbers. So there are probably 16 people out there standing on their heads hanging onto 14-foot yagis in JUST THE RIGHT POSITION to actually listen to the HD-2. The rest of the listenership is on computers.

Of course, C, B-S as initiators of HD whose execs are former iBiquity execs, is so desperate for an HD success story, they'd plunk their 15-year old daughters in the back seat of a taxi with Lawrence Taylor, Roman Polanski and Eliot Spitzer just to get one. I'm sure the Dance-format HD-2 has been promoted (hyped) beyond all reason.

As for how many HD receivers are out there - who knows? Certainly those behind HD Radio aren't interested in letting us know actual numbers. But I would bet on the following:

1. An inordinate number are in landfills or spare-parts bins, since HD receivers have had extraordinarily high early failure rates.

2. Radio station prize closets. And in NPR pledge-drive stash closets.

3. Radio station monitors - not for digital functionality, but because the DSP technology makes for a superbly sensititve analog receiver (WYSL being one of these.)

4. "The curious and the kooky" - atypical hobbyist/enthusiast users, techy geeks, experimenters, DXers. (It's ironic that HD zealots regularly vilify DXers. If this board is any guide, DXers comprise a considerable segment what tiny HD digital audience exists.)

5. Gathering dust because of disappointing or frustrating performance. (Let's not overlook the obvious: just because X number of receivers are out there, doesn't mean X number of radios are actually being used.)

So...take the iBiquity claim of a million radios sold, or 1.3 million, or whatever it is this hour. Assign your favorite number-of-receivers or percentage to each of items 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. Multiply by the square of the hypoteneuse, divide by your age in dog-years, and you have "the most accurate statement of actual HD Radios sold and in use to date!!!" Which is:

Sixty-seven.

 

[Carmine5]

Of course, C, B-S as initiators of HD whose execs are former iBiquity execs, is so desperate for an HD success story, they'd plunk their 15-year old daughters in the back seat of a taxi with Lawrence Taylor, Roman Polanski and Eliot Spitzer just to get one. I'm sure the Dance-format HD-2 has been promoted (hyped) beyond all reason.

As for how many HD receivers are out there - who knows? Certainly those behind HD Radio aren't interested in letting us know actual numbers. But I would bet on the following:

This is so true. Sometimes HD Radio promoters can be so desperate for good news on the number of units sold that they will trumpet something as minor as the number of chipsets shipped. A couple of weeks ago, Inside Radio reported this:

"Digital radio chips shipped has passed the one million mark. In noting the milestone, chip manufacturer SiPort says its SP1010 chip is featured in a majority of mobile media player platforms, including the Microsoft Zune HD... mobile device markets are expected to be instrumental in attracting consumers to HD Radio"

http://www.insideradio.com/article.asp?id=1867881

But if you read the specs on the SP1010 chip you'll see that it is a multifunction chip. Yes, it could be going into HD Radios or it could be going into any number of portable products that have nothing to do with HD Radio.

http://www.siport.com/products/sp1010.html

So quantities of chips sold have little to do with the number of HD Radios sold. c5

 

[nd2023]

I guess I'm one of the few people who listens to my HD radio every day. I mainly use it to check for the presence of DX because it's so sensitive. I know 2 people who actually have an HD radio in their cars, and they both work in radio.

I think I might give my portable HD radio to someone. That would result in a significant increase in HD listenership in NJ, since that would be one more HD radio in use. And it's only $40 for another one.

 

[KB1OKL]

4. "The curious and the kooky" - atypical hobbyist/enthusiast users, techy geeks, experimenters, DXers. (It's ironic that HD zealots regularly vilify DXers. If this board is any guide, DXers comprise a considerable segment what tiny HD digital audience exists.)

5. Gathering dust because of disappointing or frustrating performance. (Let's not overlook the obvious: just because X number of receivers are out there, doesn't mean X number of radios are actually being used.)

You can put me down for both 4 and 5, I'm a DXer and my Sony is and has been gathering dust for probably a year now. If I get industrious enough I may someday modify it to shut off HD reception and use it for analog FM DX with a nice big yagi but up to now FM DXing has not interested me like AM DXing does.

 

[hubcity]

So there are probably 16 people out there standing on their heads hanging onto 14-foot yagis in JUST THE RIGHT POSITION to actually listen to the HD-2.

Y'know, I know that you're well versed in this stuff, but honestly, it's clear you think you're in a forum where everyone agrees that HD is the greatest blight on mankind since the biblical plagues, and for many who post here that may be the case, but I don't agree.

Underpowered? Yes. Overhyped? Yes. Interference-causing? I'll take your word for it, especially with regard to AM.

But every time you say this sort of thing, I wonder what else you're exaggerating about. You're as on-message as the iBiquity shills, and that makes it hard to trust either of you.

As you know, I'm running an HD station and that's my bias. The first time I actually voice-tracked a shift, the first response I got on Facebook was from someone listening via HD. That says to me that there's more HD listeners out there than you're willing to let on (and, I agree, fewer than iBiquity says.)

There's value in accuracy. Every word you utter does *not* have to advance the cause of the demise of HD.

 

[Savage]

It's called "humor...."

 

[Len14043]

Right you are, Nick. Let's recall that the stream listenership is included in the HD-2 numbers. So there are probably 16 people out there standing on their heads hanging onto 14-foot yagis in JUST THE RIGHT POSITION to actually listen to the HD-2. The rest of the listenership is on computers.

Seriously Bob, the reception for the HD-2 channels isn't bad and actually serves the majority of the population. I am 15 miles from the FM sticks in my area and have no problems with reception while listening indoors. There are no dropouts. The mobil reception is even better. On the stations that increased their power to -14dbm, the dropouts that occur in the immediate listening area are non-existent or minimal. At -14dbm, the indoor reception is reliable out to just short of the -60dbm contour, and the mobil reception is solid out to near the -50dbm contour, and spotty out to -40. If HD radio fails, it is not because of the technology, but because of other factors such as the economy, other technologies, and the nature of radio itself. Radio in general is suffering, and the lack of popularity for HD radio is just another facet of the malaise for terrestrial radio. In a nutshell, HD radio work well at -14dbm. In fact, I'll go out on a limb: I suspect local FM HD signals at -14dbm would cover Rochester and Monroe County at night better than WYSL. If WBZ wasn't spewing IBOC over WYSL, the monkey chatter would affect your station if WBZ ran 10KHZ audio - especially if they played music. Perhaps radio owners are wary of increased competition should HD take off because the FM technology actually works quite well. Incidentally, I don't use a Yagi, and don't have to orient the radio in precisely to right position - unless I'm trying to receive an out-of-market station.

 

[Play Freebird]

If HD radio fails, it is not because of the technology, but because of other factors such as the economy, other technologies, and the nature of radio itself. Radio in general is suffering, and the lack of popularity for HD radio is just another facet of the malaise for terrestrial radio. In a nutshell, HD radio work well at -14dbm.

Several weeks ago, one of my local public radio clients increased IBOC injection to -14 dBc in "standard hybrid" mode and I ran the required occupied bandwidth measurements (yep, I'm enough of a mercenary to do this kind of work). I recently drove through some of the problem areas to check coverage and found that the increased power made a slight improvement, but there are still significant dropouts behind hills well within the predicted 60 dBu contour -- so as most of us suspected, this is not a cure-all.

Several days after the injection was turned up, the station began getting complaints from a Korean broadcaster who leases the 92 kHz SCA; he reported that his receivers have been adversely affected. Not sure yet how they're going to resolve this issue, they may just need to compromise and back it down 3 dB.

 

[Savage]

Len, I appreciate your comments. Just for the record, WYSL commenced nighttime directional operation in December 1997. Until WBZ started using IBOC in sometime-2006, they DID run 10 kHz analog audio, and there were no adjacent-channel problems for almost a decade.

Let's recall that the NRSC pre-emphasis curve with the brick-wall 10 kHz audio filter has been de rigeur since 1990. It was designed to prevent precisely the kind of adjacent-channel problems you describe.

I get that you think that HD is a good idea. But I would argue that in the case of an HD-2 operating on a Class B facility 15 miles from the tower, ANY dropouts do not represent acceptable performance. Let's remember that when an HD sub drops out, there's no analog backup. You get a muted receiver. I don't think the typical listener will put up with it.

 

[JohnnyElectron]

In analog, not only did WBZ run 10KHz audio, but it was nice sounding stereo audio to boot, prior to IBOC analog degradation!

 

[satech]

In analog, not only did WBZ run 10KHz audio, but it was nice sounding stereo audio to boot, prior to IBOC analog degradation!

I believe WBZ still maintains their backup transmitter with C-Quam stereo. They have it on the air every once in a while, probably whenever the main HD behemoth has a hiccup and plays dead for a while.

 

[Len14043]

I get that you think that HD is a good idea. But I would argue that in the case of an HD-2 operating on a Class B facility 15 miles from the tower, ANY dropouts do not represent acceptable performance. Let's remember that when an HD sub drops out, there's no analog backup. You get a muted receiver. I don't think the typical listener will put up with it.

Its subjective as to what's an acceptable frequency for dropouts on the HD-2s, but I'll compare it to sat radio which has occasionally dropouts. If there is a occasional dropout lasting under 1 second every 5 minutes or so, I would deem that as acceptable. I don't know if there is an industry standard for sat radio as to what is acceptable, and I'm sure the frequency of dropouts which is tolerable would be in the ear of the beholder, and would vary from listener to listener.

 

[tomservo]

Its subjective as to what's an acceptable frequency for dropouts on the HD-2s, but I'll compare it to sat radio which has occasionally dropouts. If there is a occasional dropout lasting under 1 second every 5 minutes or so, I would deem that as acceptable. I don't know if there is an industry standard for sat radio as to what is acceptable, and I'm sure the frequency of dropouts which is tolerable would be in the ear of the beholder, and would vary from listener to listener.

Part of the problem with HD dropouts is they're not very predictable. It has always been easy to figure out where satellite radio (or at least, XM's stationary satellites) will drop out. Stopping under an overpass, for example, or any building tall enough to block LOS in areas without repeaters.

In the 4-5 years I'd owned an XM radio, I can count the number of places where signal dropout was constant on one hand. I-81 in rural Virginia 'going round the mountain', downtown Jackson, downtown Vicksburg and pretty much any tree lined street in Savannah, Georgia.

But with HD, it seems like no matter where I am, I'm on the fringe of the signal. I was just in Albuquerque and the town has a clear view of Sandia Peak, where most of the radio stations broadcast from. And yet all through town I kept getting dropouts. One day it'd be one place, the next that would be fine and the dropout would be somewhere else.

In LA it was no different. I could peek out a motel window and see Mt Wilson but couldn't maintain a lock on any HD station to save my life. Until one day they were fine. Some fleeting interference? Who knows. But it was frustrating.

So far the only city where HD has really impressed me is St. Louis. I got no real dropouts anywhere in the city, or in my hotel room, or even in the deepest recesses of any building I listened in. If only the listening experience were that good everywhere!

 

[badjef]

Any new technology will not be embraced as long as it takes away anything desirable from the current one. Range is one of those criteria.

On FM or AM, the range is limited to about 40% of the original signal. C-quam was about 70% - providing you didn't honk the horn. FM stereo was between 90-100% of the coverage. Kahn was 95-110% of the mono range.

At least the station would revert back to mono without skipping a beat. That is just not true with AM or FM "HD"

The best use I've seen is with WBJB. It is a way of providing a student forum without sacrificing the main channel information.

Does anybody have any other examples?

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[Len14043]

For some reason, my experience with HD Radio is different than most of the posters on this board. When I travel to different cities, I use my Insignia in the rental car. I listen to the HD-2s so I can tell if the signal drops out. In most of the populated areas, the signal dropouts are minimal - especially if the station operates at -14dbc. This is repeated in many cities including Dayton, Columbus, Chicago, Salt Lake, Denver and numerous other cities. At my location, the areas where dropouts occur are repeatable and predictable, and are due to terrain shielding. Digital repeaters would work well in those areas because the capture effect would have less of an effect on digital. The only thing wrong with the system is that its underpowered, and increases to -14 dbc go a long way to improve the signal. Obviously, -10dbc would be better. As I stated in another post, the FM HD-2s have better coverage than most of the nighttime AM stations.

 

[RadeoEngineer]

For some reason, my experience with HD Radio is different than most of the posters on this board. When I travel to different cities, I use my Insignia in the rental car. I listen to the HD-2s so I can tell if the signal drops out. In most of the populated areas, the signal dropouts are minimal - especially if the station operates at -14dbc. This is repeated in many cities including Dayton, Columbus, Chicago, Salt Lake, Denver and numerous other cities. At my location, the areas where dropouts occur are repeatable and predictable, and are due to terrain shielding. Digital repeaters would work well in those areas because the capture effect would have less of an effect on digital. The only thing wrong with the system is that its underpowered, and increases to -14 dbc go a long way to improve the signal. Obviously, -10dbc would be better. As I stated in another post, the FM HD-2s have better coverage than most of the nighttime AM stations.

Just curious as to how you know certain stations are operating at -14dBc, and could you specifically identify them? If at your location certain HD-2s drop out at specific locations, do you find this acceptable? If the main analog related FM simply disappeared at certain locations, predictable such as the HD-2s to which you refer, would you find that to be acceptable? If the main analog FM could be increased from a common Class B at 50 kW TO 110Kw or so to overcome a drop out problem would that be an acceptable solution to this problem?

I also don't understand the comparison of FM HD-2s to night time AM. There are too many variables involved with night time AM coverage. Do the night time AM's completely drop out like the HD-2's, or do they just suffer from incredible noise but stay listenable?

Please expand on your comments.

 

[Len14043]

Just curious as to how you know certain stations are operating at -14dBc, and could you specifically identify them? If at your location certain HD-2s drop out at specific locations, do you find this acceptable? If the main analog related FM simply disappeared at certain locations, predictable such as the HD-2s to which you refer, would you find that to be acceptable? If the main analog FM could be increased from a common Class B at 50 kW TO 110Kw or so to overcome a drop out problem would that be an acceptable solution to this problem?

I also don't understand the comparison of FM HD-2s to night time AM. There are too many variables involved with night time AM coverage. Do the night time AM's completely drop out like the HD-2's, or do they just suffer from incredible noise but stay listenable?

Please expand on your comments.

RadeoEngineer,
Here is the FCC link to find out which stations either adopted HD or increased the power. Follow the link and for SERVICE, select FM DIGITAL from the drop down menu. You can also narrow down the search by State, City, etc:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_sear.htm

In my area, I know that WVXU (Cincinnati), WXEG (Dayton) and WBNS (Columbus) increased their power to -14 dbc. In the case of WVXU and WBNS, those are the best digital signals in Cincinnati and Columbus, respectively. WXEG is a low powered station in Dayton, but the digital signal does well relative to their analog signal. As far as dropouts go, an occasional dropout while traveling would be acceptable to me. This also occurs in Sat radio. If the signal dropped out continuously as in fringe areas, that would be unacceptable. I am about 17 miles from most of the Cincinnati sticks and about 30 miles from the Dayton sticks. I can receive the Cincinnati signals, as expected, with no problem, but the Dayton signals are out-of-range for indoor reception, and spotty for mobile reception.

Concerning my comparison to AM stations, most of the weak stations at 1230, 1480 and even 1530 are either severely degraded or completely buried in the co-channel noise at my location. But the HD-2s are dependable with full quieting. I know we are talking apples and steaks, but my point is this: The FM HD signals provide full quieting listening at about 17 miles (i.e. distant suburbs), while some of the AM stations are either completely buried or degraded. Lower powered AM stations can actually increase their coverage areas by simulcasting on HD-2s or HD-3s. I'm not sure what you mean regarding increasing analog power, but an FM station operating at 50KW with 4% digital injection would serve most metro areas well.

 

[RadeoEngineer]

Just curious as to how you know certain stations are operating at -14dBc, and could you specifically identify them? If at your location certain HD-2s drop out at specific locations, do you find this acceptable? If the main analog related FM simply disappeared at certain locations, predictable such as the HD-2s to which you refer, would you find that to be acceptable? If the main analog FM could be increased from a common Class B at 50 kW TO 110Kw or so to overcome a drop out problem would that be an acceptable solution to this problem?

I also don't understand the comparison of FM HD-2s to night time AM. There are too many variables involved with night time AM coverage. Do the night time AM's completely drop out like the HD-2's, or do they just suffer from incredible noise but stay listenable?

Please expand on your comments.

RadeoEngineer,
Here is the FCC link to find out which stations either adopted HD or increased the power. Follow the link and for SERVICE, select FM DIGITAL from the drop down menu. You can also narrow down the search by State, City, etc:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_sear.htm

In my area, I know that WVXU (Cincinnati), WXEG (Dayton) and WBNS (Columbus) increased their power to -14 dbc. In the case of WVXU and WBNS, those are the best digital signals in Cincinnati and Columbus, respectively. WXEG is a low powered station in Dayton, but the digital signal does well relative to their analog signal. As far as dropouts go, an occasional dropout while traveling would be acceptable to me. This also occurs in Sat radio. If the signal dropped out continuously as in fringe areas, that would be unacceptable. I am about 17 miles from most of the Cincinnati sticks and about 30 miles from the Dayton sticks. I can receive the Cincinnati signals, as expected, with no problem, but the Dayton signals are out-of-range for indoor reception, and spotty for mobile reception.

Concerning my comparison to AM stations, most of the weak stations at 1230, 1480 and even 1530 are either severely degraded or completely buried in the co-channel noise at my location. But the HD-2s are dependable with full quieting. I know we are talking apples and steaks, but my point is this: The FM HD signals provide full quieting listening at about 17 miles (i.e. distant suburbs), while some of the AM stations are either completely buried or degraded. Lower powered AM stations can actually increase their coverage areas by simulcasting on HD-2s or HD-3s. I'm not sure what you mean regarding increasing analog power, but an FM station operating at 50KW with 4% digital injection would serve most metro areas well.

I'm a little short on time as I'm going on the road in about five hours, so forgive me for not doing all of the required research, but let me shoot from the hip if you don't mind.

17 miles doesn't strike me as a wall banger for coverage, particularly given the amount of effort, expense and power required to get there. I would expect a good FM signal at 50 kW out to something like 40 or 50 miles, depending on several factors. Now if 17 miles is what you're getting after a 6dB increase in digital power, I would suggest that it's a very wasted use of RF for very little gain in coverage.

When I was giving the example of a 50kW class B suddenly becoming 110kW, I was ball parking a 4 dB increase in power. I really should have used a number more like 200 kW if we're going to talk about 6dB. Now if you want to talk about a 50kW FM using 4% injection, we're really getting into fire breathing territory with a severe penchant for interference to other stations. As you know, IBOC was originally authorized for 1%, or on a 50 kW FM 500 watts. If we're going to go to 4%, which is way above what has been authorized in the lastest attempt to keep this IBOC thing breathing, we're now looking at 2 kW of digital power. Cool. Except in a high level combined system, which most of the IBOC installations are, we're talking about a 20 kW transmitter rejecting 18 kW of power into a load that hopefully isn't in the same zip code as your bread and butter 50 kW FM analog. The power bill alone will cost you a few large per month with (ahem) how many listeners tuning in in your 17 mile radius? And this is worth what for your HD-2 comedy channel with no spots?

And then there's that troublesome issue of increasing digital power with this Rube Goldberg system also increases occupied bandwidth of your signal thus causing additional interference to your first adjacent channel neighbor. Jeez, 4% could even be a problem for your second adjacent neighbor, but I've already packed my slide rule for my trip and I don't know for sure.

I was actuallly listening to my swell Insignia pocket radio a little earlier tonight, and I still don't get the fascination with this thing they want to call IBOC which is really IBAC. It sounds just OK when it locks on an HD-1, sounds absolutely awful when it can catch an HD-2 or 3, and won't stay put on any of them with me being less than 10 miles from the transmit antennas. Of course they're all running 1% where I am, so maybe I need to call the GM's and see if I can convince them to let me upgrade them to 4%. I could use the money.