BONNEVILLE ACQUISITION OF 850kHz ?

[KFNNradioFan]

When Mom and Pops owned stations, Tx sites were moved around and upgrades made all the time.

Can you cite some specific examples of this?

Absolutely, and KVI is a great example of this 8)

http://www.kvi.com/about/4953206.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KVI

As is KRKO 8)

http://northsound1380.com/stationinfo/stationhistory/

 

[HowardMBurgers]

Your claim is completely disingenuous. Using KVI as an example, a station that has been in the same place since the 1930’s, only punctuates the fact that you have no clue. Claiming that a station which was built in the late 1930’s as an example of owners “moving their TX site around”, is as ridiculous as your original suggestion to move KHHO.

 

[KFNNradioFan]

Your claim is completely disingenuous. Using KVI as an example, a station that has been in the same place since the 1930’s, only punctuates the fact that you have no clue. Claiming that a station which was built in the late 1930’s as an example of owners “moving their TX site around”, is as ridiculous as your original suggestion to move KHHO.

It is a perfectly reasonable suggestion to move KHHO well east of its location in order for the pattern to reach more nightime listeners, w/o interference TO KOA et. al.
KTLK on radio locator as an example of what can be done just about ANYWHERE along a coast:
http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KTLK&service=AM&status=L&hours=D

The original KVI tower site was in Tacoma and has since moved.
The other web site explains the scenario with AM 1380.
I could dig up many more if you want me to, but I think anyone with some background in the biz could do the same.

Corporate radio today can't accomplish what mom and pops used to be able to do in terms of engineering.

Engineers KNOW of NUMEROUS AM upgrades that COULD be done, if there was $$$.

 

[HowardMBurgers]

KVI has always been at it's current location at the South East end of Vashon Island from day one. It was originally licensed to Tacoma, but changed it's city of license to Seattle in the 1940's with no technical changes. There was no transmitter site move as you maintain. I worked for the station as their Chief Engineer and know the history quite well.

Might I suggest that you check your facts before coming off like some sort of an expert? So far you're not for about five.

 

[bossbill]

Howard, you beat me to the punch on the transmitter site thing. Apparently some wannaby engineers get Cit of License, studio location, mixed up with transmitter sites. And the same wannabies don't understand the various constraints on transmitter site location, from FCC to FAA to local regulations to NIMBYs.

It is amusing, however, to read the posts of pontification.

I've waited five years on a pending 1140 AM application in Aberdeen, WA with nothing from the FCC. If they ever get around to granting it, I will not likely get the necessary zoning to build it, plus it won't pencil (that's an accounting term for the wannabies). If I had made the real estate commitments five years ago, I would be broke (another accounting term) by now, just waiting.

Keep the entertainment flowing.

 

[HowardMBurgers]

You're right Bill. Sometimes it's an expensive battle to get changes through the Commission, mainly due to the cost of lawyers one has to throw at them to get motion.

The average radio listening hobbyist doesn't realize, is what it takes to move or build a site, let alone AM sites. The huge real estate and permitting costs/process, (just ask Andy in Everett) NIMBYS, then equipment, insurance, construction costs, and RFI mitigatation. One doesn't just "move" an AM site as this guy is bent on believing. Add in the devaluation of AM radio right now, or for that matter ANY broadcast facility, it becomes a tough job.

And what KFNN doesn't realize, is the Commission doesn't just allow facilities licenced to a particular city, in the case Tacome, to just pack up and move because they would be better off serving another community. The commission doesn't just allow stations to leave communities because someone would rather be somewhere else.

 

[KFNNradioFan]

Howard, you beat me to the punch on the transmitter site thing. Apparently some wannaby engineers get Cit of License, studio location, mixed up with transmitter sites. And the same wannabies don't understand the various constraints on transmitter site location, from FCC to FAA to local regulations to NIMBYs.

It is amusing, however, to read the posts of pontification.

I've waited five years on a pending 1140 AM application in Aberdeen, WA with nothing from the FCC. If they ever get around to granting it, I will not likely get the necessary zoning to build it, plus it won't pencil (that's an accounting term for the wannabies). If I had made the real estate commitments five years ago, I would be broke (another accounting term) by now, just waiting.

Keep the entertainment flowing.

Hey guys don't call me a wanna be engineer who doesn't understand this stuff. I do understand all this stuff. The point is that mom and pops HAD a MUCH easier time moving COL, transmitter site locations, and making upgrades when land was cheaper, and large conglomerates weren't broke so they had money for proper engineering studies and file w/ the FCC. Try to prove me wrong. You can't. You corporate engineers can laugh at my posts, but mom and pop engineers aren't. Go talk to Don Davis senior engineer at Vanguard Media over in Albuquerque. See how he has upgraded his AM's. This business has changed thanks to the '96 Tellecommunications Act and the housing bubble.

 

[KFNNradioFan]

KVI has always been at it's current location at the South East end of Vashon Island from day one. It was originally licensed to Tacoma, but changed it's city of license to Seattle in the 1940's with no technical changes. There was no transmitter site move as you maintain. I worked for the station as their Chief Engineer and know the history quite well.

Might I suggest that you check your facts before coming off like some sort of an expert? So far you're not for about five.

I don't know you so for you to continue in this fashion is ridiculous. You gain nothing with your belittling approach.To my understanding KVI had a tower in Tacoma with initially something under 50 watts decades ago (today they are 5kW). Are you saying that the tower has always been on Vashon? Please stick to an intellectual discussion, here.

 

[bossbill]

KFNNRadioFan... I can only speak from my minimal personal broadcast experience, which dates back to 1960. Sure, land was cheaper and zoning was less restrictive, but the FCC rules were tougher. One small example: KAPA, Raymond, Washington. A man that was a Puyallup radio station owner (and a broadcast engineer) did in fact move the station's transmitter site 3 miles but forgot to tell the Commission. That landed the station a fine of $10,000 which in the 1960s was a lot of money. Same station wanted to do a dual-city ID (Raymond-South Bend). To do so we had to show that the contour properly covered both cities, and file an application. Your original post identified COL changes and studio site changes, as if they were transmitter site changes. Big big difference.

It used to be that an AM station with a directional antenna needed a First Class Radio-telephone license holder on duty. And it used to be that the station had to originate programming from within the City of License or the transmitter site at least 50% of the time.

It never has been easy to move a directional array, since so many factors come into play in determining the spacing, phasing, and power ratios. I don't understand the basis of your assertion that it used to be a lot easier to move a transmitter site. In my short 49 years in the business, I have seen a slow relaxation of FCC regulations in most every aspect.

Dunno if you could call me a 'corporate engineer'. I'm the company President, General Manager, Chief Operator, etc. Most would call me a mom/pop operator.

 

[davideduardo]

Tell you what Phoenix, if you don't post completely erroneous information as fact, I won't challenge you on them.

This poster has made erroneous statements as well as total non sequiturs of logic on numerous boards. Those posts range from misstating the number of stations in a format or the correct format for individual stations to suppositions about protection requirements, coverage and the laws of physics that defy explanation.

As suggested, were he to ask some questions and cease to use Wikipedia as his source for accurate radio data, he might be surprised by all he could learn. Woefully, so far, that is not the case.

 

[KFNNradioFan]

Are you saying that the tower has always been on Vashon? Please stick to an intellectual discussion, here.

Tell you what Phoenix, if you don't post completely erroneous information as fact, I won't challenge you on them.

Let me take that a step further, Howard:

TO KFNNRadioFan:

If you truly want to stick to an "intellectual discussion" here then don't come on this board posting the info you find from Wikipedia and the FCC as facts then act like you know everything. Ask questions. Have a discussion. Don't come in acting like a know-it-all.

IF you start doing that (and honestly I'd be REALLY surprised if you did) then you'll find people will be more receptive to your opinions.

There's a lot you can learn when you back down from having an attitude that you're intellectually superior.

Mr. Engineer, there are ALWAYS differing viewpoints for AM directional patterns. As an engineer, you have inevitably debated over the best plan. There is NOTHING wrong with coming to this board to propose a new idea, as I have several times.

As is typical of older Radio Engineers near retirement, YOU, Mr. Wolfenbarger, Mr. Eduardo, and Mr. Bergers have issues with new people entering your line of work and presenting new ideas. I don't know why, especially considering that 850kHz, 1090, and 1300 all could use some improvement to reach more listeners in rapidly growing suburban seattle.

You'll be retiring in the next few years, so why not just let the rest of propose whatever we want to on radio-info. Respond to new ideas here gracefully, from folks such as Bongwater, myself, and others, and perhaps you'll age gracefully.

 

[jmtillery]

How about if Bonneville buys 850 from Clear Channel, and moves the sports to 850, and restores KIRO News/Talk to 710kHz, and then pays for the 850 acquisition with a new Lifestyle Talk format for 18-49 on 97.3fm ???

And, boost 850kHz to 50kW day (on their 4 (5?) towers) with some sort of a Casper the Friendly Ghost pattern, pointed to Issaquah and Olympia, to protect Abbotsford BC (850) and Portland (KPAM 860).

Since this is the Seattle board, I can only assume the AM 850 you are referring to is KHHO-AM 850 Tocoma. And, if it is sports you want on KHHO, the station is already programming a sports format with Fox Sports www.foxsports850.com.

Also, it should be noted that whomever may make a bid to acquire the AM 850 frequency would acquire it from Ackerley Broadcasting and not Clear Channel Communications. I. E., Clear Channel doesn't own KHHO as you suggest. I'm not sure if you were aware of that fact or not.

 

[davideduardo]

Mr. Engineer, there are ALWAYS differing viewpoints for AM directional patterns. As an engineer, you have inevitably debated over the best plan. There is NOTHING wrong with coming to this board to propose a new idea, as I have several times.

The issue here had nothing to do with DA's, but, instead, whether 570 had always had its transmitter at the same place. As you have been told by people who actually worked at the station, it never moved.

As is typical of older Radio Engineers near retirement, YOU, Mr. Wolfenbarger, Mr. Eduardo, and Mr. Bergers have issues with new people entering your line of work and presenting new ideas.

Radio history can not be rewritten, so there are no "new ideas" here at all. And the laws of physics, including such things as propagation, ground conductivity and such, don't seem to change much, either, although I was told the earth's magnetic fields would reverse at the time of the winter solstice...

Of course, I am not a practicing engineer and havn't been for decades, but don't let little details ruin your seldom-accurate assumptions.

 

[bossbill]

"As is typical of older Radio Engineers near retirement, YOU, Mr. Wolfenbarger, Mr. Eduardo, and Mr. Bergers have issues with new people entering your line of work and presenting new ideas".

I can't speak for anyone else, but which oriface did this statement come out of?

I love new ideas; new ideas are great. I wish more young people would enter the business. But this "discussion" hasn't got anything to do with that. It has to do with FCC Rules & Regulations which must be followed, Laws of Physics which also must be followed, and questions of fact which are easily verifiable.

I do question someone's experience, knowledge, and agenda, when one uses secondary and tertiary sources for information instead of primary sources. If you question a statement, go find out for yourself. Check out technical information on radio stations directly from the FCC website. Pickup a copy of an NAB Handbook. Study up, then come up with your "new ideas".

 

[board_manager]

Some posts have been relocated to the Take It Outside board

http://boards.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=159337.msg1346287#msg1346287

 

[KFNNradioFan]

How about if Bonneville buys 850 from Clear Channel, and moves the sports to 850, and restores KIRO News/Talk to 710kHz, and then pays for the 850 acquisition with a new Lifestyle Talk format for 18-49 on 97.3fm ???

And, boost 850kHz to 50kW day (on their 4 (5?) towers) with some sort of a Casper the Friendly Ghost pattern, pointed to Issaquah and Olympia, to protect Abbotsford BC (850) and Portland (KPAM 860).

Since this is the Seattle board, I can only assume the AM 850 you are referring to is KHHO-AM 850 Tocoma. And, if it is sports you want on KHHO, the station is already programming a sports format with Fox Sports www.foxsports850.com.

Also, it should be noted that whomever may make a bid to acquire the AM 850 frequency would acquire it from Ackerley Broadcasting and not Clear Channel Communications. I. E., Clear Channel doesn't own KHHO as you suggest. I'm not sure if you were aware of that fact or not.

Yes I am aware of this - same thing with the Funky Monkey 104.9. Do you have others in the SEA-TAC market?
It is incredible what these older engineers will do to new people in the field w/ new ideas. 850 could be upgraded since it's near a seacoast. My only point is that in this recession and with media consolidation there isn't enough money like there was in the mom and pop days. I was talking with a station owner in California about this, he wants to upgrade, but doesn't have the money. Hopefully things will turn around.
Thanks.

 

[BurntOutRadio]

From the "Northwest Broadcasters" web site form a couple of days ago:
The FCC has granted voluntary assignment of licenses for KHHO AM 850 Tacoma; KJR AM 950, KJR-FM 95.7 and KUBE-FM 93.3 Seattle; and KFNK-FM 104.9 Eatonville from Ackerley Broadcasting Operations to Citicasters Licenses. The Commission also has granted voluntary transfer of control of KNBQ-FM 102.9 Centralia from Jacor Communications Company to Clear Channel Holdings.

 

[HowardMBurgers]

And this is news...how?

 

[davideduardo]

From the "Northwest Broadcasters" web site form a couple of days ago:
The FCC has granted voluntary assignment of licenses for KHHO AM 850 Tacoma; KJR AM 950, KJR-FM 95.7 and KUBE-FM 93.3 Seattle; and KFNK-FM 104.9 Eatonville from Ackerley Broadcasting Operations to Citicasters Licenses. The Commission also has granted voluntary transfer of control of KNBQ-FM 102.9 Centralia from Jacor Communications Company to Clear Channel Holdings.

Ackerly sold to Clear Channel (Citicasters) in 2001.

 

[BurntOutRadio]

And this is news...how?

I realize this is not news to you and I but Mr. Tillery above gave out some bum dope.