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Boston... Only Top 10 Market with No Full-Power Minority FMs

Thanks for your very thoughtful post, Reggie. I couldn't agree with you more. Lots of people are coming at this argument in the wrong way from both sides.

I would simply like to point out that WILD-AM consistenly pulled in strong numbers (above a 2.0 12+) relative to its very poor daytime signal prior to Radio One's purchase of 97.7 and later purchase of 1090 itself. Even with increased competition from 97.7, WILD-AM continued to consistently pull a 1.0-2.0 12+ with its classic soul format under Radio One, which is amazing considering its signal limitations.

There is a market for more R&B music on the Boston radio dial. It's just unfortunate that the way the chips have fallen, it's likely not going to happen anytime soon. The only chance I could see is possibly coming from CBS, but I think even their lower rated stations still bill pretty well.

Nonetheless, there is certainly the appetite for it as well as the demos to support it if it's done well and it's marketed well.

ReggieBeas said:
I think everybody is right! And everybody is wrong! Boy, did I cover my bases :)

Yes, it is the business of radio. It is for-profit. If a company can get an audience playing church hymns and charge top dollar for spots, they will do so. So the formats that can make the most money get on-air. But with consolidation, it's not just about making money. You have to keep making more money than you made the previous year just to keep the stock price up. Before consolidation, a private owner can make a small or medium profit and be fine. Now, when your stockholders see you only made a small or medium profit, they are screaming because they are not getting a return on their investment.

What is the definition of successful? Nash Communications was not losing money with WILD-AM. But once Radio One came along, it was nearly impossible to make even a small profit when an AM daytimer is going against a FM signal, no matter how bad that signal was. Radio One was not losing money with Hot 97.7. They just were not making the type of money Jam'n or Kiss made. With losing close to $300 million dollars in value on their property in Los Angeles, Radio One had to make moves, and Entercom came in with a sweetheart deal. $30 million for the frequency and stick when they paid 10 originally? That's a no-brainer. But Radio One could have continued to make money in Boston doing Urban radio, just not goo-gobs of money.

(BTW, what did that $30 million get Entercom? WAAF has declined EVERY book since they bought 97.7 and are at their lowest ratings in recent memory.)

Urban radio does have a place, and can be successful in Boston. But none of the major players in Boston can make the type of return on their investment to keep the stock prices going up, even if they do turn a profit. Plus the top companies here either don't have a strong track record in Urban programming (Greater Media, Entercom) or they don't have an underperforming station that could benefit, with the correct business plan, to successfully bring a profitable Urban station to the market that bills more than they are now (Clear Channel, CBS).

And it's very interesting that Neanderpaul says that there is no place for "race-based" programming. Every station has demographic-based programming, and race is just one part of it. "Urban" is just a label that makes it easier for sales people to define their station to their clients, just like "Oldies," "Country," "Soft Rock," and the like. And for those that don't know, in the early 80s there was a move away from the term "Black" to "Urban" precisely because stations playing R&B, funk, soul and disco wanted advertisers to understand that more than black people listened to their stations (to little effect, unfortunately). But Urban radio was, and good stations continue to be, in that middle ground between music-based programming and language-based programming. Traditional Urban radio has been about being involved in, being a part of, and reflecting the community to which it broadcasts, which most language-based programming does. This doesn't mean it is excluding other people from listening, but those other people are not the focus of the station.

Perfect example: I am an African-American male. I listened to WBCN in the 90s because I liked the personalities. But it was clear that the station was formated for young white males, from the programming to the personalities to the types of commercials that were on the air. I would hear rock music, and the personalities would talk about Fanueil Hall and Newbury Street, Mama Kin's and Great Woods, Roger Clemens, Drew Bledsoe, Larry Bird and Cam Neely, and I appreciated their takes (that includes Nik Carter, an African-American DJ on BCN who understood who his target audience was… and was not). But when I wanted to hear about Mattapan Square and Washington Park, The Paramount and Wally's, Mo Vaughn, Willie McGinest, Robert Parish and Anson Carter, plus listen to some good R&B and Hip-Hop, I went to WILD-AM.

This has nothing to do with racism! It has everything to do with knowing what to expect when you turn to a radio station. It's like going to Burger King and asking for a Big Mac. Burger King caters to people who like flame-broiled burgers. Urban stations cater to people who like R&B and Hip-Hop. Every station has a target demographic that its programming, personalities and promotions caters to. Show me a station that is all things to all people, and I'll show you a failed station that is nothing to nobody!

Now after writing all of this… LOL maybe the choice of words was wrong. Would it be more palatable if, instead of saying "Boston... Only Top 10 Market with No Full-Power Minority FMs," it reads instead "Boston... Only Top 10 Market with No Full-Power FMs that cater to people who want to listen to a wider range of R&B, Hip-Hop and Dancehall Reggae music than Jam'n 94.5 provides?"
 
Ciao said:
What is "Boston born"? We have a generation of black and Hispanic youth in our city was born here, not abroad. You can add Cambridge, Brockton, Lawrence, and Worcester and others to that list.

Once again, you make it about skin pigment. My statement was specifically "non-Boston-born cultures" That means people not born there. It had nothing to do with race at all. Which solidly illustrates my point. You're not advocating multi-national programming. You're advocating segregative programming based upon skin pigment.

I hate the concept. I believe we'll never get past skin color until we stop considering it.

Thanks for making my point for me.

All radio should be better at representing the entire population of the market it serves.

Funny how there's never an argument from the Irish in Southie about how there's no Gaelic programming. And the Polish-American Citizens Club in Dorchester never seems to wonder why they have no radio outlet. Where are the Upham's Corner Hmong? Why don't they have their own station? How about the Ukranians in Neponset?

Still believe it's not about skin pigment? You're lying. You know it.

I stand by my assertion. Nobody cares about "imported" cultures, or international programming. We're talking about "radio for off-white people." Which is an insult to everyone of any race. Obviously, there have been multiple market studies done. And obviously the market doesn't exist at a level high enough for any company to expend the resources.

The cost outweighs the potential for profit. And until that changes, you'll never hear whatever format you think isn't being presented properly.

And why Boston is continually regarded as racist. And yeah...the fact that there's no "real" Urban station does help support the stereotype.

Stereotypes exist because they're true.
 
ReggieBeas said:
I think everybody is right! And everybody is wrong! Boy, did I cover my bases :)

Yes, it is the business of radio. It is for-profit. If a company can get an audience playing church hymns and charge top dollar for spots, they will do so. So the formats that can make the most money get on-air. But with consolidation, it's not just about making money. You have to keep making more money than you made the previous year just to keep the stock price up. Before consolidation, a private owner can make a small or medium profit and be fine. Now, when your stockholders see you only made a small or medium profit, they are screaming because they are not getting a return on their investment.

What is the definition of successful? Nash Communications was not losing money with WILD-AM. But once Radio One came along, it was nearly impossible to make even a small profit when an AM daytimer is going against a FM signal, no matter how bad that signal was. Radio One was not losing money with Hot 97.7. They just were not making the type of money Jam'n or Kiss made. With losing close to $300 million dollars in value on their property in Los Angeles, Radio One had to make moves, and Entercom came in with a sweetheart deal. $30 million for the frequency and stick when they paid 10 originally? That's a no-brainer. But Radio One could have continued to make money in Boston doing Urban radio, just not goo-gobs of money.

(BTW, what did that $30 million get Entercom? WAAF has declined EVERY book since they bought 97.7 and are at their lowest ratings in recent memory.)

Urban radio does have a place, and can be successful in Boston. But none of the major players in Boston can make the type of return on their investment to keep the stock prices going up, even if they do turn a profit. Plus the top companies here either don't have a strong track record in Urban programming (Greater Media, Entercom) or they don't have an underperforming station that could benefit, with the correct business plan, to successfully bring a profitable Urban station to the market that bills more than they are now (Clear Channel, CBS).

And it's very interesting that Neanderpaul says that there is no place for "race-based" programming. Every station has demographic-based programming, and race is just one part of it. "Urban" is just a label that makes it easier for sales people to define their station to their clients, just like "Oldies," "Country," "Soft Rock," and the like. And for those that don't know, in the early 80s there was a move away from the term "Black" to "Urban" precisely because stations playing R&B, funk, soul and disco wanted advertisers to understand that more than black people listened to their stations (to little effect, unfortunately). But Urban radio was, and good stations continue to be, in that middle ground between music-based programming and language-based programming. Traditional Urban radio has been about being involved in, being a part of, and reflecting the community to which it broadcasts, which most language-based programming does. This doesn't mean it is excluding other people from listening, but those other people are not the focus of the station.

Perfect example: I am an African-American male. I listened to WBCN in the 90s because I liked the personalities. But it was clear that the station was formated for young white males, from the programming to the personalities to the types of commercials that were on the air. I would hear rock music, and the personalities would talk about Fanueil Hall and Newbury Street, Mama Kin's and Great Woods, Roger Clemens, Drew Bledsoe, Larry Bird and Cam Neely, and I appreciated their takes (that includes Nik Carter, an African-American DJ on BCN who understood who his target audience was… and was not). But when I wanted to hear about Mattapan Square and Washington Park, The Paramount and Wally's, Mo Vaughn, Willie McGinest, Robert Parish and Anson Carter, plus listen to some good R&B and Hip-Hop, I went to WILD-AM.

This has nothing to do with racism! It has everything to do with knowing what to expect when you turn to a radio station. It's like going to Burger King and asking for a Big Mac. Burger King caters to people who like flame-broiled burgers. Urban stations cater to people who like R&B and Hip-Hop. Every station has a target demographic that its programming, personalities and promotions caters to. Show me a station that is all things to all people, and I'll show you a failed station that is nothing to nobody!

Now after writing all of this… LOL maybe the choice of words was wrong. Would it be more palatable if, instead of saying "Boston... Only Top 10 Market with No Full-Power Minority FMs," it reads instead "Boston... Only Top 10 Market with No Full-Power FMs that cater to people who want to listen to a wider range of R&B, Hip-Hop and Dancehall Reggae music than Jam'n 94.5 provides?"

Good to see you active on the board Reggie. Finally, someone who has inside knowledge about Urban Programming and Radio-One's inability to connect with the listeners. I'm not in the industry, but I have always been an advocate of urban music within Boston and I honestly think that Emmis or CBS could actually give Jamn a run for their money. I don't understand, what is so hard about programming a station exactly like Kiss FM NY? I don't buy the different demographics thing, because for years most African-Americans-including myself, have always commented on the city having a station likened to Kiss or Hot 97, but we tend to get 1/2 a$$ed stations like 94.5, and the close but no cigar 97.7. I also think the beginning of the end happened when the original GM-Tom Calcocci, who seemed to understand the market was pushed aside for Steve Gousby, but I'm interested in everyone's thoughts.
 
Hey Pause, if you want to hear a great Urban station, check out 94.3 FM WYBC the next time you're in New Haven or driving down to NY.

It's owned by Yale, Cox does it's sales. It's frequently the number one station in the market, and New Haven has similar demographics to Boston. Imagine if one of our universities were to program a station like Yale does with WYBC.
 
Ciao said:
Hey Pause, if you want to hear a great Urban station, check out 94.3 FM WYBC the next time you're in New Haven or driving down to NY.

It's owned by Yale, Cox does it's sales. It's frequently the number one station in the market, and New Haven has similar demographics to Boston. Imagine if one of our universities were to program a station like Yale does with WYBC.


[/quote

Ciao, WYBC is among my presets when hitting 95 South to what I consider the promised land when it comes to Urban Radio, and just a better attitude in general-as far as music. My presets are as follows - 93.7, 94.3, 98.7, 107.5, 97.1, 105.1, Power 99, 103.9 etc until I hit Southern Virginia where drive-wise I am unfamiliar with. It's funny, Boston has this stigma of being too white (Joe Six Pack) as far as attitude, yet places such as Portland and Seattle (Joe Six Pack being in the minority) avoid the accusations of being racist. I know I'll piss people off, but if the prevailing attitudes of Cambridge were the norm, I think the stigma of the city, and the state would be quite different in the eyes of the rest of the nation.
 
You can't tell me that Boston has fewer potential listeners for "urban" music than Milwaukee does, can you? Because Milwaukee has an urban contemporary (WKKV, V-100.7) and an urban AC (WJMR, Jammin' 98.3). Both are live and local all day - in a market that is considered to be one of the ultimate "rock" markets.

It's the ownership at issue here. WKKV is owned by Clear Channel and WJMR by a local group. The ownership structure of Boston's FM stations tends to support the status quo more than any of the demographic or perception issues discussed above. Greater Media, Entercom and Nassau just don't do urban. Clear Channel is happy with what they have in Boston. CBS Radio probably is too.

By the way, listing WBOS' "Disco 92.9" days as some ersatz example of why "urban" doesn't work in Boston is one of the most absurd things I have read in a while. Where do I begin: that was 30 years ago, disco isn't exactly soul/R&B music, the presentation was different, etc, etc. And, Star was another bad example. It was always an AC-leaning hybrid - it was not "urban" at all.

The only true example was the signal-challenged and poorly programmed WILD-FM which ended up being part of Radio One's fire sale. As bad as it was, it still did better than any other format on that frequency (Mikey is right about that). But its demise was (again) an issue of ownership and not of format viability. Once Entercom bought it, urban was done here because Entercom Boston can't program an urban AC any better than they can overhaul a Porsche 911! So, they dumped WAAF on 97.7 and forgot about it.
 
Several posters have said Entercom "does not do urban." Just to keep things on the up and up, that is not true. Entercom's WJMH (hip hop) and WQMG (urban AC) are often the two top rated stations in Greensboro/Winston Salem, a top 50 market. Both stations have a substantial white audience, if that means anything. Considering Entercom's lack of success with 97.7 as a repeater for WAAF, maybe they should consider returning 97.7 to urban--they do have the expertise...
 
Is it possible that the reason why there isn't an urban station in Boston is because a larger than normal percentage of white people in Boston, as compared with other cities with similar demographics, don't listen to urban?
 
fortmill said:
Considering Entercom's lack of success with 97.7 as a repeater for WAAF, maybe they should consider returning 97.7 to urban--they do have the expertise...

Does that repeater help their billing? If so, they have minimal overhead and (if) it helps to add to the bottom line, how is it not successful?
 
fortmill said:
Several posters have said Entercom "does not do urban." Just to keep things on the up and up, that is not true. Entercom's WJMH (hip hop) and WQMG (urban AC) are often the two top rated stations in Greensboro/Winston Salem, a top 50 market. Both stations have a substantial white audience, if that means anything. Considering Entercom's lack of success with 97.7 as a repeater for WAAF, maybe they should consider returning 97.7 to urban--they do have the expertise...
They( WJMH & WQMG ) was successful Urban stations, long before Entercom Purchase those stations . ( Act. 1996 Ruin The Radio )
 
fortmill said:
Several posters have said Entercom "does not do urban." Just to keep things on the up and up, that is not true. Entercom's WJMH (hip hop) and WQMG (urban AC) are often the two top rated stations in Greensboro/Winston Salem, a top 50 market. Both stations have a substantial white audience, if that means anything. Considering Entercom's lack of success with 97.7 as a repeater for WAAF, maybe they should consider returning 97.7 to urban--they do have the expertise...

If I'm not mistaken, those stations represent properties that had those formats prior to their acquisition by Entercom. But, my exact quote had to do with Entercom Boston - which surely does not seem willing or able to do this.
 
Finn said:
Is it possible that the reason why there isn't an urban station in Boston is because a larger than normal percentage of white people in Boston, as compared with other cities with similar demographics, don't listen to urban?
Is it possible that the reason why there isn't an urban station in Boston is because there is very little local radio ownership, and all these "Out-Of-Town owners "still believe Boston is still stuck in the Bussing years . 2008 alot of people outside of The Boston Area still believe Boston is a Racist city , So if a low performing Rock format ( 92.9,104.1 ) flip to Urban A/C, It may start a riot . Sound so stupid, but Boston still have That Racist Tag on the City . If you dont believe Boston still have the Racist Tag , Why was Kevin Garnett ask, " Is Boston a Racist City" , when he sign the deal with the Celtics ? Local radio Ownership, are being Purchase Out , or Kick out of American Radio Ownership . Only hope for more Formats on the radio , All these lame big time Radio owners go Bankrupt, and have to sell back to local ownership . Act 0f 1996 Killed the Radio ! Urban Radio is Gone ( From Boston ) , On air personnel are next on the hit list ( 93.7,92.9 and that Sh-- on 1090 ) .
 
If I'm not mistaken, those stations represent properties that had those formats prior to their acquisition by Entercom. But, my exact quote had to do with Entercom Boston - which surely does not seem willing or able to do this.
[/quote]

Apparently Entercom Boston is not willing or able to take one of their Boston stations urban, which is a shame since I love urban radio. WQMG Greensboro is truly one of America's heritage Urban AC stations and it sounds like it, a truly great station, but it never reached it's current high ratings until it finally got a great 100K signal--I don't know if Entercom was responsible for that or not. But Entercom owns another Urban AC in Norfolk/Hampton Roads which is also rated #1. In the case of WVKL, Entercom flipped this station from an under-performing oldies format to UAC and brought it to number one fairly quickly. Of course, 97.7 will never rank #1 in Boston as an urban, but maybe they should adjust their attitude and bring up a few of their people up from Greensboro or Hampton Roads to help with the switch. Just an idea...
 
. 2008 alot of people outside of The Boston Area still believe Boston is a Racist city ,

Your source for that is what, exactly?



So if a low performing Rock format ( 92.9,104.1 ) flip to Urban A/C, It may start a riot.

That's ridiculous. I won't even dignify that type of racist statement with a response.
 
NHRadio said:
. 2008 alot of people outside of The Boston Area still believe Boston is a Racist city ,

Your source for that is what, exactly?


So if a low performing Rock format ( 92.9,104.1 ) flip to Urban A/C, It may start a riot.

That's ridiculous. I won't even dignify that type of racist statement with a response.

Will you concede that race is a third-rail issue here in Boston and that lots of people have very thin skin around the issue?

Seems to me that it is conceivable that programming is different in Boston than in other areas because of the sensitivities around the issue..
 
Finn said:
NHRadio said:
. 2008 alot of people outside of The Boston Area still believe Boston is a Racist city ,

Your source for that is what, exactly?


So if a low performing Rock format ( 92.9,104.1 ) flip to Urban A/C, It may start a riot.

That's ridiculous. I won't even dignify that type of racist statement with a response.

Will you concede that race is a third-rail issue here in Boston and that lots of people have very thin skin around the issue?

Seems to me that it is conceivable that programming is different in Boston than in other areas because of the sensitivities around the issue..


Finn, I will concede that a relatively small number of people have extremely thin skin as regards to race in Boston, but do not feel racism plays a part in radio format decisions, which are decided based on potential profits alone. In my opinion, most of the city has moved on but there are always people who believe there is some giant racial conspiracy against (fill in name of race here). It's a shame, really...all that energy could be put to much greater use.
 
Why must this issue be about race anyhow? It's about programming. I'm as white as it gets and I enjoy "urban" radio - I've always liked the music. Yes, I like oldies, pop and rock too - but R&B is a huge genre of music that's not represented for Boston area residents.

Despite the demographics of the area, R&B music has been historically well represented in Boston. Although it certainly draws heavily upon black audiences, R&B music appeals to others across racial lines (unlike "Spanish" formats). This lack of format diversity in Boston really kicked into overdrive during consolidation in the late 1990's. Limited signals owned by a limited number of entities. I maintain that THIS is the problem and not some inherent racism or bias against the music. Those days are long, long gone and there's no need to resurrect them here.

On the other hand, this may relate to out of town corporate attitudes (stereotypes) on the ownership level about listening habits in this market. Which is wrong.

I wonder when someone will figure out that the rock audience (which is steady at best) is being divided into thinner and thinner slices while a lot of people are resigned to listening to Kiss and Jamn (who both clean up). The same cannot be said for WAAF, WBCN or any of the other rockers in this town. All are also-rans, ratingswise. This is the part that I truly don't get because the writing is on the wall in fluorescent spray paint. Program something different and the ratings (and $) will follow. The "new" format at 92.9 is endemic of what's wrong here.

It would be nice if listeners in metro Boston had the option to listen to something other than rock or light pop! ::)
 
NHRadio said:
. 2008 alot of people outside of The Boston Area still believe Boston is a Racist city ,

Your source for that is what, exactly?
I travel alot , around this great country . When I tell people that Im from Boston They alway say " That City Up South " or " How can you ( Black man ) live in a Racist city , dont you want to move " . Again , Celtics Kevin Garnett was ask , is Boston a racist city ? Barry ( Fake Big Head ) Bonds said Boston is a Racist city , Until he visit Boston and then change his statement , and said Boston is not a Racist City . Alot Of People outside of New England, still have that image , that Boston is a racist city . I been ask about the bussing Years , Charles Stuart ( Yes, I was shake down by the Cops , 2 times in Mission Hill ),and Former Celtics Dee Brown ( a light skin black rob a Bank, and The cops took down Dee Brown , whom is dark skin Black ). Boston Race Image may even get worst , Ice Cube ( Rap Artist ) Forthcoming CD , has a picture of a White man , killing a Black man , with The American Flag Pole ( That happen many years ago Downtown Boston ) . I live in Boston Area all of my life ,In My Opinion, Boston is not different from rest of America , when it come to race . I dont understand , why when something racist happen in Boston , It stick to Boston , But when it Happen in New York( or somewhere else) , some how New York shake it Off .


So if a low performing Rock format ( 92.9,104.1 ) flip to Urban A/C, It may start a riot.

That's ridiculous. I won't even dignify that type of racist statement with a response.
My Point is , There very little local Radio ownership in Boston . All these Out of Town Boston Radio Owners, may believe what has been said about Boston ( Like I said , It will be so stupid ). WFNX has been trash on this board alot , But I wish Nash ( Former Owner of AM 1090 WILD ) had The same passion for the music and Radio station ,and the folks they serve ,like The WFNX owner . There was a guy( Local Radio Owner ) from Mashfield(95.9 ??? ), on Chronicle ( Ch 5 ) and he said He was offered Millions for his station , that can make his family all set for life . He said that his station was always a family owned business , He said he dont care how much millions he can get for his station , he just cant sell it off . Good for him !
 
Fast forward four years.......

We are still in the same situation with no (Legal) Urban station in Boston. I can't understand why this is.

Are the big corporations afraid to take a chance?

It's been discussed on another thread that perhaps WTKK would be a good candidate to try Urban programming. Look at their ratings on an election year.

Or maybe Clear Channel could buy 890 WAMG and put an Urban station there. I think it would be profitable especially on WTKK.

Look at WDAS in Philadelphia. I know that they have a larger Black ratio, but a lot of Whites like Soul/R&B.
 
How many times does it need to be explained? MONEY. The demographics just do not work. This is why NYC has no Country signal.


Jimmy128 said:
Fast forward four years.......

We are still in the same situation with no (Legal) Urban station in Boston. I can't understand why this is.
 
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