Boston's WBZ in HD, and you have to wonder why?

[KB1OKL]

I wonder how much of their primary listening area they have lost because of HD? They used to boom into Dallas - no more after they started HD.

They don't sell Dallas. All they care about is Boston and the immediate 35 miles radius.

I live approx 50 miles from Hull and reception of that station sure isn't what it used to be and it sounds terrible now too, grainy and weak. It's IBOC hash sidebands sure are strong here though, kind of ironic isn't it? Kind of sounds like it's half imploded upon itself. Even my father who knows nothing about IBOC and has never heard of it complained to me a while ago about how bad it's reception had gotten on his clock radio. He used to listen to it every night while in bed, can't do it anymore. He's 79, probably about the median age of the average WBZ listener.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

They don't sell Dallas. All they care about is Boston and the immediate 35 miles radius.

But - if they are weaker in Dallas, that also translates to being weaker in the immediate 35 mile radius. So they are losing marginal radios in marginal reception scenarios such as offices within that 35 mile radius. Courtesy of IBOC.

 

[Savage]

BTW, Scott, there exists NO power level sufficient to overcome the WBZ-HD hash. During the experimental period we've cranked up WYSL to day mode at night, 20kw 4-towers, sending the equivalent of almost 50kw NDA over Rochester. Even that doesn't overcome the steady-state harmonic-rich digital noise.

There's a reason Martin Stabbert turned off his HD at night at Citadel. It's because even a full 50kw locally doesn't overcome HD noise. And those were incoming NONDIRECTIONAL HD signals. It's exponentially worse with a DA that's aimed at the victim station radiating the equivalent of 4100 mv, as is the case with WBZ-HD.

So the what-if scenario you posit doesn't accomplish anything. I think the HD stations should have to elect either turn off the IBOC at sunset or drop your power at night. They can't have it both ways.

 

[ve3jf]

BTW, Scott, there exists NO power level sufficient to overcome the WBZ-HD hash. During the experimental period we've cranked up WYSL to day mode at night, 20kw 4-towers, sending the equivalent of almost 50kw NDA over Rochester. Even that doesn't overcome the steady-state harmonic-rich digital noise.

There's a reason Martin Stabbert turned off his HD at night at Citadel. It's because even a full 50kw locally doesn't overcome HD noise. And those were incoming NONDIRECTIONAL HD signals. It's exponentially worse with a DA that's aimed at the victim station radiating the equivalent of 4100 mv, as is the case with WBZ-HD.

So the what-if scenario you posit doesn't accomplish anything. I think the HD stations should have to elect either turn off the IBOC at sunset or drop your power at night. They can't have it both ways.

There's an exception to your rule. Apparently WOR is getting so battered by a co-channel Cuban station that they don't feel much pain from the HD buzz emanating from first adjacents WLW and WGN. Pity, eh?

 

[KB1OKL]

BTW, Scott, there exists NO power level sufficient to overcome the WBZ-HD hash. During the experimental period we've cranked up WYSL to day mode at night, 20kw 4-towers, sending the equivalent of almost 50kw NDA over Rochester. Even that doesn't overcome the steady-state harmonic-rich digital noise.

There's a reason Martin Stabbert turned off his HD at night at Citadel. It's because even a full 50kw locally doesn't overcome HD noise. And those were incoming NONDIRECTIONAL HD signals. It's exponentially worse with a DA that's aimed at the victim station radiating the equivalent of 4100 mv, as is the case with WBZ-HD.

So the what-if scenario you posit doesn't accomplish anything. I think the HD stations should have to elect either turn off the IBOC at sunset or drop your power at night. They can't have it both ways.

There's an exception to your rule. Apparently WOR is getting so battered by a co-channel Cuban station that they don't feel much pain from the HD buzz emanating from first adjacents WLW and WGN. Pity, eh?

I don't believe it, I live about 200 miles North of WOR and to get SS on 710 i have to phase out WOR which of course changes all the time and the SS is very weak, there is nothing different about the Cuban under WOR. I think it's a ruse to try to garner sympathy and divert attention away from it's noisy IBOC that jams the whole east coast from 695 to 725.

 

[ve3jf]

I don't believe it, I live about 200 miles North of WOR and to get SS on 710 i have to phase out WOR which of course changes all the time and the SS is very weak, there is nothing different about the Cuban under WOR. I think it's a ruse to try to garner sympathy and divert attention away from it's noisy IBOC that jams the whole east coast from 695 to 725.

I just checked 710 here (about 325 miles north of WOR), and the Cuban is very noticeable under them - in fact, nearly equal on peaks. Lots of IBOC fuzz from 700 and 720 too, but only the Cuban would be recognized by most listeners as interference. Of course, neither of us is in WOR's main lobe, so it's hard to say what the actual targeted listeners are experiencing.

 

[TheBigA]

They don't sell Dallas. All they care about is Boston and the immediate 35 miles radius.

But - if they are weaker in Dallas, that also translates to being weaker in the immediate 35 mile radius. So they are losing marginal radios in marginal reception scenarios such as offices within that 35 mile radius. Courtesy of IBOC.

I really don't know that we can draw that conclusion.

 

[Savage]

Tom Ray and Buckley knowingly unleashed a destructive hybrid digital-analog system on the industry in full knowledge that the adjacent-channel COFDM carriers would cause serious problems for other broadcasters. Mr. Ray and his iBiquity colleagues chose not to insist on meaningful interference mitigation as their contingent lobbied for HD Radio with the FCC. He even took the extraordinary step of openly taunting stations who objected as IBOC-at-night rolled out, and has disparaged those with legitimate concerns as cranks and has dismissed them using the worn-out IBOC insult, "naysayers."

There has been a tendency on this board to treat Mr. Ray with much deference, because apparently on a personal level he is quite likeable. That well may be; I've never met him, though we have had several e-mail exchanges. But he and WOR get no sympathy from me over their Cuban problems. Pardon me, but the facts that he regards himself as a trendsetting innovator and is an engineering executive with a company with a few major properties don't impress me a bit. He will get no royalty treatment from me. You get the respect you earn from your deeds and your attitudes towards others, particularly those with less power (literally in this case) than you.

As Lennon sang, "instant karma's gonna get you." On infrequent occasions, justice is swift. Perhaps that is the case with WOR and the Cubans.

 

[KB1OKL]

I don't believe it, I live about 200 miles North of WOR and to get SS on 710 i have to phase out WOR which of course changes all the time and the SS is very weak, there is nothing different about the Cuban under WOR. I think it's a ruse to try to garner sympathy and divert attention away from it's noisy IBOC that jams the whole east coast from 695 to 725.

I just checked 710 here (about 325 miles north of WOR), and the Cuban is very noticeable under them - in fact, nearly equal on peaks. Lots of IBOC fuzz from 700 and 720 too, but only the Cuban would be recognized by most listeners as interference. Of course, neither of us is in WOR's main lobe, so it's hard to say what the actual targeted listeners are experiencing.

Actually I hope you're right, would be a pity. I can think of a few other NY iBlock iBlasters that we should alert the Cubans about too, like WFAN and WINS. They all pollute the airwaves with iBlock. WOR iBlasts in here every night like a local, maybe that's why I have a hard time hearing the Cuban underneath them. Yes, instant Karma's going to get you.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I really don't know that we can draw that conclusion.

Hel-LO!!!! Look at the post next to mine. Unknown to me, someone posted about that very issue! WBZ really IS weaker than it used to be!!!

 

[TheBigA]

Hel-LO!!!! Look at the post next to mine. Unknown to me, someone posted about that very issue! WBZ really IS weaker than it used to be!!!

And you believe him? Have you never read his posts before? Without any signal strength readings or unbiased statistics? You are gullable.

 

[Tom Wells]

Gullible? Anyone who could believe that digital CODFM signals in the AM band are not going to cause interference to the host signal,
let alone adjacents, is gullible.

And to advance such a method as an improvement is an outright lie.
No radio engineers are fooled by this, but then the FCC doesn't seem to have any of those on staff anymore,
or they were bought out by ibiquity. There can be no other good explanation, unless the FCC intends to kill off AM entirely.

I could hear the hiss way back in the 90's when I read the white papers. And it sounds just like I knew it would.
Except the HD AM decode does not sound nearly good enough to waste 50khz on.

It is a failure in terms of operating efficiency. Way too much overhead for so very little data throughput.
The noise is equally bad whether the audio is 100% or 0%.

And ALL AMs using HD sound weaker in analog, even though the carrier power may still be the same.
They dare not modulate to +125% anymore, lest a brief carrier dropout cause the digital to lose lock.
So they do all sound weaker, because there's just not as much audio anymore. If you need a field strength meter to
confirm this, you are ingnoring the evidence of your ears, or have amazingly bad radios.

So much noise and interference even for a signal with no audio?

 

[KB1OKL]

Hel-LO!!!! Look at the post next to mine. Unknown to me, someone posted about that very issue! WBZ really IS weaker than it used to be!!!

And you believe him? Have you never read his posts before? Without any signal strength readings or unbiased statistics? You are gullable.

I don't need signal strength readings, why would I check the signal strength of a station that is 50 miles east of me over a period of years pre-IBOC and post? You do realize that signal strength has many variables anyway and unless repeated many times under controlled conditions are meaningless, correct? It is weaker than it used to be and the audio now sucks. I can hear it all the time if I want to. I don't appreciate your insinuated character assassination either, very easy for you pro-IBOC'ers to character assassinate, why is that? Is it easier than admitting HD is an utter failure on all fronts? And don't give me that BS that you're not pro-IBOC, it drips off you, in fact you remind me of someone who hasn't posted here for a while.

 

[KB1OKL]

I don't believe it, I live about 200 miles North of WOR and to get SS on 710 i have to phase out WOR which of course changes all the time and the SS is very weak, there is nothing different about the Cuban under WOR. I think it's a ruse to try to garner sympathy and divert attention away from it's noisy IBOC that jams the whole east coast from 695 to 725.

I just checked 710 here (about 325 miles north of WOR), and the Cuban is very noticeable under them - in fact, nearly equal on peaks. Lots of IBOC fuzz from 700 and 720 too, but only the Cuban would be recognized by most listeners as interference. Of course, neither of us is in WOR's main lobe, so it's hard to say what the actual targeted listeners are experiencing.

The general consensus amongst most Fla Dxers is that this Cuban is putting out about 50 KW, no more.

 

[TheBigA]

Simple question: If WBZ's signal is so much weaker within their target market, why has it not affected their ratings? They are #1 12+ in Boston, and had a huge increase during the summer, giving them their best book in years.

This is the only information their sales department needs to sell the audience to advertisers. I suspect if IBOC had hurt their ratings, they would drop it in a second.

Either people in Boston are stupid (as a Yankees fan I might agree), or the signal strength has not been affected in their primary coverage area.

 

[KB1OKL]

Simple question: If WBZ's signal is so much weaker within their target market, why has it not affected their ratings? They are #1 12+ in Boston, and had a huge increase during the summer, giving them their best book in years.

This is the only information their sales department needs to sell the audience to advertisers. I suspect if IBOC had hurt their ratings, they would drop it in a second.

Either people in Boston are stupid (as a Yankees fan I might agree), or the signal strength has not been affected in their primary coverage area.

Yankee fans are subhuman as the rest of the country knows anyway ;D and WBZ is an institution here in MA for many people and is the only big local 24 hr AM station, their core audience who are very loyal will listen no matter how badly they sound, the old people who have been listening to them in the kitchen for 60 years with their coffee are not going to change and have probably lost half their hearing anyway, they'll blame their radio or the AM band in general rather than a technology which they've never heard of which WBZ very rarely even mentions and then only as an aside. Fact: Their sound has gotten more distorted and grainy and their signal around here is much more weak except for their hissy, whooshy, IBOC sidebands, and as far as signal strength readings go, again I will quote Bob Dylan "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind's blowing"

 

[Tom Wells]

Simple question: If WBZ's signal is so much weaker within their target market, why has it not affected their ratings? They are #1 12+ in Boston, and had a huge increase during the summer, giving them their best book in years.

This is the only information their sales department needs to sell the audience to advertisers. I suspect if IBOC had hurt their ratings, they would drop it in a second.

Either people in Boston are stupid (as a Yankees fan I might agree), or the signal strength has not been affected in their primary coverage area.

You are looking at sales and ratings to judge the whether or not pollution in the product is detrimental?
This is so cavalier I can't believe you are serious.

That's the same method radio has been using for 25 years to cheapen the product.
The frog-in-hot-water concept applies here.
"It's only a little worse, no one will notice."
Most people just figure there's more noise in their local area or something's wrong with their radio.
Just as they may accept snow in a TV picture, but figure there's nothing they can do about, they accept the new interference on AM.
Most of them have no idea the station is shooting itself in the foot.


Again, the signal strength is unchanged, but the demodulated audio is weak and flat due to less modulation.
Professionals should not let marketing people pull the wool over their eyes.

Time to start adding chalk and water into milk again.
It looks great, and the milk goes a lot farther. No one will notice.
Sawdust in bread is also another wonderful adulterant.

While we're at it, let's legalize prostitution and use the money to fund schools, they'll be happy, nevermind where the
money came from.

I can only pray that some product you enjoy is weakened, cheapened, adulterated, or polluted in an officially approved manner.

 

[Savage]

Yeah, Tom, and to boot: let's hope it's something he really NEEDS, not just enjoys, and that the powers that be adulterate it in a harmful way without advising him. BTW, you're wasting your time and bandwidth. He's just another pro-IBOC weenie who comes here to get in everyone's face for the sake of arguing. After all he protests all the time he "doesn't care one way or the other." Guess that explains his 200+ posts.

FWIW an internal source within WBZ advises us that the management is, and has been, quite concerned about HD interference from co-owned KDKA in key parts of the western Beantown metro which get quite a few Arbitron diaries. So maybe summer worked out for them but they're worried about the winter when skywave affects key dayparts. This was a key factor in delaying the launch of HD on KDKA (along with their own antenna problems.) Of course if WBZ takes a dump in the fall and winter IBOC apologists will just blame it on something else. The truth is there's no way to prove it one way or the other.

 

[TheBigA]

You are looking at sales and ratings to judge the whether or not pollution in the product is detrimental?

That's not the issue. Clearly you're more bothered by something than the station's audience.

If WBZ's listenership is not hurt by the changes caused by IBOC, then it doesn't matter to the station.

I can only pray that some product you enjoy is weakened, cheapened, adulterated, or polluted in an officially approved manner.

Oh pleeze...just about every product has been changed, from the octane in gasoline to the sugar in cookies, all apporved by our government. Whatever happened to steel bumpers on cars? Don't act like such a baby.

 

[TheBigA]

He's just another pro-IBOC weenie who comes here to get in everyone's face for the sake of arguing. After all he protests all the time he "doesn't care one way or the other." Guess that explains his 200+ posts.

Funny how you keep shifting that number. To date I've posted less than 100 messages on this subject. Shall we compare that to YOU?

I haven't come here to argue, but simply ask questions that you can't answer.

Face the facts: WBZ is doing something that should affect the size of their audience, and yet they still listen. How can that be?