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Bulletin to watch: CBS-FM days from switching back to OLDIES!
- Thread starter oaktree
- Start date
KevinFodor said:
Gee, so do I.
But the agencies don't drive this stuff. Don't blame them. The clients call the shots. The days when agencies typically had guts (or reason) to stand up to their clients are as long, long gone.
In my own business, the idea is find out what the customer wants and give it to him (or her). Couldn't be more simple.
That's the basic dynamic in the advertising business. If the lion's share of marcom dollars in a market are aimed at a certain demographic, then my obligation is to go out and attract/keep the demo that attracts the business, period. If the buyers are overlooking a segment that may have comparable or greater value, that's their problem....why should I make it mine?
Thsi particular topic probably belongs on another topic line but I find it fantastic that there is no REVENUE to be gleened from the 55+ crowd.
I have more than 3 friends (actually lots more ) that are between 55 and 64 who spend money....LOTS of it.
They buy cars, second homes, appliances, furniture, toys etc. for their grandkids....
in short they have LOTS of disposable income.
Someone really bright will figure out they are a demo to target.
I have more than 3 friends (actually lots more ) that are between 55 and 64 who spend money....LOTS of it.
They buy cars, second homes, appliances, furniture, toys etc. for their grandkids....
in short they have LOTS of disposable income.
Someone really bright will figure out they are a demo to target.
Unfortunately, you're living in the 1960's.
In radio today in your major markets, the agencies are everything. Probably 90% of the business or more is done with either in-house, regional or national agencies. And they are the ones that say "no 55+".
A station has to be 25-54, with audience centered preferably 35-44 to get the majority of the buys.
And, no radio company that I've seen, to date, has the cojones to stand up to an agency to try and correct their way of thinking.
In radio today in your major markets, the agencies are everything. Probably 90% of the business or more is done with either in-house, regional or national agencies. And they are the ones that say "no 55+".
A station has to be 25-54, with audience centered preferably 35-44 to get the majority of the buys.
And, no radio company that I've seen, to date, has the cojones to stand up to an agency to try and correct their way of thinking.
I
its time w (your name)
Guest
Thats right, JUSTAREPORTER, Old people have no money and they dont matter. So saith the "marketing experts" and "consultants." They know what they're talking about. You and I are just "foolish," "living in Happy Days," or "bitter?" (dont know why, Im actually overemployed) or something like that? (I could have sworn I was personally happy too ??? but....)justareporter said:
But remember, the consultants know it all. Cant you see what a great job they've done to bring terrestrial radio to its current state? How dare you question them. Does radio in 2007 not completely rock? I know thats what I hear on the street, and everywhere else.
Not.
Old people are the fastest growing demo in the country, and yeah, Justareporter, maybe we've just come upon the SMALL BAND OF THE ONLY AFFLUENT OLD FOLKS IN AMERICA???? Something in this just pegs my BS meter. Remember when the "experts" said an all-sports tv channel wouldnt work? I think these are the guys who brought you New Coke.
Old people are a huge and growing niche. I see them. There everywhere. They walk around just like us. They dont even know their old.
If you cant sell to a huge, diverse, dynamic, affluent, loyal, mobile, stable demo, then you dont belong in sales.
To do this, you have to re-educate the agency buyers. And, so far, the radio business, in my opinion is either too afraid of "offending" these people, or thinks it would take too much money, time and effort to re-educate them.
I read an interesting article one time that mentioned that the TV networks audience is dwindling. Certainly, cable fragmentation is a big part. But, the writer conjured what effect the networks constant insistance on
the 18-34 and 18-49 year old audience might have had on their audience as the older "adults" migrated to the cable channels that would target them. I realize it's a bit off topic here, but, if true, it would make you wonder if radio isn't going down the same road....
I read an interesting article one time that mentioned that the TV networks audience is dwindling. Certainly, cable fragmentation is a big part. But, the writer conjured what effect the networks constant insistance on
the 18-34 and 18-49 year old audience might have had on their audience as the older "adults" migrated to the cable channels that would target them. I realize it's a bit off topic here, but, if true, it would make you wonder if radio isn't going down the same road....
its time w (your name) said:
Advertisers do a lot more research on ad effectiveness than we might think, and they know what they get back for every dollar spent on advertising. In this case, they know that the money spent against 55+ does not yield a good return, as it takes more advertising to change buying patterns or to convince 55+ consumers. Thus, the spend the money and they don't even get back the expense. Low return on investment. Nothing to do with the CSI of older consumers.
This is not a consultant issue. It is one of advertisers not making any return when they advertise to 55+.
If you are in an agency-dependent market, you should know that agencies just follow client dictates. And radio stations can not change those.
KevinFodor said:
This goes much higher up. Media buyers don't do anythihng but execute a media plan; their job is to deliver the desired reach and frequency at the desired cost per point. They are rate negotiators, mostly. The media plan comes from the media director, who submits it for client approval along with the campaign strategy, costs and creative from other departments. Once approved, it is pretty much engraved in stone.
Most stations do not have upper demo problems, so it is just a few stations with ageing demos that even care. The rest were designed to appeal to sales demos.
Clients do not want 55+ because they know the return on ad expenditures does not justify the expense.
justareporter said:
Advertisers figure out long ago that for most goods and services, it takes more ad expenditure to create a sale than the profit on the sale to seniors because they are more set in buying patterns and take more advertising to convince.
Okay, so at half-way between 50 and 55 maybe I'm not yet "set" in my ways but I gotta tell you...build a better mousetrap and I'll buy one.
The notion that over 55 adults (the fastest growing population in the nation) are incapable of buying "new" products vs. the ones they are used to is absolute rubbish.
That might of been true 50 years ago when people retired, played shuffleboard and created a library for their record collection...not that any of my grandparents did that but I am assuming someone did.
The "baby boom" generation as any number of ads for "Amerprise" will tell you is not going to take a long nap through their retirement. They have disposable income, brains and goals. If I were in the ad business I'd target them....not ignore them.
The notion that over 55 adults (the fastest growing population in the nation) are incapable of buying "new" products vs. the ones they are used to is absolute rubbish.
That might of been true 50 years ago when people retired, played shuffleboard and created a library for their record collection...not that any of my grandparents did that but I am assuming someone did.
The "baby boom" generation as any number of ads for "Amerprise" will tell you is not going to take a long nap through their retirement. They have disposable income, brains and goals. If I were in the ad business I'd target them....not ignore them.
I couldn't agree more. But, tell that to a 25 year old agency buyer.
Gladly...set up the appointment. I'll be there.
justareporter said:
As mentioned before, the advertisers that use agencies do estensive research, and there is not a good ROI on advertising to 55+ demos. It's about the cost of the sale vs. the return in profits. Some of these accounts know daily the effect of their campaigns, and they are constantly looking to optimize the expenses
It's not the folks in the ad business... it is the clients themselves who determine target demos for thier goods and services.
David:
Perhaps you're right. But, I've never seen a local direct client who advertised on an oldies station that was seeing increased sales complain about the demo of listener. On the other hand, I've had a lot of radio salespeople come back to me in the programming office and say "the agency says our audience is too old."
So, what's right here? Or are both sides just passing the buck?
Perhaps you're right. But, I've never seen a local direct client who advertised on an oldies station that was seeing increased sales complain about the demo of listener. On the other hand, I've had a lot of radio salespeople come back to me in the programming office and say "the agency says our audience is too old."
So, what's right here? Or are both sides just passing the buck?
By the way, David:
I did misspeak here. I should have dropped the word "direct" out of local direct. A direct advertiser doesn't deal with an agency.
My point is: I am aware of local clients who directed their agency to buy an oldies station because they knew it moved product for them. This was done over the "objections" of the agency. And, I reiterate,
I've had many radio sales people tell me in the programming office "the agency says our audience is too old."
Again, perhaps you're right. Perhaps the client directs a "target" demo to the agency. But, let's take a car dealer here. In many medium/large/major markets, these businesses have agencies. I know a thing or two about the car business. I can tell you...auto dealer sales managers don't care at all how young or old a buyer is. They just want to move cars off the lot. In fact, they might prefer the older buyer, as the older buyer tends to pay cash.
So, yes...the client may "direct" a "target demo" to the agency. But what influence does the agency make to the buyer? What "advice" does a client get, demo-wise, from the agency? Isn't that also the agency's job?
I did misspeak here. I should have dropped the word "direct" out of local direct. A direct advertiser doesn't deal with an agency.
My point is: I am aware of local clients who directed their agency to buy an oldies station because they knew it moved product for them. This was done over the "objections" of the agency. And, I reiterate,
I've had many radio sales people tell me in the programming office "the agency says our audience is too old."
Again, perhaps you're right. Perhaps the client directs a "target" demo to the agency. But, let's take a car dealer here. In many medium/large/major markets, these businesses have agencies. I know a thing or two about the car business. I can tell you...auto dealer sales managers don't care at all how young or old a buyer is. They just want to move cars off the lot. In fact, they might prefer the older buyer, as the older buyer tends to pay cash.
So, yes...the client may "direct" a "target demo" to the agency. But what influence does the agency make to the buyer? What "advice" does a client get, demo-wise, from the agency? Isn't that also the agency's job?
KevinFodor said:
There are two kinds of agency clients... local accounts who use local agencies because they do not want to have the ad department overhead and want fresh creative and marketing ideas... and regional or national accounts that use an agency to do creative and media placement in many markets.
The local agency is more easily influenced, as a good single station case can be taken to the client if the agency sees a benefit. On national and regional campaigns, a local station is simply irrelevant.
Generally, the bigger the advertiser, the more research they do or have access to to show them their consumer profile and ad effectiveness. This type of account is not going to get or want much agency advice on the things they already know.
The local agency is closer to being a local direct account... meetings often include a client representative, in fact. However, many such accounts, like cars or any retail that uses coop, there may be manufacturer guidelines that have to be followed.
On your car dealer reference, keep in mind that in some states, the dealer makes money on financing referrals and leases, while cash purchases do not provide this kind of added profit. I just bought a car, and asked about this... and was told they preferred financed deals... and even more... leases, for this reason.
KevinFodor said:
The 25-year old media buyer is merely the front point of contact for an organization. A grunt. He/she is just there to act as a gatekeeper and execute a set of marching orders. And...oh yeah....not do anything to rock the boat or p-o the client. Rule #1 in sales...find a way to get to the real decision-maker. Anyone who hangs their hat on the idea of "converting" a junior-level implementer is in the wrong line of work.
C
chuckydoll
Guest
Returning this to the thread's subject
As reported by NERW, R&R and other sources, CBS-FM returns at 1:01 PM on Thursday, July 12.
Now that the date and time of the flip have been taken care of, a lot of people are throwing out their old half-fast ideas about the station. These people want the same DJs as before, the same music as before, a boatload of specialty shows as before. That's a recipe for a 1 share in your first full ratings book -- and when the hype goes away you'll wish Jack were still around. I don't write this to defend Jack, I write this because it's the way the industry is today.
The same DJs as before won't cut it. Harry Harrison is gone -- forced out in the Jack flip. Ron Lundy is retired. Dan Ingram wants no part of CBS -- he got fired a year or so before the Jack flip. Bruce Morrow is working for Sirius. Bobby Jay may be persona non grata -- he filed a grievance with AFTRA over losing his benefits in the Jack flip.
The same music as before won't cut it. If all you're playing is Beatles, Motown and 60's music the word will get out pretty fast that it's an old people's station. That's what CBS-FM was playing before the Jack flip.
A boatload of specialty shows won't cut it. If you've got to break format every day for a top-20 countdown or a Beatles show or a doo-wop show you're writing your own epitaph. Most stations don't do specialty shows now because they interfere with the station's sound. Z100 runs "American Top 40" only because Clear Channel owns the station and the show's syndicator.
The way CBS-FM should relaunch is simple: Treat it as a new station playing "Good Time Rock 'n Roll". Sign on jockless -- that's the way a new station hits the air these days. Be broad yet mass appeal in your music -- go from 1964-1989 with plenty of room for New York hits. Do plenty of promotion around the format theme. Add DJs on a gradual basis. Most of all, keep the spotload down. That is how you'll build listener loyalty.
As reported by NERW, R&R and other sources, CBS-FM returns at 1:01 PM on Thursday, July 12.
Now that the date and time of the flip have been taken care of, a lot of people are throwing out their old half-fast ideas about the station. These people want the same DJs as before, the same music as before, a boatload of specialty shows as before. That's a recipe for a 1 share in your first full ratings book -- and when the hype goes away you'll wish Jack were still around. I don't write this to defend Jack, I write this because it's the way the industry is today.
The same DJs as before won't cut it. Harry Harrison is gone -- forced out in the Jack flip. Ron Lundy is retired. Dan Ingram wants no part of CBS -- he got fired a year or so before the Jack flip. Bruce Morrow is working for Sirius. Bobby Jay may be persona non grata -- he filed a grievance with AFTRA over losing his benefits in the Jack flip.
The same music as before won't cut it. If all you're playing is Beatles, Motown and 60's music the word will get out pretty fast that it's an old people's station. That's what CBS-FM was playing before the Jack flip.
A boatload of specialty shows won't cut it. If you've got to break format every day for a top-20 countdown or a Beatles show or a doo-wop show you're writing your own epitaph. Most stations don't do specialty shows now because they interfere with the station's sound. Z100 runs "American Top 40" only because Clear Channel owns the station and the show's syndicator.
The way CBS-FM should relaunch is simple: Treat it as a new station playing "Good Time Rock 'n Roll". Sign on jockless -- that's the way a new station hits the air these days. Be broad yet mass appeal in your music -- go from 1964-1989 with plenty of room for New York hits. Do plenty of promotion around the format theme. Add DJs on a gradual basis. Most of all, keep the spotload down. That is how you'll build listener loyalty.
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