Can anyone list all the CAM D (or other non IBOC digital) stations on the air?

[Chuck]

A true evolution would be to do with AM what the FCC has done with HDTV: give all the stations a second channel to broadcast in digital. An all-digital AM signal would probably sound much better than any of the systems we're discussing here. It certainly would be more than a "half step" as you said.

Of course engineering the allocations for second channels would be an absolute nightmare.

You'd have to open up some new frequencies. There simply isn't any room at the inn. My own opinion is that would be the best way to handle the situation. AM is already a sewer at night and any band aid approach will probably make it worse.

Where do you get the new frequencies? How about from the 160 meter ham radio bands? Before everyone goes nuts, I am an amateur radio operator. While I think ham radio is a useful service, it does occupy a disproportionate amount of spectrum when you consider what a small percentage of the population are actually are authorized to use it.

I'm sure those comments will stir some controversy and probably get me expelled from ARRL.

 

[autopaint-1]

You aren't kidding Chuck. No way that broadcasters should take 160 from us. It's the only band we have in the medium wave spectrum. 100 Khz were opened by the FCC for expansion and in most of the country it's filled with low power tis systems.
There are literally a handful of broadcasters using this spectrum and so far I don't know any who have returned their old freq's after the grace period ended. Actually all stations were to have been 10 K day, 1 K night non D and at least in NY we have a 10 K day, 10 K night directional station on 1660. The point of 1660 being the first expanded band station came down from Sr. Bush because Elizabeth NJ was the largest city without a radio station. So let's see how 1660 has served the people of Elizabeth since it's come on the air. It started as a Radio Ahh's translator. Today it's a pay for play foreign language station and the city of license was moved to Jersey City. Meanwhile 1530 WJDM remains on the air in Spanish. Getting back to 160, until recently we didn't have access to 160 for years due to over the horizon radar systems which we "shared" the band with. Another problem with 160 and freq's in that range is very poor groundwave coverage. Any relocation would have to be in the vhf/uhf and higher range. If they went that route compatibility wouldn't be an issue and any one of a dozen digital systems could be used. If that occurred we'd be hearing in 10 years cries from many broadcasters that the current AM BCB was shutting down and that they'd have to return their licenses for the new band license. Imagine the cost of that, all new facilities and thousands of useless analogue transmitters and receivers made obsolete overnight. At this time there is no deadline for shutting down analogue facilities. That would not be the case if a new band were opened up. By the way, what bands do you operate? I used to do 80, 40 and 20 meter CW in the extra portion. Before I moved I used a TH 5 and a Kenwood 430. I’m actually thinking about taking the radio out and putting it on the air again. I have a 40 Meter V which would make an OK temporary antenna. I also do 440 FM now and then. Have you tried EchoLink yet?

 

[arnoldevns]

There are literally a handful of broadcasters using this spectrum and so far I don't know any who have returned their old freq's after the grace period ended.

Actually I do know of one frequency in North Texas that went away as scheduled: 950am from Denison, Texas. In it's place is 1700 in Richardson (about 40 miles down US 75)

By the way, as I read it now there are 3 stations using CAM-D. The previously mentioned KDYL in SLC. There are two stations in the Beaumont/Port Arthur, Texas area using the system. (they're co-owned) There are still no radios that I'm aware of. Mr. Kahn promises there will be "soon" on his website. I'd love to hear it.

 

[JasonW]

<Where do you get the new frequencies? How about from the 160 meter ham radio bands? Before everyone goes nuts, I am an amateur radio operator. While I think ham radio is a useful service, it does occupy a disproportionate amount of spectrum when you consider what a small percentage of the population are actually are authorized to use it.

I'm sure those comments will stir some controversy and probably get me expelled from ARRL.>

160 meters, hmmm...my "Gizmo" and "Metzo" Part 15 AM transmitters *do* tune all the way to 1800 kHz.

-- Jason

 

[Chuck]

You aren't kidding Chuck. No way that broadcasters should take 160 from us.

<snip>

By the way, what bands do you operate? I used to do 80, 40 and 20 meter CW in the extra portion. Before I moved I used a TH 5 and a Kenwood 430. I’m actually thinking about taking the radio out and putting it on the air again. I have a 40 Meter V which would make an OK temporary antenna. I also do 440 FM now and then. Have you tried EchoLink yet?

So which band would you prefer to lose? Not long ago, I think you were advocating that some commercial AM broadcasters ought to give up their frequencies. The idea was to thin out the herd so we could have HD on MW. No offense meant, but that sounds a bit hypocritical. I guess it's OK to take something away from someone, as long as it isn't you? I'm sure that is how everyone feels, including the owners of those underperforming AM stations.

To be honest, I'm not in favor of taking anything away from anybody, but I have fewer problems with taking something from a hobby that will have very little economic effect on those who lost, rather than from people whose jobs and livelihoods are involved. Owning a radio station is an investment as well as a career. I would be very unhappy if the government confiscated my savings account. I’d expect a radio station owner to have the same reaction.

I'm the first to admit that it would be really cool to take an old Gates, Collins or RCA broadcast transmitter and fire it up on 160 to see how great it could sound. I have friends who do this. In fact, I've even helped drag some of those beasts around for them. They are really heavy!

Ham radio is a good hobby and a lot of very dedicated people are involved in it, but I doubt the world would stop spinning if 160 went away for ham use. You are right about its technical problems, but an all digital system might be able to overcome many of those. Being digital, it could also be very close spaced with little or none of the interference problems you'd have with an analog signal. Besides you said that the digital revolution will make most stations local. I think that could be easily accomplished in that band.

The latest edition of ARRL's magazine, "QST" is called "The Antenna Issue." I haven't had time to read the whole thing so I may have missed something, but all the articles I've seen for antennas were for 80 meters and up. The bulk were VHF and UHF. I think that is where practical Ham radio is centered. In a disaster, you won't find many people with 160 meter walkie talkies working traffic.

Another place you might be able to mine for available spectrum, is the old Public Service Band below 6 meters. Major Armstrong liked it. Although not heavily populated, it still is used by some communities, so there would be a consequence to taxpayers if all of that had to be moved.

Of course there is always TV Channel 6, but in their infinite wisdom, the Commission is allowing legacy channel six stations to relocate their digital signal to their old analog frequency. I think that is a mistake, but what do I know?

FYI, I'm one of those 2 meter guys, if and when I participate. I have to admit, my current interest is low, but there is a Yaesu FT-2600M sitting next to my desk. And no, I 'm not versed in Echolink.

 

[dbdigital]

Re: Honest answer to a fair question:

I've done a little research and found exactly one station offering the CAM-D system: KDYL-AM 1060 in Salt Lake City, Utah.
See their website for more information: http://www.kdylam.com/

To my knowledge, there are no receivers on the market to pick up this system.

You have a right to be somewhat annoyed by the endless complaints about IBOC on this board. The term HD Radio is specific to Ibiquity's digital system. However, I think this board should be open to discuss all IBOC digital systems.

From what I've read, Ibiquity has the best FM system and Mr. Kahn's CAMD system is best for AM radio.

Judging from the description of CAM-D from KDYL's website, it seems the perfect solution for AM digital.

I just wish Mr. Kahn would stop the "reds under the bed" paranoia that he exhibits on his website and be more forthcoming about CAM-D, how it works and how he intends to get it established as a standard and into future radios.

He may blame iBiquity and the FCC but, really, he's his own worst enemy.

db

 

[SUPERCASTER]

More stations are coming on with FMeXtra and Cam D too, and they don't require FCC final approval. Now the HD Radio/iBiqity partners are trying to change the specs. They have just submitted a new set of measurement standards to the FCC. That will take awhile. How many radio manufacturers are likely to build sets for a standard that is not yet finalized or finally appoved as yet. Not many.
You learn to live with it. ;D

 

[autopaint-1]

"More stations are coming on with FMeXtra and Cam D too, and they don't require FCC final approval. Now the HD Radio/iBiqity partners are trying to change the specs. They have just submitted a new set of measurement standards to the FCC. That will take awhile. How many radio manufacturers are likely to build sets for a standard that is not yet finalized or finally appoved as yet. Not many.
You learn to live with it."

So I've heard, the number of stations operating with FMextra and Cam D decoders are litterally in the single digits already. I'm glad you pointed out how well these systems are doing. I think I'll stop off on the way home this afternoon and pick up a new radio just to enjoy the sound of these two great systems. Maybe I'll buy two, one for the car and one for the home. Life is good. By the way, look up because the sky is falling. Remember you heard it here first.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Re: Can anyone list all the CAM D (or other non IBOC digital) stations on the ai

Yup. Those new programmable software radios are great for the open Cam D and FMeXtra digital broadcasting systems. Reprogrammable for future advances, updates and upgrades too! It's just a shame HD Radio is still changing, (a work in progress), not yet finally standardized or approved, and demands proprietary receiver fees for every radio. They promised an open (not proprietary) system. SHAME, SHAME.

 

[autopaint-1]

"Yup. Those new programmable software radios are great for the open Cam D and FMeXtra digital broadcasting systems. Reprogrammable for future advances, updates and upgrades too! It's just a shame HD Radio is still changing, (a work in progress), not yet finally standardized or approved, and demands proprietary receiver fees for every radio. They promised an open (not proprietary) system. SHAME, SHAME."

Hey guess what? My HD Receptor is also software programmable and upgradable. Isn't that an amazing coincidence? Now you can go out and buy a working digital radio for a system that doesn't rely on an analogue component to work. As for being proprietary, yep I don't like that part but y'know what, I don't have to pay another cent for my HD radio after the initial purchase. Sounds like a good deal to me. By the way you left off a Shame (Shirley & Company).

 

[Chuck]

Now you can go out and buy a working digital radio for a system that doesn't rely on an analogue component to work. As for being proprietary, yep I don't like that part but y'know what, I don't have to pay another cent for my HD radio after the initial purchase. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Back in 1951 or so you could have bought a nice "state of the art" CBS System color TV, complete with a spinning color wheel. Standards don't always stick. I'm guessing that history is going to repeat itself and we will have a patchwork of competing digital standards for radio. I'm not sure that anyone is going to be well served by that.

Then again, my first VCR was a Betamax, so what do I know? There is always some risk in being an early adopter.

 

[autopaint-1]

"Back in 1951 or so you could have bought a nice "state of the art" CBS System color TV, complete with a spinning color wheel. Standards don't always stick. I'm guessing that history is going to repeat itself and we will have a patchwork of competing digital standards for radio. I'm not sure that anyone is going to be well served by that.

Then again, my first VCR was a Betamax, so what do I know? There is always some risk in being an early adopter."

It's possible Chuck, however lets look at the CBS spinning wheel system. It was supposed to be much better than the RCA NTSC (Never the same color twice) system. The problems were that the CBS system wasn't compatible and it was mechanical. The problem I've read about the other systems competing with IBOC is that they either aren't compatible or require the analogue component to remain in force for them to work. With IBOC it is compatible and eventually, the analogue will go away. As far as Betamax it always reminded me of the Apple, Dos competition. Now some will say that the Beta format (which was adopted in a varied format in the commercial world) and Apple computers are superior products. What it should tell you is that the best picture isn't always what the public is looking for. they want flexibility and neither Beat or Apple were as flexible at VHS or DOS. There were other issues such as length of tape and limited licensing which hindered both of the above mentioned products.

 

[Chuck]

It's possible Chuck, however lets look at the CBS spinning wheel system. It was supposed to be much better than the RCA NTSC (Never the same color twice) system. The problems were that the CBS system wasn't compatible and it was mechanical. The problem I've read about the other systems competing with IBOC is that they either aren't compatible or require the analogue component to remain in force for them to work. With IBOC it is compatible and eventually, the analogue will go away. As far as Betamax it always reminded me of the Apple, Dos competition. Now some will say that the Beta format (which was adopted in a varied format in the commercial world) and Apple computers are superior products. What it should tell you is that the best picture isn't always what the public is looking for. they want flexibility and neither Beat or Apple were as flexible at VHS or DOS. There were other issues such as length of tape and limited licensing which hindered both of the above mentioned products.

True enough, but that wasn’t exactly my point. It's a simple one though: The first product off the starting line is not always the one that is ultimately adopted. It is a recurring theme in electronic history.

FWIW, a mutation of the CBS color wheel lives on in every DLP video projector or TV. There is a spinning color wheel in each one which allows for great color purity and no convergence error. Betamax mutated into BetaCam, but you won't find it in someone’s home.

If we take HDTV as an example, the FCC ended up making no standards. I believe there are 18 versions of HDTV that your ATSC tuner must figure out and convert to whatever native format the screen likes. I can see a similar scenario coming with digital radio. In some for or other , I think IBOC will be with us for a while, but I'll bet that the receiver manufacturers end up having to deal with multiple competing formats, like Kahn's, DRE and maybe a few more that we haven't though of.

I'm a fan of history, and I find that frequently it repeats itself. This might just be one of these times.

 

[arnoldevns]

True enough, but that wasn’t exactly my point. It's a simple one though: The first product off the starting line is not always the one that is ultimately adopted. It is a recurring theme in electronic history.

FWIW, a mutation of the CBS color wheel lives on in every DLP video projector or TV. There is a spinning color wheel in each one which allows for great color purity and no convergence error. Betamax mutated into BetaCam, but you won't find it in someone’s home.

If we take HDTV as an example, the FCC ended up making no standards. I believe there are 18 versions of HDTV that your ATSC tuner must figure out and convert to whatever native format the screen likes. I can see a similar scenario coming with digital radio. In some for or other , I think IBOC will be with us for a while, but I'll bet that the receiver manufacturers end up having to deal with multiple competing formats, like Kahn's, DRE and maybe a few more that we haven't though of.

I'm a fan of history, and I find that frequently it repeats itself. This might just be one of these times.

I'm not sure the comparison to HDTV is quite right. I agree that history frequently repeats itself. In this case, I think there will be some guidelines from the FCC that cause some formats to drop out of the competition. If Ibiquity can't fix the nighttime AM problem, I suspect they won't be able to keep their AM system in the game if someone else comes along with a better system that works. (like Kahn)

 

[Chuck]

I'm not sure the comparison to HDTV is quite right.

Hey, if any of us were "sure" we wouldn't be hanging around here.... ;D