Dan Mason worried about the future of AM radio

[SirRoxalot]

And, again, there is only about a megahertz of total band there... about one twentieth of the spectrum that the FM band has. Of corse, the need for rather large antennas can't be easily obviated as that is as much a function of wavelength as anything else.

You're thinking too big. Use low power, and short antennas, and you can control propogation. The smaller the cell, the more of them that you can have, and the more times you can reuse a frequency. Look at Part 15 broadcasters and travel info AMs.

 

[davideduardo]

You're thinking too big. Use low power, and short antennas, and you can control propogation. The smaller the cell, the more of them that you can have, and the more times you can reuse a frequency. Look at Part 15 broadcasters and travel info AMs.

I heard CBC AM relay transmitters, common for decades in rural Canada, from distances as far away as the plains provinces. They were typically 50 watts into antennas that were as short as 25 feet high.

The 100 watt station I heard at over 2000 miles was feeding a 20 foot length of wire hung from a pole with a waterpipe ground.

TIS stations have been DXed over hundreds of miles.

When I spoke of antennas, I was referring to the need for rather large receiving antennas compared to what is needed for cellphone reception.

 

[SirRoxalot]

I heard CBC AM relay transmitters, common for decades in rural Canada, from distances as far away as the plains provinces. They were typically 50 watts into antennas that were as short as 25 feet high.

The 100 watt station I heard at over 2000 miles was feeding a 20 foot length of wire hung from a pole with a waterpipe ground.

TIS stations have been DXed over hundreds of miles.

When I spoke of antennas, I was referring to the need for rather large receiving antennas compared to what is needed for cellphone reception.

You can quibble if you wish, but there's nothing that says that the "recovered" bandwidth would have to use AM as the modulation scheme. Power levels could be in milliwatts and still get the job done for a very localized area. Spread-spectrum could resolve co-channel interfernce. As far as "rather large antenna" is concerned, they seem to be able to fit them into very small AM radio packages - and have since the '60s. Ever heard of a coil?

Once again, let me refer you to Part 15 AMs. Heard any of those hundreds of miles away?

 

[davideduardo]

Once again, let me refer you to Part 15 AMs. Heard any of those hundreds of miles away?

No, but the coverage is supposed to be limited to essentially one piece of property and its adjoining area... and yes, they have been DXed at rather large distances, such as 50 miles.

The issue is that the band, no matter what the modulation, propagates principally by groundwave in the daytime, but is joined by skywave at night and skywave is an option open to any power level. And then, since groundwave is not determined by free space calculations, but by local soil conductivity, it's very inappropriate for cell based systems.

And yes, I have heard of coils. Go to http://www.davidgleason.com/1964-1970-E.htm and scroll down three-quarters of the way to the newspaper ad with two pictures of a diplexer... that's me standing next to it, and the box is just jam packed with coils I wound and tuned.

 

[KeithE4]

You can quibble if you wish, but there's nothing that says that the "recovered" bandwidth would have to use AM as the modulation scheme. Power levels could be in milliwatts and still get the job done for a very localized area. Spread-spectrum could resolve co-channel interfernce.

With hundreds of millions of AM radios out there, an alternative mode is probably impractical. I don't believe the ionosphere is kind to OFDM or PSK transmissions, SSB has lousy audio quality for broadcast use, and FM is too wide.

As far as "rather large antenna" is concerned, they seem to be able to fit them into very small AM radio packages - and have since the '60s. Ever heard of a coil?

A '60s-era pocket radio is about 3/4" thick. An iPod or other MP3 player with FM is about 1/4" thick. Have you ever heard of a ferrite rod antenna that would have to be, at most, about 1" wide, 1/4" high, and 1/16" to 1/8" thick - including the ferrite core - that would work on the AM band? I haven't.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Think outside the box, Keith.

You're assuming that the programming currently on AM would be preserved, and that antennas would be designed to pick up high-powered stations at a distance. That's the reverse of cellular theory.

Secondly, even a daytime-only service would be useful. When's the greatest amount of cellular traffic occur? Nights & weekends? And, I'd love to see an example of a LEGAL 100mW AM signal going 50 miles. Even at that, with spread-spectrum technology, or packeted services, 50 mile separation isn't that hard to achieve.

I'm not suggesting that this type of service would replace higher-frequency cell service, but the bandwidth could certainly be utilized much more efficiently if today's AM radio were killed off - either intentionally or "unintentionally" through badly-conceived and implemented schemes like AM IBOC.

 

[KeithE4]

Think outside the box, Keith.

You're assuming that the programming currently on AM would be preserved, and that antennas would be designed to pick up high-powered stations at a distance. That's the reverse of cellular theory.

Secondly, even a daytime-only service would be useful. When's the greatest amount of cellular traffic occur? Nights & weekends? And, I'd love to see an example of a LEGAL 100mW AM signal going 50 miles. Even at that, with spread-spectrum technology, or packeted services, 50 mile separation isn't that hard to achieve.

I'm not suggesting that this type of service would replace higher-frequency cell service, but the bandwidth could certainly be utilized much more efficiently if today's AM radio were killed off - either intentionally or "unintentionally" through badly-conceived and implemented schemes like AM IBOC.

It sounds like you want to fight the ionosphere. That is impossible. But if you're talking about just low-powered community stations, that might work to a point. But that point starts at 1230 kHz and ends at 1700. The lower frequencies work best for long-distance use and besides, I don't think the blowtorches will go away, even if they eventually simulcast on an FM frequency.

The old folks (50+) aren't going to die off anytime soon. The WW2/Korean War generation may be on the way out, but their kids (like me) - the last that grew up with AM - will be around for another 20-40 years (we hope! ;D ). We still listen to AM, if only for sports and Limbaugh. Both are a long way from being predominately on FM.

My feeling is that the big AM stations can survive, but the FCC needs to reallocate the band and do some other things:

• Turn off IBOC. Not tomorrow. Today. Digital probably cannot work on low frequencies at all, and it certainly can't be mixed with AM in the same spectrum.
• Expand the FM band down to 76 MHz, with Class A power levels only. Move as many AM stations as possible to this new band. Only allow translators within 200 miles of the parent station's COL (Sorry, Cavalry Chapel, Moody, and the rest of the bible-banging satellators, this means you're gone).
  
• Clears must become clears again, with at most two stations (east and west, not including Alaska & Hawaii) on any clear channel, both running 50 kW ND, or directional only to keep the signals out of Canada, Mexico, and the oceans. Regional channels must be pared down so that only 8 stations per frequency remain, with 10 kW days and 5 kW nights ND, except when it's necessary to protect Canada & Mexico. This band would be 540-1220 kHz (Check a station list from the mid '40s - this is close to what I'm talking about). Canadian and Mexican stations would still have their NARBA allocations if they want them.
  
• The band 1230-1700 kHz sould be come entirely "graveyard," with stations running a maximum of 1000 watts day and 250 watts night. Authorize community stations in this band only with a maximum of 10 watts into a 15 meter antenna (I believe this is the TIS maximum).

I still maintain that it is still possible to make money in broadcasting even without the sacred "sales demo." Maybe not as much money, but still profitable. It would require imaginative programming, both network/syndicated and local, plus a sales staff that actually gets off its collective butt and SELLS the station to local advertisers, not just sits around and waits for the almighty agencies to call in. But then, I'm speaking as a useless old geezer listener who doesn't know squat, not a hot-shot (dot the "o") broadcasting guru - the kind who is so-o-o-o-o successful today. :

 

[TheBigA]

My feeling is that the big AM stations can survive, but the FCC needs to reallocate the band and do some other things:

They're not going to do ANY of those things. They are all counter to longstanding FCC policy. And the Congress supports them on all of those issues.

As far as expanding FM, there is no upside for the government to do that, and it requires the entire population to buy new radios, which it has proven it will not do, regardless of programming.

The government wants radio to be local, so it will not reinstitute the clear channels. The government does not want to pare down the number of stations, but increase them. Democrats and Republicans agree on these points. This is not a partisan issue.

So given that the government won't do any of the things you list, what then?

 

[davideduardo]

A '60s-era pocket radio is about 3/4" thick. An iPod or other MP3 player with FM is about 1/4" thick. Have you ever heard of a ferrite rod antenna that would have to be, at most, about 1" wide, 1/4" high, and 1/16" to 1/8" thick - including the ferrite core - that would work on the AM band? I haven't.

There was some work done a while back to see if an AM antenna could be printed on a circuit board, using a ferrite / conductive plastic / resin compound that looked like a thick 50's era board trace. It did not work. But Gigahertz band antennas can easily be printed on a board. And FM uses the headphone wires or the power cord. Since a wavelength on, let's say, 570, is about 1600 feet, this is not something that lends itself to miniaturization.

 

[davideduardo]

The old folks (50+) aren't going to die off anytime soon. The WW2/Korean War generation may be on the way out, but their kids (like me) - the last that grew up with AM - will be around for another 20-40 years (we hope! ;D ). We still listen to AM, if only for sports and Limbaugh. Both are a long way from being predominately on FM.

But stations and formats that depend on 55+ to get audience can't generate sales. There are essentially no ad buys for 55+, and stations catering to the demo are going to be limited to small markets or to cheap, local direct accounts.

This is why slowly but very surely news/talk and sports are moving to FM.

My feeling is that the big AM stations can survive, but the FCC needs to reallocate the band and do some other things:

I spoke with the programmer for one big AM (50 kw day 10 kw night) that moved to FM last year. Revenues are way up, and in 25-54, the station jumped about 8 rank positions in the market. Now, the AM band in that market lost its cume magnet, and all stations are off on that band. Dead.

• Clears must become clears again, with at most two stations (east and west, not including Alaska & Hawaii) on any clear channel, both running 50 kW ND, or directional only to keep the signals out of Canada, Mexico, and the oceans.

• 
  
  There is no revenue potential for coverage outside the local market, and so little radio is listened to at night, no broadcaster could be interested in this.
  
  

  I still maintain that it is still possible to make money in broadcasting even without the sacred "sales demo." Maybe not as much money, but still profitable. It would require imaginative programming, both network/syndicated and local, plus a sales staff that actually gets off its collective butt and SELLS the station to local advertisers, not just sits around and waits for the almighty agencies to call in.

  
  Outside the top 20 or 30 markets, 75% and up to 100% of revenue is local.
  
  In the top 10 markets, about 30% of all radio revenue is generated. And most of that is agency. But as market size and station rank decline, the percentage of agency business goes down. And most stations sell only local direct and really know how to do it.
  
  Agency sales are not done waiting for the phone to ring. Agency selling is harder than direct selling, in my opinion, and I have sold both for most of my 50 years in radio.
  
  But even in the smaller markets, formats appealing to geezer demos are more and more a hard sell. Over 65's in their vast majority have no money beyond pensions and social security, and are not a good discretionary spending market. Brand preferences and such are long established, and hard to break... so most accouts prefer a younger consumer. And that is why Ancient Modulation stations are running into a brick wall as the audience goes over the 55 and 65 age barriers.

 

[davideduardo]

And, I'd love to see an example of a LEGAL 100mW AM signal going 50 miles. Even at that, with spread-spectrum technology, or packeted services, 50 mile separation isn't that hard to achieve.

Go and become a member of the NRC or IRCA, the medium wave domestic DX clubs. Reports of this kind of reception occur frequently... the issue is identifying the stations.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Yeah, and line-of-sight FMs duct into markets hundreds of miles away occasionally, but that doesn't keep the technology from being used. If a Part 15 station can be heard 50 or more miles away, it's likely not operating LEGALLY.

The bottom line is that IBOC is a failure on AM. It doesn't work on directional stations, has virtually no audience 3 years in, and has no reasonably-priced receivers. Probably the best option is to revive AM stereo. At least that worked, and didn't cause interference with other stations.

 

[Tom Wells]

I cannot listen to any of the HD-AMs here in Chicago for more than a minute or two before the hiss drives me away.

WGN is now the AM of choice for me, replacing WLS, mostly because I can't stand the hissing.

More than a few Cubs fans asked have me why WGN was so bad for a while. I filled them in.

Using IBOC logic, we shouldn't flush after we use the toilet, we should just enjoy the stench that builds up and permeates into the rest of the house. Just wait, the government will probably require composting toilets soon enough.

Those who make the mess have no right to be "worried" about detriment to their environment.

 

[davideduardo]

Yeah, and line-of-sight FMs duct into markets hundreds of miles away occasionally, but that doesn't keep the technology from being used. If a Part 15 station can be heard 50 or more miles away, it's likely not operating LEGALLY.

Sure it is operating legally. On a reasonably clear channel, that amount of power can go 50 miles just as easily as 250 watts from Hawaii could be heard in Ohio with some frequency.

 

[davideduardo]

The bottom line is that IBOC is a failure on AM. It doesn't work on directional stations, has virtually no audience 3 years in, and has no reasonably-priced receivers. Probably the best option is to revive AM stereo. At least that worked, and didn't cause interference with other stations.

It works fine on broadbanded directionals... try KTNQ in LA as an example. And with many car manufacturerss adding HD in the next year or so, there will be some audience... the real issue is whether, HD or not, anything will be left on AM in most markets worth turning to AM to hear.

 

[SirRoxalot]

It works fine on broadbanded directionals... try KTNQ in LA as an example. And with many car manufacturerss adding HD in the next year or so, there will be some audience... the real issue is whether, HD or not, anything will be left on AM in most markets worth turning to AM to hear.

There are PLENTY of engineers that will dispute that contention.

As far as there being anything "left on AM in most markets worth turning to AM to hear", there are plenty of talk stations left on AM that are doing quite well, thank you. Yes, talk is gravitating to FM in large markets where there are underutilized FM signals. The rest of the country doesn't have that luxury.

 

[davideduardo]

There are PLENTY of engineers that will dispute that contention.

They would dispute that KTNQ is operating very nicely with HD? Bull!

As far as there being anything "left on AM in most markets worth turning to AM to hear", there are plenty of talk stations left on AM that are doing quite well, thank you. Yes, talk is gravitating to FM in large markets where there are underutilized FM signals. The rest of the country doesn't have that luxury.

Dayton, Jacksonville, Tallahassee, Chattanoga, Jackson, TN, Muskegon, Valdosta, Panama City, Charleston, Orlando, New Orleans are just a few examples of smaller markets where talk has migrated or begun simulcasting on FM. The majority of stations that don't do this or plan to do this will continue to suffer erosion of the key sales demos to and, thus, billing erosion that goes way beyond the declines in radio and each market individually.

 

[Savage]

Sure "it works fine on broadbanded directionals." In SOME cases, and in truth, not many. Reality in HD-AM is dictated by the required nulls, the depth and number thereof, and the available real estate. Theoretically you could make HD work on any AM if you tore down say, a 25-acre 6-tower array, moved to a new TL and built a new system from the ground up.

That's why it took three years and a couple of million bucks to get IBOC on one Chicago AM. Deep nulls and critical networks in the phasing system made HD a real problem. And that was with an almost-new antenna system.

In fact, there are documented cases of serious IBOC problems with NON-D AM stations. KDKA was one example.

Nobody is going to spend a million bucks on reworking a complex AM array to get four HD digital listeners, David.

BTW I also dispute your contention that there will be "many car manufacturers adding HD in the next year."

Would you like to go on bashing AM now?

 

[SirRoxalot]

David's not interested in anything outside the top 20 markets, Bob. Unless they interfere with stations in the top 20 markets. Imagine the howls if IBOC on smaller market AMs interfered with large market AMs?

 

[davideduardo]

Would you like to go on bashing AM now?

Nah, the ratings and listener age data for AM does that with no help from me.