• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Dark Panama City FM Now Up for Sale

Just saw that the 104.3 FM (licensed to Lynn Haven) that went dark a few months ago is now listed with a broker for $500,000. I'm told the owners (who have other properties in South Florida) are ready to take somewhat of a loss and concentrate on their profitable properities. They did put about $2 million in just to get the CP alone.

Mark
 
I'm sure that you could make it work, Mark! Even though $500K is a little high in this day and age. At least the city grade coverage is mostly in the city
 
thegulfcoast said:
Is WPFM for sale at $500K? I thought this was for WBYW 104.3 FM?

It seems WPFM is always for sale now-a-days. Everyone that spent any time in PCB circa 1980 wants that station.

I was referring to past transactions in the market/area. About a year back WPFM's cluster of 2 class C's and 2 class C2's in PCB was sold for less than 1 million. Breaking apart that 4 station transaction would put a perceived value of about $300k on WPFM last year. Also C2 93.5 in the PCB market was sold for around $150k. Add to that the shocking price of 3 million for the class C heritage monster WABB FM in Mobile/Pensacola/Destin/Biloxi followed by the even lower stick prices for Pensacola's two top billers WXBM and WMEZ (with comparable signals, heritage, and coverage footprints to WABB) and I roll back around and can't even see a counter offer to an asking price of 1/2 million for a 6kw FM in Panama City.

What was the price on that Class A non-com sold in Bonifay a few months back? 12k$? 20k$?

Weird shit happens in PCB and 104.3 is apparently a turnkey operation built by CW.... Assuming CW was allowed to put the best of everything into it and it sells in the next year I would be surprised to see it go for more than $100k... but what the hell do I know? Tibbs? AMFMXMRedneck?
 
That would have to be a CCENG querstion. I can see $250-$325,000 max. I'd consider it for that, but remember there is no billing history, it's a stand alone and at least Powell bought four stations to be a player in the market. This is a go-it-alone, one man show. Maybe someone will contact me to write them a check. Poledo, you're usually pretty spot-on on your comments. That AMFM dude is the confused soul whose freezing his @$$ off. Then again, I'm a short haired hippie freezing in Nashville. Can I stay with you if we road trip?
 
Transmitter, antenna, and processing are A+ and were purchased new....the NexGen system went to their station in Tallahassee along with the Wheatstone E-1 console.....There is a PR&E digital console that came out of Tallahassee that is now part of the Panama City equipment assets....it is in very good shape....whoever buys it will have to purchase some type of automation system for audio such as NexGen.....All equipment is less than a year old and was purchased brand new.

cceng
 
Tibbs2 said:
That would have to be a CCENG querstion. I can see $250-$325,000 max. I'd consider it for that, but remember there is no billing history, it's a stand alone and at least Powell bought four stations to be a player in the market. This is a go-it-alone, one man show. Maybe someone will contact me to write them a check. Poledo, you're usually pretty spot-on on your comments. That AMFM dude is the confused soul whose freezing his @$$ off. Then again, I'm a short haired hippie freezing in Nashville. Can I stay with you if we road trip?

With no cash flow to establish value at any multiple (5X, 6X, 7X or whatever) 104.3 is like an ugly house in a great location. The sales price becomes whatever somebody wants to offer that the buyer wants to accept. But from what I've seen for standalone Class A sticks with no BCF in the past few years, I think you're in the right ballpark, Tibbs--$250K-ish. If I was 20 years younger I might be tempted to toss twenty bucks into the hat and take a flyer on it, but at this advanced age...

The real roll of the dice is jumping into an environment where the other 3 players have 4 sticks each. This one might be a project for the Seabreeze folks: exclusive format, efficient operation... and a logical extension of their already-established marketplace...
 
Tibbs and AMFMSnowman, I was pretty shocked at your guesses on the value of this little class A. Why would you appraise this station's value higher than Hale's PCB Ticket 93.5?

Are radio station values only based on a multiple of revenues? Seems like price would be based on tangible assets plus an income multiple, but every time I've read people's opinions on station values the only factor mentioned is revenue multiples.

Also, why are the intangible assets of radio stations rated at such high multiple values. Most businesses that I'm familiar with are only worth $.50 to $2 on the dollar.

Speaking of the Ticket, I drove by their office today and they've got a new station vehicle. They've gone and bought an old ambulance and painted it up with all three stations' info. Wonder what type of message Hale's sending by writing his business' name on the side of an ambulance?
 
poledo said:
Are radio station values only based on a multiple of revenues? Seems like price would be based on tangible assets plus an income multiple, but every time I've read people's opinions on station values the only factor mentioned is revenue multiples.

Equipment and real estate have to be worth a lot to affect the value of a station, though having a well built facility sweetens the pot. Likewise, sometimes the real estate's worth more than the station, but in those cases, the land is often sold in a separate deal.

Station values are typically set by multiplying the gross revenue times some factor or by multiplying the net by some factor. In the heyday of radio it was gross x 2.75 or net x 9. Now it's about 50 to 60% of that in most places. If the station's properly run, the net and gross calculations will come out close to each other.

Stations with no cash flow have a value known as the "stick price". Stick value is basically what someone's willing to pay to have a signal in the market. That is usually (not always, though) set by what sticks sell for in similar towns or what the last ones sold for in the target city, if they sold recently. Equipment and land values sometimes play a bigger role in a stick purchase. Size of signal may also affect the stick price. For example, a cash flowing class C3 that upgrades to a C1 and covers a bigger city might have considerably greater value than its cash flow represents.
 
poledo said:
Tibbs and AMFMSnowman, I was pretty shocked at your guesses on the value of this little class A. Why would you appraise this station's value higher than Hale's PCB Ticket 93.5?

Are radio station values only based on a multiple of revenues? Seems like price would be based on tangible assets plus an income multiple, but every time I've read people's opinions on station values the only factor mentioned is revenue multiples.

Also, why are the intangible assets of radio stations rated at such high multiple values. Most businesses that I'm familiar with are only worth $.50 to $2 on the dollar.

Poledo, let me first admit that I'm not an accountant--just a radio guy. But I have bought-and-sold a half-dozen stations over the past 40 years, so I've picked up a few clues.

Radio has some arcane notions--the most important one being "BCF" or broadcast cash flow, usually defined as operating profit... or net ordinariy income. Sales (& other) income minus operating expenses--excluding debt, interest, amortization & depreciation. That's the magic figure.

In today's world, "successful" radio clusters can-and-do spin off 40% to 60% BCF. So, just for fun, let's say CC's Panama City cluster generates $6 million in sales (& other) income and spends $2 million a year to run the SOB. That's $4 million in annual BCF.

And for the past 30 years or so, radio stations have been bought/sold on a multiple of BCF. When consolidation hit, the multiple rose to around 10--though the most savvy among us (Clear Channel) paid up to 15 times BCF for some outstanding properties (because they clearly understood how economies of scale would create significantly more cash flow). Today, following the recession--and with lenders still mostly on the sidelines--multiples of 5 or 6 are more common. (OMIGOD, does this mean the WPAP/Sunny/etc cluster is worth $24 million? Yeah... maybe more).

The $250K number Tibbs and I were tossing around would be little more than a gesture toward the sellers--a way of saying "Here's a quarter for your trouble... now go away."

More later... I'm still working...
 
Well, I appreciate the approach of "typical" radio station value that Kmagrill took. It's very clear! I also think most of "us" know that PC and parts of the Panhandle are special circumstance markets. When I look at the value of various radio properties, I take a more logical approach and have to weigh in the market conditions. Number of signals, power of the major clusters, other forms of media that share the dollars, seasonal business aspects, and then evaluate the multiples. In this stations case, it's tough. A ton spent on equipment (and it's quality), actual goodwill, potential profits vs. signal strength. This station has no long term track record, rather it actually would probably have a negative multiple and all the good equipment, while nice, doesn't bring listeners and ad dollars. Therefore, I would have to consider the investment and dollars spent building the station to a point of POSSIBLE profitable status after actually buying it. That could be $500,000! All said, my $250k guess was just a consideration for discussion purposes and if applied to the hypothetical $500,000 invested, $750,000 would be a disastrous investment into a 6kw station that might return to dark again. Lower it to $249,999.50. Haha. I think Poledo has a good point, that this may be radio, but this is business first!
 
Part Duex...

BTW, my example of CC/PC is just a wild guess to draw a picture--I have no idea how much business they do or what their BCF might be--though it probably falls into the realm of a decent ballpark guess.

Anyway, you asked why a Class A smack in the middle of Panama City might be worth more then 93.5--a C2 or C3 35 miles out of town--and the ultimate answer is that 93.5 covers a shitload of swamp and fish... while 104.3 (when on-air) covers more humans.

And you asked about tangible assets--a logical question. But in the Big Picture (think about the CC cluster), the equipment, building, furnishings, etc., are negligible compared to the intangible--the advertising business being done-or-not-done. Those of us who have hung around radio a long time have all seen great radio stations run from hell-holes... and terrible radio stations run from palaces.

What normal folks think of as "air" and "time," we think of as "inventory."
 
don't have much time to discuss this but wanted to clarify something.....Hale's 93.5 doesn't even come close to city grade in Panama City.....3.16 goes as far west as Mexico Beach(tower is in Port St Joe)....104.3 city grades all of Panama City, Lynn Haven, Parker, Callaway, and most of the beach, etc.(tower is centrally located in Panama City).....saw Poledo's post about why would you value 104.3 more than Hale and wanted to point that imporatant fact out....

cceng (back to deer hunting)
 
For what it's worth... BCF essentially represents the more commonly used EBITDA--earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. Neither concept is GAAP-approved, but both have become short-hand to compare the operational profitability of a company or business unit.

So... BCF X a number (4,5,6,7,?) = price of a radio station or cluster. The multiple depends on the marketplace/comps--and, yeah, tangible assets... and BS.

"You want HOW much for this piece of shit?" "Yeah! And here's why!...." Just like everything else in the world: Life is Negotiable.
 
Why does anyone need to go get a college degree when you have access to these business and accounting wizards??? I never thought I would see this discussion on this board, but it's really a good lesson.
 
Tibbs2 said:
Why does anyone need to go get a college degree when you have access to these business and accounting wizards??? I never thought I would see this discussion on this board, but it's really a good lesson.

It is a good lesson. Far better than the simplified explanation I tried. After 30+ years in radio, I came away with new knowledge today. Cool! Thanks, amfmxm.
 
I'm glad I censored the rest of my longer message, because I went away from the math and more into the logic and reality of today's radio and it's true value. That's what I find the most interesting. Nothing makes sense. The old formulas don't always apply. Still good ole gut feeling and good common sense are good guideposts. There are some amazing advisors on here!
 
It's kinda cool that this thread isn't taking our normal "Emerald Coast all over the place I don't give a rats ass what you think" tone. I didn't intend for that to happen... I was assuming this tread would die or turn fun as usual.
I'm looking at everything from a business standpoint where I want to think I can separate the actual values of tangible property (which in the case of radio stations includes a FCC license that CAN be sold, something I'm not familiar with as I would have to go to work for anyone who wanted to buy my business and/or lease my licenses... all of my licenses are married to me by the government... kinda cool because my (very difficult to obtain) licenses guarantee me a good job for life as long as I obey the law*) and the possible values of intellectual property and goodwill. I too have learned from this and thanks to AMFM have a new perspective on say the value of the entire CC PCB cluster vs. the value of 104.3 that started this topic. I can now easily apply that same perspective to most any radio station or cluster.

Using real nearby business it seems like this should be clear and easy to understand by comparing and contrasting two recent transactions.
First I'm looking at the EMF purchase of the WABB 97.5 "stick" or license while the Dittman family threw away what was probably the most valuable radio business in the market and kept the real estate (and possibly other property) to put up for sale in a separate transaction. As we all know this ended with Cumulus owning 97.5 WABD and quickly rebuilding the "business" that the Dittman's threw in the trash. The way this played out should have actually saved Cumulus a ton of money.
Then compare the WABB deal to the recent Cumulus purchase of the Pensacola Pamal cluster and it truly is like apples to oranges. In the Pamal case Cumulus purchased a fruitful business complete with a very valuable and solid customer and listener base. If I know what I think I do, Pamal didn't really own anything you could actually hold in your hand in Pensacola... assets that would have been of no value to Cumulus, so there was not really any "trash" with this deal.
Now I run into a problem.... how did Cumulus wind up spending less money per "stick" for WMEZ and WXBM than they did for 97.5? Pamal Pensacola should have been worth much more than the 97.5 license.... Any ideas on how to explain this? All I can think of is that the Pamal deal probably included a payroll while the 97.5 deal didn't include anything but a license and I guess a tower space lease. I'm assuming Pamal Pensacola had no debt for Cumulus to take on. Did Dickie pay more for 97.5 because he's had a hard-on for 97.5 for the last decade? What's missing here?

*I wish I could make this easy and simply disclose who I am or what I do for a living but I've talked too much shit on this board and I know some of my customers and B2B associates are reading.

** Disclaimer, I'm dehydrated from a stomach bug and really out of it.... I hope my post made sense. **
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom