Dawn the gm is leaving indie 1031 anything to read into this?

[davideduardo]

"This happens so seldom that it is an anomoly, not a frequent occurance."

There is no way for us to really know this.

Yes, there is. Arbitron's software highlights for review abnormal household behaviour such as this, and ones that are less obvious (changes of a few tenths of a point) are generally caught in diary reviews by stations in each market.

Inaccurate reports and problems related to tiny sample sizes could be commonplace. The fact that it happened at all is cause for concern.

There will always be speeders and tax cheaters, too.

Whith diaries, there are two levels of detection, as I describe above, and, the most rigid one, the annual MRC audits where failure to have adequate controls would cause the system to fail accreditation.

 

[davideduardo]

well aware of the lack of ratings, I wouldn't expect you to understand nor do I care if you do,
but as a music fan,

I am a music fan, too. I have travelled thousands of miles for music events. It's just that I am not a fan of your music and you are almost certainly not a fan of mine.

indie has been the most diverse non corporate commercial station that has ever existed, there has never been anything better...

In YOUR opinion. Not in mine. And not in the opinion of about 12.7 million of the 13 million people in LA.

The Sound is not indie at all, however given the sad state of bad corporate radio in LA it is second best.

Again, in your opinion. Were the Shining Path to capture me, an effective torture would be to play Sound all day.

Don't assume that your taste is shared by all people. In the case of Indie, what you think is great is not even sampled by about 49 out of every 50 people in LA.

 

[hamNcheese]

Advertisers seem alright with Indie. Money talks.

 

[Indielover]

well aware of the lack of ratings, I wouldn't expect you to understand nor do I care if you do,
but as a music fan,

I am a music fan, too. I have travelled thousands of miles for music events. It's just that I am not a fan of your music and you are almost certainly not a fan of mine.

indie has been the most diverse non corporate commercial station that has ever existed, there has never been anything better...

In YOUR opinion. Not in mine. And not in the opinion of about 12.7 million of the 13 million people in LA.

The Sound is not indie at all, however given the sad state of bad corporate radio in LA it is second best.

Again, in your opinion. Were the Shining Path to capture me, an effective torture would be to play Sound all day.

Don't assume that your taste is shared by all people. In the case of Indie, what you think is great is not even sampled by about 49 out of every 50 people in LA.

Obviously, since we are discussing indie, it is indie's music that is in question here, again as I said I could care less about your opinion of indie or the sound...and no I don't assume my taste is shared by all people... an absurd statement.

 

[scooty430]

"Nobody listens" according to Arbitron.

Unfortunately, as I've always suspected, their ratings are not really very accurate.

Take a look at the story going on in Providence. A DJ's wife turned in six diaries that were faked - all written out to indicate heavy listening to her husband's show on WPRO.

After the discovery, Arbitron retracted the data and reissued the ratings. WPRO subsequently dropped from 4th to 9th place.

You mean to tell me that six little diaries carry that much weight? Unbelievable.

Now let's consider the switch to PPM in Los Angeles. Suddenly, some stations are way up, and some are way down. This can mean two things: either the ratings used for years were way off, or the PPM ratings are way off. (Or they are both way off.) Either way, that really doesn't reflect well on Arbitron.

As for Indie, people hip enough to listen to Indie would not be willing to wear a PPM for petty cash. They have a demo that is Westside, affluent, young, educated. It's been widely publicized that Arbitron is having a hard time finding people like this to wear the PPMs.

Indie has survived this long, and hopefully will continue. The ROAR I recently heard when Indie's name was announced at the Henry Ford Ampitheater's LA Film Festival tells me that "nobody listens" is complete B.S. More power to Indie.

The vanity of this position is so sad. The "hip" people who listen are either ignoring or being ignored & defrauded by the ratings system that, while certainly flawed, manages to put a relative order of listenership to the scores of radio stations in the Los Angeles area. Obviously, someone listens to Indie and enjoys it. But, what keeps getting confused in all of this emotional blather is that Indie is hardly registering in the lineup of radio stations in the market. Arbitron doesn't measure "hip" it measures exposure to the signal. That's all. And, this exposure dictates to a great degree, the business success of the enterprise. It has nothing to do with Providence anymore than a crooked ref means all NBA games are fixed. And, I'm sure Ralph Nader gets a big hand whenever he's introduced too. Doesn't mean his candidacy has a chance in hell.

I think a better sports analogy would be steroids in baseball. Everybody was cheating.

As for Ralph Nader, that analogy doesn't make sense. At a Nader rally, you've got an audience of Nader fans. At the LA Film Festival where they are showing a surfing movie to 2500 people, there is no real reason for the audience to be Indie fans. So when the host says, "tonight's show was sponsored by Indie 103," and the crowd hoots and hollers, that does say something. They didn't cheer for the other sponsors the host mentioned.

OK, for the sake of discussion: "Everybody" in baseball wasn't cheating. Careful with your hyperbolic facts.

At the LA Film Festival where they are showing a surfing movie to 2500 (1000) people, there is no real reason for the audience to be Indie fans. Why wouldn't there be Indie fans in the crowd? You just said, " So when the host says, "tonight's show was sponsored by Indie 103," and the crowd hoots and hollers, that does say something. They didn't cheer for the other sponsors the host mentioned. So, Indie sponsors a film showing, probably gave away free tickets to help pad the house, and you're impressed that the station got applause? Wow.

OK, you're right. Some guys weren't doping. But most were.

As for the LA Film Festival, there were many sponsors. Indie did not promote it on air, nor did they give away tickets. There was no need to "pad" the house, as this was a big deal film debut for Bruce Brown's son, who has a number of successful surf films under his belt. Brown's dad made the most famous surf movie of all time, Endless Summer.

 

[Indielover]

Advertisers seem alright with Indie. Money talks.

exactly this blohard could be dead wrong

 

[scooty430]

Not that it wasn't inevitable, but if this happens, a big shame indeed..commercial broadcast radio dies that day, aside from a few stations around the country...won't be much left but corporate crap...for LA there'll be the Sound (not indie, but the best there'll be until thats gone too...pathetic

The Sound is almost as low rated as Indie, and that on a full signal.

You are lamenting the passing of a station that is both signal challenged and at its lowest point in ratings ever, and placing on a pedastal a second station that listeners in LA have soundly rejected.

I'm well aware of the lack of ratings, I wouldn't expect you to understand nor do I care if you do, but as a music fan, indie has been the most diverse non corporate commercial station that has ever existed, there has never been anything better...The Sound is not indie at all, however given the sad state of bad corporate radio in LA it is second best.

To each his own, but I find the Sound to be very boring. It's safe tracks from a number of formats mixed together, with no specialty programs. Sound and Indie have almost nothing in common.

Indie has a better chance of surviving, simply because The Sound has invested lots of money in advertising, and a major corporation is expecting it to garner ratings. Indie is a shoestring operation, and they've never earned good ratings, nor has anything on that signal, to my knowledge.

 

[scooty430]

"This happens so seldom that it is an anomoly, not a frequent occurance."

There is no way for us to really know this.

Yes, there is. Arbitron's software highlights for review abnormal household behaviour such as this, and ones that are less obvious (changes of a few tenths of a point) are generally caught in diary reviews by stations in each market.

Inaccurate reports and problems related to tiny sample sizes could be commonplace. The fact that it happened at all is cause for concern.

There will always be speeders and tax cheaters, too.

Whith diaries, there are two levels of detection, as I describe above, and, the most rigid one, the annual MRC audits where failure to have adequate controls would cause the system to fail accreditation.

I think you are trying to paint the WPRO situation as less than it is. Consider these factors:

- Arbitron somehow did not notice that this household, this address, was the home of a Top 10 radio personality.

- It took a number of months before Arbitron noticed anything odd.

- It took outsiders to notice the connection between the host's hometown and the diaries. Aribtron did not make that connection.

- No red flags were raised when the host's wife told Arbitron there were six people living in a suburban household between 25 and 34. SIX people in that age range? Not suspicious?

- No red flags were raised when it showed that they listened to almost every minute of WPRO's morning show, and yet did no other radio listening.

- A number of commenters in the Providence thread admit they would do (or have done) the same kind of cheating if given the opportunity, only they'd be smarter about it - less obvious.

- A few posters also mention that one single diary, in the right demo, can "move the needle." That is not good statistics.

The PPM opens up even more problems, namely people being less willing to wear the things, even smaller sample sizes, people not wearing them consistently, and certain demos not wanting to wear monitoring devices as they distrust authority.

Bottom line - Aribtron probably gives an IDEA of what people listen to, but it is probably only a rough estimate.

 

[davideduardo]

- Arbitron somehow did not notice that this household, this address, was the home of a Top 10 radio personality.

Arbitron (and Nielsen) do not keep track of the addresses of on-air talent or employees of radio stations. We're talking about maybe 75,000 or so people for all the stations in all the rated markets. Heck, most stations I have worked with can't even keep an updated extension list of their own staff. Addresses, by the way, can be considered confidential.

- It took a number of months before Arbitron noticed anything odd.

No, it was spotted fairly quickly. The Spring book was not relased for that market until the end of July. As I said, it only changed the station a few tenths in one daypart, but it did get caught. Remember, the diaries may or may not have been in the talen's own home. The issue was spotted and corrected within days. the issuance was July 24 and the new, retabulated, book was issued on the 11th of August, about a dozen work days after the book was issued.

- It took outsiders to notice the connection between the host's hometown and the diaries. Aribtron did not make that connection.

Arbitron can not and does not track the residences of station staff. They ask a media affiliation question only. What was noticed was the considerable number of quarter hours in the household for one station, and Arbitron investigated.

- No red flags were raised when the host's wife told Arbitron there were six people living in a suburban household between 25 and 34. SIX people in that age range? Not suspicious?

No, the term is "dwelling units" and shared housing often has a number of people in the same age range. It could have been 6 interns at a hospital, 6 grad students, etc. It's quite common.

- No red flags were raised when it showed that they listened to almost every minute of WPRO's morning show, and yet did no other radio listening.

There are so many diaries that have heavylistening in only one daypart that this would not be at all unusual. I've been looking at diaries since 1970 in Beltsville, and you are questioning things those of us who have done it for decades know are quite normal. Not everyone lives in a "Leave it to Beaver" stereotypical home with a mom, a dad, two kids and a fluffy dog. I have gotten two books and one trend reissued myself, so I know there are errors on occasion. But you are looking at stuff that is quite normal in a random probability sample.

- A number of commenters in the Providence thread admit they would do (or have done) the same thing if given the opportunity, only they'd be smarter about it - less obvious.

And the fact is obvious from the outcome that they would not get away with it.

- A few posters also mention that one single diary, in the right demo, can "move the needle." That is not good statistics.

If radio needed a larger sample, it would pay for it. As it is, radio is paying as much as it can afford, so occasionaly there will be sample errors, minor inaccuracies and attempts to influence the book. And yet the system has worked for 43 years with seldom a real complaint

The PPM opens up even more problems, namely people being less willing to wear the things,

The participants are willing to wear them, and that is all that matters.

even smaller sample sizes,

If you knew what a panel was, you would know that we actually have about 4 times as large a sample for the PPM.

people not wearing them consistently,

They do, or they are removed from the panel.

and certain demos not wanting to wear monitoring devices as they distrust authority.

Untrue.

 

[Indielover]

Not that it wasn't inevitable, but if this happens, a big shame indeed..commercial broadcast radio dies that day, aside from a few stations around the country...won't be much left but corporate crap...for LA there'll be the Sound (not indie, but the best there'll be until thats gone too...pathetic

The Sound is almost as low rated as Indie, and that on a full signal.

You are lamenting the passing of a station that is both signal challenged and at its lowest point in ratings ever, and placing on a pedastal a second station that listeners in LA have soundly rejected.

I'm well aware of the lack of ratings, I wouldn't expect you to understand nor do I care if you do, but as a music fan, indie has been the most diverse non corporate commercial station that has ever existed, there has never been anything better...The Sound is not indie at all, however given the sad state of bad corporate radio in LA it is second best.

To each his own, but I find the Sound to be very boring. It's safe tracks from a number of formats mixed together, with no specialty programs. Sound and Indie have almost nothing in common.

Indie has a better chance of surviving, simply because The Sound has invested lots of money in advertising, and a major corporation is expecting it to garner ratings. Indie is a shoestring operation, and they've never earned good ratings, nor has anything on that signal, to my knowledge.

You are correct about the sound, there are way better AAA's...I was making the point of how bad LA commercial corporate radio is...aside from indie the sound is second best.

 

[Remaster]

Too bad they couldn't do a "show us your PPM" promotion. Not that INDIE would per se, just in general.


arbitron and commercial radio deserve each other

 

[BACKnUSSR]

I'm well aware of the lack of ratings, I wouldn't expect you to understand nor do I care if you do, but as a music fan, indie has been the most diverse non corporate commercial station that has ever existed, there has never been anything better...The Sound is not indie at all, however given the sad state of bad corporate radio in LA it is second best.

What is your definition of corporate radio anyway?
What is non-corporate about indie?

 

[Indielover]

I'm well aware of the lack of ratings, I wouldn't expect you to understand nor do I care if you do, but as a music fan, indie has been the most diverse non corporate commercial station that has ever existed, there has never been anything better...The Sound is not indie at all, however given the sad state of bad corporate radio in LA it is second best.

What is your definition of corporate radio anyway?
What is non-corporate about indie?

My "definition" is the same as everyones ....stations owned by Clear Channel, CBS, Emmis, etc. that program cookie cutter formats in each market, what's non-corporate about indie is the programming.

 

[davideduardo]

My "definition" is the same as everyones ....stations owned by Clear Channel, CBS, Emmis, etc. that program cookie cutter formats in each market, what's non-corporate about indie is the programming.

Of course, Entravision, Indie's owner, is one of the larger broadcast owners in the US. I think they have something around 70 stations.

The truth is that what you call "cookie cutter" is really the fact that people in each market want a CHR station, an AC or two, maybe an Urban station, a country station, a Spanish langauge station, etc. And since the hits will be about the same in each market, stations of any particular format will be quite similar from market to market, no matter if they are of the same ownership or not.

Apparently what makes a station "non cookie cutter" is low ratings and the absence of profit.

 

[Doctah]

Here's my "Can't we all just get along" post.

I think we can agree that (a) from a creative standpoint, Indie is great. Rolling Stone named it one of the country's best radio stations (or was it the best?) It's adventurous unlike just about any other commercial radio station, which -- for music fans -- is quite a treat.

and

(b) Indie is a ratings flop and a disappointing business.

The two can co-exist. Critics adore "Friday Night Lights," but it was a ratings bomb. Ditto "Mad Men."
Just like fans of those ratings misses can hope that their show survives (just as "Mad Men" will survive even though it's a ratings wreck) I think we can root for Indie while acknowledging that commercially it's a complete miss.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

What is your definition of corporate radio anyway?
What is non-corporate about indie?

My "definition" is the same as everyones ....stations owned by Clear Channel, CBS, Emmis, etc. that program cookie cutter formats in each market, what's non-corporate about indie is the programming.

So you like that they aren't own by a big corporate media entity.
Oh wait...............Entravision.

Then it must be that you like that they take "chances" and dont play the music released
by major labels. Oh wait...............they do.

What is it that's non-corporate about them again??
They've always been corporate, although I'd agree they seemed a bit more creative on the air and
got a bit more national attention when Michael Steele (a corporate programmer) was at the helm.

 

[Indielover]

What is your definition of corporate radio anyway?
What is non-corporate about indie?

My "definition" is the same as everyones ....stations owned by Clear Channel, CBS, Emmis, etc. that program cookie cutter formats in each market, what's non-corporate about indie is the programming.

So you like that they aren't own by a big corporate media entity.
Oh wait...............Entravision.

Then it must be that you like that they take "chances" and dont play the music released
by major labels. Oh wait...............they do.

What is it that's non-corporate about them again??
They've always been corporate, although I'd agree they seemed a bit more creative on the air and
got a bit more national attention when Michael Steele (a corporate programmer) was at the helm.

Yes I know they are owned by a corporation...and I never said they don't play music released by major labels...What is non-corporate about them again the PROGRAMMING..check out the numerous specialty programs, playing music that would NEVER be played on corporate radio....if you still don't agree perhaps it is your ignorance..take care buddy

 

[Indielover]

My "definition" is the same as everyones ....stations owned by Clear Channel, CBS, Emmis, etc. that program cookie cutter formats in each market, what's non-corporate about indie is the programming.

Of course, Entravision, Indie's owner, is one of the larger broadcast owners in the US. I think they have something around 70 stations.

The truth is that what you call "cookie cutter" is really the fact that people in each market want a CHR station, an AC or two, maybe an Urban station, a country station, a Spanish langauge station, etc. And since the hits will be about the same in each market, stations of any particular format will be quite similar from market to market, no matter if they are of the same ownership or not.

Apparently what makes a station "non cookie cutter" is low ratings and the absence of profit.

YOU are the biggest corporate cheerleader...indie is owned by a big corporation..NO SHIT..however it is not programmed as such, as I have said in past posts it is all about $$$..not quality in programming where you are concerned...fine...

you and "BackintheAssr" and the like are cheerleaders for the kind of programming that is killing terrestrial radio as we have known it...radio listening is down more and more each year ..so be it...the irony is indie has survived far past any "predictions" from the likes of you...I have many great memories of great radio that I grew up with...corporate owned sure...but not programmed as most are today...fact is terrestrial radio is dying..there are sooo many choices today..will you be around when it is finally done in a few years..doubtful at your age...but your kind will be at least partially responsible for its demise...choke on the money...

 

[Indielover]

Here's my "Can't we all just get along" post.

I think we can agree that (a) from a creative standpoint, Indie is great. Rolling Stone named it one of the country's best radio stations (or was it the best?) It's adventurous unlike just about any other commercial radio station, which -- for music fans -- is quite a treat.

and

(b) Indie is a ratings flop and a disappointing business.

The two can co-exist. Critics adore "Friday Night Lights," but it was a ratings bomb. Ditto "Mad Men."
Just like fans of those ratings misses can hope that their show survives (just as "Mad Men" will survive even though it's a ratings wreck) I think we can root for Indie while acknowledging that commercially it's a complete miss.

Good post, very true... but you are speaking to right wing individuals who are all about corporate CASH, blinded by $$$ and greed...they could care less about indie and music in general...so.. NO we can't all get along...but I and others who enjoy great radio have had the last laugh on this negative arrogant attitude for the last 5 years...6, 7, 8...we'll see..one thing is for sure Gleason knows NOTHING...that is a proven fact...

 

[davideduardo]

fact is terrestrial radio is dying..there are sooo many choices today..will you be around when it is finally done in a few years..doubtful at your age...but your kind will be at least partially responsible for its demise...choke on the money...

You are a nasty piece of work. Besides insinuating I am nearly dead (mother lived to nearly 100, grandparents into their 90s) you are exaggerating a very slow decline in radio TSL (and none in cume) and calling it "death" as well.

All because we (USSR and I) pointed out that Indie may play music you like, but obviously not a heck of a lot of other folks agree. You are, in essence, saying that your taste is better than mine or the next person's. That is arrogant and assumptive; you don't know that there are many people who like your personal choices in music yet you insist they do.