Dawn the gm is leaving indie 1031 anything to read into this?

[davideduardo]

but I and others who enjoy great radio have had the last laugh on this negative arrogant attitude for the last 5 years...6, 7, 8...we'll see..one thing is for sure Gleason knows NOTHING...that is a proven fact...

You really need to get a hold on the fact that it appears that most people do not like the music you like, and they have a right to enjoy what pleases them.

The music you like, that of Indie, is simply beyond annoying to me. And the music I like is for certain going to cause you much suffering. That's the way people and taste works.

Please let each person pick and choose what they care to listen to. Just because they do not like the things you enjoy does not mean they know nothing of music or have no appreciation of music... many do, and make choices different from yours.

 

[djmimi]

Hmmm...regardless of numbers, the people who do like Indie are passionate about the music, unlike a format like CHR where people are pretty fickle about artists, like where is Hilary Duff nowadays? Indielover does make a good point about how past programming may have driven people away from radio, altho' I would say the internet and ipod listening may have done more damage. Even Stern going to satellite affected radio (or at least KLSX's numbers).

David, I will say that I have an observation to make about your posts. We all dig your posts, even when we're having an argument. YOu are very analytical about radio. And very clever with numbers and statistics. The reason why I think many stations do things that puzzle you is because many people don't approach radio purely with an analytical point of view. I think that many people program with passion and it is that passion that tends to foster those formats that give you trouble figuring out why they even EXIST in the first place (case in point, AAA stations! Indie!).
Rock, especially, breeds radio that is born of passion. Indie, AAA are both formats which you condemn from your analysis, but I have to breath some relief that there are people who DO think that way, that they lean more toward passion in their programming than statistics because radio sure would be boring as hell. Or well, even more boring than it currently is (yeah, I'm kinda bored with radio ..altho' in my case, it's mostly because I have that Neil Young thing going where I can't really stand the poor quality of the digital domain and the low res of music being broadcasted. I think there are a great deal of radio people who went into radio because they, well, love rock music! So, if you are trying to find good people, you are more likely to run into folks who dig rock music in its many forms!!
Trust me, if I went into radio for the money...huh? what money?? See what I mean?
Anyway, it's all amusing to see you trying to grok the whole alt rock point of view...I think that for you it's kinda like you are seeing something that doesn't make sense in a movie (something like "why is it that space travelers always land on planets where they can breathe?") SO, it is with these strange formats that seemingly exist, breathing in an airless radio space, devoid of ratings and YET, might be making SOME money somewheres. At that point, you might need to just let go and "let art flow"...l

 

[Indielover]

but I and others who enjoy great radio have had the last laugh on this negative arrogant attitude for the last 5 years...6, 7, 8...we'll see..one thing is for sure Gleason knows NOTHING...that is a proven fact...

You really need to get a hold on the fact that it appears that most people do not like the music you like, and they have a right to enjoy what pleases them.

The music you like, that of Indie, is simply beyond annoying to me. And the music I like is for certain going to cause you much suffering. That's the way people and taste works.

Please let each person pick and choose what they care to listen to. Just because they do not like the things you enjoy does not mean they know nothing of music or have no appreciation of music... many do, and make choices different from yours.

You shouldn't assume the music you like would cause me "great suffering" as I am an open minded fan of music, unlike perhaps yourself.

As far indie, the station as a whole is great radio, the kind rarely found today. I have been quite clear of my understanding that indie is a) low rated and b) obviously not everyones taste...however that doesn't change the fact that it has "somehow" survived 5 years...seemingly to your dismay.

 

[Indielover]

fact is terrestrial radio is dying..there are sooo many choices today..will you be around when it is finally done in a few years..doubtful at your age...but your kind will be at least partially responsible for its demise...choke on the money...

You are a nasty piece of work. Besides insinuating I am nearly dead (mother lived to nearly 100, grandparents into their 90s) you are exaggerating a very slow decline in radio TSL (and none in cume) and calling it "death" as well.

All because we (USSR and I) pointed out that Indie may play music you like, but obviously not a heck of a lot of other folks agree. You are, in essence, saying that your taste is better than mine or the next person's. That is arrogant and assumptive; you don't know that there are many people who like your personal choices in music yet you insist they do.

And I'm sure you will live to 100 as well sir...I do apologize for that.

 

[AM FM listener]

Wow, terrific left brain vs. right brain stuff on this thread!

I believe there are other popular music genres that stir up people's passions too: hip-hop, r&b, latin and country, to name a few. But, your point, djmimi, is well taken. A balance of passion and analytics is what makes the world go 'round.

 

[Indielover]

Hmmm...regardless of numbers, the people who do like Indie are passionate about the music, unlike a format like CHR where people are pretty fickle about artists, like where is Hilary Duff nowadays? Indielover does make a good point about how past programming may have driven people away from radio, altho' I would say the internet and ipod listening may have done more damage. Even Stern going to satellite affected radio (or at least KLSX's numbers).

David, I will say that I have an observation to make about your posts. We all dig your posts, even when we're having an argument. YOu are very analytical about radio. And very clever with numbers and statistics. The reason why I think many stations do things that puzzle you is because many people don't approach radio purely with an analytical point of view. I think that many people program with passion and it is that passion that tends to foster those formats that give you trouble figuring out why they even EXIST in the first place (case in point, AAA stations! Indie!).
Rock, especially, breeds radio that is born of passion. Indie, AAA are both formats which you condemn from your analysis, but I have to breath some relief that there are people who DO think that way, that they lean more toward passion in their programming than statistics because radio sure would be boring as hell. Or well, even more boring than it currently is (yeah, I'm kinda bored with radio ..altho' in my case, it's mostly because I have that Neil Young thing going where I can't really stand the poor quality of the digital domain and the low res of music being broadcasted. I think there are a great deal of radio people who went into radio because they, well, love rock music! So, if you are trying to find good people, you are more likely to run into folks who dig rock music in its many forms!!
Trust me, if I went into radio for the money...huh? what money?? See what I mean?
Anyway, it's all amusing to see you trying to grok the whole alt rock point of view...I think that for you it's kinda like you are seeing something that doesn't make sense in a movie (something like "why is it that space travelers always land on planets where they can breathe?") SO, it is with these strange formats that seemingly exist, breathing in an airless radio space, devoid of ratings and YET, might be making SOME money somewheres. At that point, you might need to just let go and "let art flow"...l

Great post Mimi, your posts are intelligent and insightful...I was quite annoyed recently when some idiot insulted you in a response to your post..but you handled it very well...btw, I enjoy listening to you on the Sound...good luck with that..I hope it lasts at least as long as indie has.

 

[Kabrich]

"Nobody listens" according to Arbitron.

Unfortunately, as I've always suspected, their ratings are not really very accurate.

Take a look at the story going on in Providence. A DJ's wife turned in six diaries that were faked - all written out to indicate heavy listening to her husband's show on WPRO.

After the discovery, Arbitron retracted the data and reissued the ratings. WPRO subsequently dropped from 4th to 9th place.

You mean to tell me that six little diaries carry that much weight? Unbelievable.

Now let's consider the switch to PPM in Los Angeles. Suddenly, some stations are way up, and some are way down. This can mean two things: either the ratings used for years were way off, or the PPM ratings are way off. (Or they are both way off.) Either way, that really doesn't reflect well on Arbitron.

As for Indie, people hip enough to listen to Indie would not be willing to wear a PPM for petty cash. They have a demo that is Westside, affluent, young, educated. It's been widely publicized that Arbitron is having a hard time finding people like this to wear the PPMs.

Indie has survived this long, and hopefully will continue. The ROAR I recently heard when Indie's name was announced at the Henry Ford Ampitheater's LA Film Festival tells me that "nobody listens" is complete B.S. More power to Indie.

Sorry to interupt the Providence/indie rock love fest...

As you said - with PPM some stations went up....some stations went down..... one thing stayed the same....KSWD and KDLD are still near the bottom of the ratings with Diary and PPM - no matter the method.

12+ KSWD and KDLD barely broke a 1 share - combined.

That's pretty simple to understand.

Now back to the Providence West thread.....

 

[davideduardo]

David, I will say that I have an observation to make about your posts. We all dig your posts, even when we're having an argument. YOu are very analytical about radio. And very clever with numbers and statistics. The reason why I think many stations do things that puzzle you is because many people don't approach radio purely with an analytical point of view.

First, Indie does not puzzle me. What, if anything, amazes me is that any format on that combo has lasted the time Indie has, based on the signal.

I certainly understand that the format, originally a product of the Clear Channel JSA, has a specific appeal and attraction. Market factors, starting with coverage and extending to the market's extremely high ethnic composition have also affected the potential for Indie... or whatever has and will be on those channels.

I think that many people program with passion and it is that passion that tends to foster those formats that give you trouble figuring out why they even EXIST in the first place (case in point, AAA stations! Indie!).

I am very fascinated by heritage AAAs like Bob Greenlee's (sp?) KBCO in the Denver market. Long before CCU owned it... I was in an idea exchange group that included Bob. KBCO captured the feel of Denver in the early days of successful FM and pretty much created AAA from paying attention to local market needs and moods.

Unlike "Indiefan" I don't have to like a kind of music to like a radio station. KBCO represents usic I truly can not bear to hear, but I think the station and its history are marvelous. Radio stations are not built and programmed to please me or the radio insiders...

Rock, especially, breeds radio that is born of passion.

All along I have said, directly or obliquely, that nearly all kinds of music are driven by passion. And well done stations that play each type of music are similarly passionate within the genre. I don't think it is fair to give rock any special consideration in this regard. It's just one of many kinds of music that are deeply loved by their partisans and fans.

Indie, AAA are both formats which you condemn from your analysis, but I have to breath some relief that there are people who DO think that way, that they lean more toward passion in their programming than statistics because radio sure would be boring as hell.

This is not about passion. It's about reality. I don't condemn either of those stations but I do say that both are failures under the new ratings system. As Randy says, together they do not get a share of listening, and Indie is just a tiny bit above the minimum cutoff point for not even appearing in the ratings. Sound is a bit above that, but looks condemned to failure unless a major change is put in place.

Anyway, it's all amusing to see you trying to grok the whole alt rock point of view...I think that for you it's kinda like you are seeing something that doesn't make sense in a movie (something like "why is it that space travelers always land on planets where they can breathe?") SO, it is with these strange formats that seemingly exist, breathing in an airless radio space, devoid of ratings and YET, might be making SOME money somewheres. At that point, you might need to just let go and "let art flow"...l

In the end, it is always about rock. Take a look at the ratings in any significant market... rock is not a majority format. In fact, no format today is. The diversity and appeal of America has much to do with the diversity of artistic expression, with everything from ultra-niche Cajun and Arcadian music to hip hop and pop and rock and county and Tejano and blues and r&b being mostly American expressions.

For my favorite station (one I have never worked for) and music, go to http://www.lavallenata.com/ and click on Escuche Ahora to listen. For the station I helped build as consultant I am most proud of check http://www.mega983.com.ar/ where pressing the little icon will give you the stream of Argentina's first rock station that plays only rock by Argentine artists... from 1967 to today.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

As Randy says, together they do not get a share of listening, and Indie is just a tiny bit above the minimum cutoff point for not even appearing in the ratings. The Sound is a bit above that, but looks condemned to failure unless a major change is put in place.

What major change would you suggest while still being true to the format (AAA)?

 

[Indielover]

"Unlike "Indiefan" I don't have to like a kind of music to like a radio station. KBCO represents usic I truly can not bear to hear, but I think the station and its history are marvelous. Radio stations are not built and programmed to please me or the radio insiders..."

What you fail to realize is to "like" indie (the whole station) IS to like many different musical styles and genres...

 

[Indielover]

David knows his stuff, no question. Maybe Indie has been around for a while because Entravision is satisfied with the revenue from it. These are weaker signals that can't compete with full-market signals adequately as a full-market signal can and it fills a niche.

Name another station in the history of commercial radio w/ this many specialty shows:

http://www.indie1031.fm/shows.php ;D

I believe that is exactly why it has survived...we have those weak little signals to thank..out of which we get the greatest most diverse commercial station ever...with a great internet stream..I have never had to worry about reception issues here as I have been listening from the east coast from day one on the crystal clear internet stream..

 

[davideduardo]

"Unlike "Indiefan" I don't have to like a kind of music to like a radio station. KBCO represents usic I truly can not bear to hear, but I think the station and its history are marvelous. Radio stations are not built and programmed to please me or the radio insiders..."

What you fail to realize is to "like" indie (the whole station) IS to like many different musical styles and genres...

To the ear of an outsider, it is all pretty much the same. I can't tell much difference, just as you probably could not tell the difference between a porro, a gaita, a mapayé and a cumbia. You see, I have a personal passion for other types of music, and that passion is just as real as yours. But it is for a different musical genre.

You seem to be taking the position that the format, or the music, on Indie is somehow superior to, let's say, hip hop. Or country. Or dance.

No form of music is superior. Just different. Live and let live, please.

 

[Indielover]

"Unlike "Indiefan" I don't have to like a kind of music to like a radio station. KBCO represents usic I truly can not bear to hear, but I think the station and its history are marvelous. Radio stations are not built and programmed to please me or the radio insiders..."

What you fail to realize is to "like" indie (the whole station) IS to like many different musical styles and genres...

To the ear of an outsider, it is all pretty much the same. I can't tell much difference, just as you probably could not tell the difference between a porro, a gaita, a mapayé and a cumbia. You see, I have a personal passion for other types of music, and that passion is just as real as yours. But it is for a different musical genre.

You seem to be taking the position that the format, or the music, on Indie is somehow superior to, let's say, hip hop. Or country. Or dance.

No form of music is superior. Just different. Live and let live, please.

I suppose you are right.. country, dance, classic jazz, classic rock, modern rock, reggae, roots music dating back to the 20's...yeah it all sounds the same...to someone without an open mind.

FYI...hip hop, country, dance..all genres that are heard on indie...

 

[SuperRadioFan]

David you have no answer?

So David you have no response to my question at the bottom of page 5?

 

[Indielover]

Re: David you have no answer?

So David you have no response to my question at the bottom of page 5?

LOL, I noticed that too...it turns out the "all knowing" great seer is a fraud. There was a time when I respected his posts but have come to realize he knows nothing...for example his original post about an KLYY simulcast on the 1031's was just his conjecture.

 

[davideduardo]

As Randy says, together they do not get a share of listening, and Indie is just a tiny bit above the minimum cutoff point for not even appearing in the ratings. The Sound is a bit above that, but looks condemned to failure unless a major change is put in place.

What major change would you suggest while still being true to the format (AAA)?

A different format. The demos of LA simply do not support AAA in any form that purists would call "true to the format." .

 

[davideduardo]

Re: David you have no answer?

LOL, I noticed that too...it turns out the "all knowing" great seer is a fraud. There was a time when I respected his posts but have come to realize he knows nothing...for example his original post about an KLYY simulcast on the 1031's was just his conjecture.

No, it was not conjecture.

1. KLYY recently changed from "cumbia caliente" to Spanish Adult Hits.
2. KLYY has holes in its LA coverage.
3. KLYY requested listing by Arbitron as having LA as its home market.
4. Entravision is an Hispanic company, predominantly
5. 103.1 has simulcast 97.5 before, for several years from Fall 2000 to Spring of 2003
6. 103.1 just lost their station manager
7. 103.1 just lost its sales agreement
8. KLYY's new format has done much better than the old one.
9. There has apparently been some informal chatting at the agencies about whether this would be a good move.

I would like nothing better than for Indie to stay Indie. Having it simulcast 97.5 has no appeal to me But there is a real volue of evidence to support a change.

By the way, things like that do not happen overnight. Hopefully, they will name a new manager, do something about sales, and keep on as they are. But if any of those do not happen, they certainly are going to have an alternative plan.

 

[Indielover]

Re: David you have no answer?

LOL, I noticed that too...it turns out the "all knowing" great seer is a fraud. There was a time when I respected his posts but have come to realize he knows nothing...for example his original post about an KLYY simulcast on the 1031's was just his conjecture.

No, it was not conjecture.

1. KLYY recently changed from "cumbia caliente" to Spanish Adult Hits.
2. KLYY has holes in its LA coverage.
3. KLYY requested listing by Arbitron as having LA as its home market.
4. Entravision is an Hispanic company, predominantly
5. 103.1 has simulcast 97.5 before, for several years from Fall 2000 to Spring of 2003
6. 103.1 just lost their station manager
7. 103.1 just lost its sales agreement
8. KLYY's new format has done much better than the old one.
9. There has apparently been some informal chatting at the agencies about whether this would be a good move.

I would like nothing better than for Indie to stay Indie. Having it simulcast 97.5 has no appeal to me But there is a real volue of evidence to support a change.

By the way, things like that do not happen overnight. Hopefully, they will name a new manager, do something about sales, and keep on as they are. But if any of those do not happen, they certainly are going to have an alternative plan.

Thanks for the detailed explanation, I realize the possibility of this happening, and frankly as a business move.... it would seemingly be a smart one for Entravision. Furthermore I realize indie is on "borrowed time"...people that work there realize this as well... I spoke with DJ "Mr. Shovel" early in the year, and he basically said "enjoy it while it lasts"

 

[SuperRadioFan]

The Sound is a bit above that, but looks condemned to failure unless a major change is put in place.

What major change would you suggest while still being true to the format (AAA)?

A different format. The demos of LA simply do not support AAA in any form that purists would call "true to the format." .

LOL, before I read your response, I knew you were going to say that! My friend, you are becoming way too predictable.

If I had made your post, here's what I would have said in the first place!!:
"The Sound is a bit above that, but looks condemned to failure given the demographic make up of the market."

As I see it, David, this genre is above and beyond your pay grade to analyze because you don't like the music, don't understand the music, don't empathize with the listeners, don't relate to the listeners, you don't get it. Those statement also apply to the format/programming/music on Indie 103.1. I say that with all due respect, David, no one knows everything about everything, even you.

 

[davideduardo]

As I see it, David, this genre is above and beyond your pay grade to analyze because you don't like the music, don't understand the music, don't empathize with the listeners, don't relate to the listeners, you don't get it. Those statement also apply to the format/programming/music on Indie 103.1. I say that with all due respect, David, no one knows everything about everything, even you.

It does not matter whether I like or enjoy a kind of music. It is qute easy to see what groups, demos, lifestyles and such like AAA.

It is then a rather short leap to determining the broad strokes of whether there are enough of that "kind" of listener in LA to sustain such a format in the PPM world that began the last Thursday of June of this year.

For good or bad, that is the way management and ownership of stations evaluate market opportunities. Like any marketing company, from P&G to Hasbro, have a percentage of successes and a percentage of failures.