Dees and Roy Back Together Again At One Of The Failing CBS Properties!

[Jay F]

Dees was tied for eighth in adults 25-54 when he was canned in 2003, according to an article in R&R.

Seacrest has been in the top five in the same demo for most of his tenure, and occassionally reached #1.

Keep in mind that KIIS shifted their music more rhythmic around the same time they made the change in mornings. I believe this plays a large role in the stations success. I'm not saying it wasn't a good decision to put Seacrest on mornings, but if KIIS was still playing the pop rock music which was wrong for the market, Seacrest may not be #1.

 

[Kabrich]

Oh David..... you must really lack shame. :-\

Seems with a screen name like yours, you're the one lacking shame. David Eduardo has more knowledge about the business than any 10 of us.

David E. may be knowledgeable, but more than any 10 people here? Mr. Kabrich needs to check in right about now, I think.

Some people live for an image on message boards. I prefer to do it in real life. It pays much better than posts on messages boards.

 

[Kabrich]

Dees was tied for eighth in adults 25-54 when he was canned in 2003, according to an article in R&R.

Seacrest has been in the top five in the same demo for most of his tenure, and occassionally reached #1.

8th place? That's wishful thinking on someone's behalf. Dees was let go in Feb of 2004, fwiw.

Person 25-54 for KIIS-FM 6a-10a

Winter 2003 8th tie
Spring 2003 10th tie
Summer 2003 17th tie
Fall 2003 18th place


Post Dees:
Spring 2004 19th
Summer 2004 11th
Fall 2004 10th tie
Winter 2005 6th
Spring 2005 4th
Summer 2005 8th tie
Fall 2005 7th tie
Winter 2006 3rd tie
Spring 2006 3rd tie
Summer 2006 3rd
Fall 2006 2nd tie
Winter 2007 2nd
Spring 2007 2nd
Summer 2007 2nd
Fall 2007 2nd
Winter 2008 #1

Give credit where its due!

 

[DToTheJ]

I do believe that CBS may have learned their lesson about putting talent in AM drive on JACK. Look at Steve Dahl in Chicago. The numbers dropped way below the station average. So it would be very unwise to mess with something that is working?

Well, when CBS was getting ready to flip Dahl's old home at 105.9 FM from FM talk to AC, they decided to park him on another property. Can't say that Jack-FM in Chicago is "working", or whether or not it works better than Dahl in AM drive, when folks were used to hearing him (a Chicago institution) in PM drive...

 

[davideduardo]

Some people live for an image on message boards. I prefer to do it in real life. It pays much better than posts on messages boards.

And some people's real life achievements can be enhanced by dialog with others on boards or even in street intercepts!

 

[4UH8SIMBKAGN]

If one was a forward thinker, a strategizer, such as Clear Channel was about the PPM for Los Angeles, they would have made or suggested formatic adjustments BEFORE the pre-currency PPM results for Los Angeles were even released. There was plenty of data available to suggest what was to come.

Yeah, there was that data from Houston, the only MRC accredited market, that suggested that Cumulus was very smart because they moved KRBE away from CHR and towards a more Hot AC position. The fact that the move worked does not seem to have impressed anyone.

Since PPM seems to be providing a slightly different view in each market, nobody could have forecast the KIIS surge. One thing to keep in mind is that the effect of LA being about 55% Hispanic in 18-34 could not really be projected into pre-PPM thinking as no market with similar ethnicity had been surveyed by the PPM.

Sure, lots of stations are making PPM methodology adjustments prior to the arriva of data, but few stations are really making huge format changes without first seeing some data.

Not true. Clear Channel expected the surge that KIIS has received. Clear Channel also refocused many, many months ago both Star and KBIG based on results from Houston and Philadelphia and they were correct in doing so. No doubt, Clear Channel was really the only company in L.A. that was on the ball for the PPM. Emmis, CBS Radio and others would be in a much better position today if they had done the same. Of course when it comes to Emmis, they didn't have a clue even in the diary days and we're not talking about just Movin. They've got problems elsewhere.

Even on THIS board, in this forum, there ARE plenty of pre-PPM results for Los Angeles posts expecting that KIIS would be the top station in the market, amongst other stations that were expected by posters to do better or worse once the PPM started in L.A. They were right. Certain results were expected and in most cases, that is exactly what has happened. Looks like this board does have many forward radio strategizers...but not everyone, of course, can be.

 

[davideduardo]

Not true. Clear Channel expected the surge that KIIS has received.

Funny. KSC in Chicago, the very same company, moved 6.4 in Spring diary to 5.2 in August Week 1 PPM. Nobody was 100% prepared because, as was said at the Morning Show Bootcamp, there are no PPM experts. Every market is showing different variants. And, as I said, there is no PPM market like LA out yet, what with 50% Hispanics in 18-34 and less than 25% non-immigrant, non-hispanic whites in the demo.

Clear Channel also refocused many, many months ago both Star and KBIG based on results from Houston and Philadelphia and they were correct in doing so.

Star was refocused to bite KROQ and keep it from challeninging KIIS' billing as much as it is today. KBIG simply needed a change. To say it was a PPM strategy is simplistic. It was a market strategy, with the coming of PPM part of it. Using any results in Philadelphia, which is not even 5% Hispanic, in LA is absurd.

No doubt, Clear Channel was really the only company in L.A. that was on the ball for the PPM.

Hardly. Each company had its strategy, and in some cases "wait and see" was the right strategy since there was no real way to predict the unique LA market.

Even on THIS board, in this forum, there ARE plenty of pre-PPM results for Los Angeles posts expecting that KIIS would be the top station in the market, amongst other stations that were expected by posters to do better or worse once the PPM started in L.A. They were right. Certain results were expected and in most cases, that is exactly what has happened. Looks like this board does have many forward radio strategizers...but not everyone, of course, can be.

It took from 1965 to 2008 for the diary based surveyed stations to "level out" so it might take a while for the lower rated non-Spanish language stations to level each other out, but they will.

What else do you think, Glen?

 

[Kabrich]

If one was a forward thinker, a strategizer, such as Clear Channel was about the PPM for Los Angeles, they would have made or suggested formatic adjustments BEFORE the pre-currency PPM results for Los Angeles were even released. There was plenty of data available to suggest what was to come.

Yeah, there was that data from Houston, the only MRC accredited market, that suggested that Cumulus was very smart because they moved KRBE away from CHR and towards a more Hot AC position. The fact that the move worked does not seem to have impressed anyone.

Since PPM seems to be providing a slightly different view in each market, nobody could have forecast the KIIS surge. One thing to keep in mind is that the effect of LA being about 55% Hispanic in 18-34 could not really be projected into pre-PPM thinking as no market with similar ethnicity had been surveyed by the PPM.

Sure, lots of stations are making PPM methodology adjustments prior to the arriva of data, but few stations are really making huge format changes without first seeing some data.

Not true. Clear Channel expected the surge that KIIS has received. Clear Channel also refocused many, many months ago both Star and KBIG based on results from Houston and Philadelphia and they were correct in doing so. No doubt, Clear Channel was really the only company in L.A. that was on the ball for the PPM. Emmis, CBS Radio and others would be in a much better position today if they had done the same. Of course when it comes to Emmis, they didn't have a clue even in the diary days and we're not talking about just Movin. They've got problems elsewhere.

Even on THIS board, in this forum, there ARE plenty of pre-PPM results for Los Angeles posts expecting that KIIS would be the top station in the market, amongst other stations that were expected by posters to do better or worse once the PPM started in L.A. They were right. Certain results were expected and in most cases, that is exactly what has happened. Looks like this board does have many forward radio strategizers...but not everyone, of course, can be.

Unlike others, I agree that CC expected the KIIS surge as could be seen with the success of Z100 with data that has been known for 11 Arbitron months (Every Month is February in Arbitron Months = 28 days) of data. Furthermore, as English Speaking Hispanics are indexing well below 100, while Spanish speaking Hispanics are Indexing at 140, the english stations that get those undersampled English Speaking Hispanics are weighted up and with KIIS's Cume, it was absolutely expected. When you undersample or do not meet the target, it's the lower cume stations that get missed.

I disagree that CC shifted KBIG for PPM - the rumor and signals were strong that KMVN was to make a switch to Fresh and CC played the card to block Emmis of any potential switch there and in the process they had to better define the lanes for both stations. If KMVN had gone Fresh, its audience would have made an impact from KYSR and KBIG, so it made plenty of sense and was good strategy on their behalf.

 

[davideduardo]

Unlike others, I agree that CC expected the KIIS surge as could be seen with the success of Z100 with data that has been known for 11 Arbitron months (Every Month is February in Arbitron Months = 28 days) of data.

The relationship between Z100 and KIIS is, at best, serendipitous and not corelatable. The NY Metro does not have the same ethnic componant that drove Z100. Z is about 23% Hispanic, and 13% Black, while KIIS is 48% Hispanic and about 7% Black. Of course, the listeners in NY are anything but Mexican (Dominican, Colombian, Ecuadorian and Puerto Rican are the major groups) while in LA the Hispanic audience of KIIS is almost totally Mexican. Anyone who has programmed in those 5 countries knows how radically different they are.

Furthermore, as English Speaking Hispanics are indexing well below 100, while Spanish speaking Hispanics are Indexing at 140, the english stations that get those undersampled English Speaking Hispanics are weighted up and with KIIS's Cume, it was absolutely expected. When you undersample or do not meet the target, it's the lower cume stations that get missed.

Except that "English dominant" Hispanics (there are English "speakers" in the "Spanish dominant" group, too) include bilinguals, a group which takes two forms... second or third generation who speak Spanish at home and English outside, and those of first generation who are bilingual by having learned English, but are uncomfortable with English langauge media, and, particularly, music that is not of their culture.

For these and other reasons, assuming KIIS parallels Z100 is not logical.

 

[radio124]

So basically, David, the Z100 audience is 36% Black and Hispanic while the KIIS audience is 55%. Is the remaining 64% for Z100 and 45% for KIIS considered non-Hispanic White or is it broken down further into subgroups such as Asian, Middle Eastern. etc.? Thank you for your answer.

 

[RealityBites]

I'm not so sure that going against KIIS with another CHR is such a good idea and it has zero to do with numbers and ratings. It is 100% loyalty and image. About 2 years ago Boy Toy Jesse replaced Valentine in PM drive. Valentine had been there for over 10 years. The first book came out and did the ratings drop? No...in fact they went up. The same thing happened when Suzy Tavarez left KIIS and Sisanie (a 23 year old unknown) took her place. One again, the ratings went up. Boy Toy and Suzy aren't spectacular, they do relate to the KIIS audience a touch more because they are younger. My point is that other than AM drive, they have replaced long term DJ's and it didn't affect them at all. Ryan Seacrest and the morning show drive the entire station. Ryan signed a 3 year deal 6 months ago. When that deal ends, I predict him to move on. That would be the only time to go against KIIS. There's a huge loyalty to that station with the youth and mom's out there. As long as Ryan is on KIIS, no one will break them. And I can't stand the music on that station, but with CHR it really isn't about the quality of the music. It's all about image and popularity of the music......

 

[davideduardo]

So basically, David, the Z100 audience is 36% Black and Hispanic while the KIIS audience is 55%. Is the remaining 64% for Z100 and 45% for KIIS considered non-Hispanic White or is it broken down further into subgroups such as Asian, Middle Eastern. etc.? Thank you for your answer.

Arbitron only has three breaks, non-Hispanic white (they call it "other"), Hispanic and Black.

In LA, in what would be the closest to the salable KIIS target, 18-34, we have nearly 55% Hispanic, about 8% Black and around 12% Asian. We also have about 10% who are first generation immigrants, mostly Eastern Europe, Russia, Persian and Middle Eastern.

New York is only, overall, about 21% Hispanic, with a much larger over-55 group (mostly the 50's and 60's Puerto Rican immigration which ended about 1968 / 69)

We know from the Census and the Census's American Community Survey what the approximate break of individual Hispanic origins are (NY here has almost no commonality with LA) as well as Asian and other origins.

 

[4UH8SIMBKAGN]

I'm not so sure that going against KIIS with another CHR is such a good idea and it has zero to do with numbers and ratings. It is 100% loyalty and image. About 2 years ago Boy Toy Jesse replaced Valentine in PM drive. Valentine had been there for over 10 years. The first book came out and did the ratings drop? No...in fact they went up. The same thing happened when Suzy Tavarez left KIIS and Sisanie (a 23 year old unknown) took her place. One again, the ratings went up. Boy Toy and Suzy aren't spectacular, they do relate to the KIIS audience a touch more because they are younger. My point is that other than AM drive, they have replaced long term DJ's and it didn't affect them at all. Ryan Seacrest and the morning show drive the entire station. Ryan signed a 3 year deal 6 months ago. When that deal ends, I predict him to move on. That would be the only time to go against KIIS. There's a huge loyalty to that station with the youth and mom's out there. As long as Ryan is on KIIS, no one will break them. And I can't stand the music on that station, but with CHR it really isn't about the quality of the music. It's all about image and popularity of the music......

There is NO loyalty to radio staions in Los Angeles. At best, we're fickle. Present us a new, fresher product, something that is hip and hot, something that's a new fad and we're there. We'll dump the old guy no matter how well they are doing. Anytime is a great to go against KIIS as long as the station presents something new to the market and has the money to support its promotion. Some decent, imaginative management would be good too but I'm probably in fantasyland there.

KIIS has had it happen to them before when Power 106 trounced them in the 80's (and KIIS was higher rated then than it is now) and The Beat nearly did the same in the 90's. For that matter, The Beat also nearly put Power 106 in the trash heap from their #1 status. Not only can it happen again, that's the proof it happend before.

 

[davideduardo]

There is NO loyalty to radio staions in Los Angeles. At best, we're fickle. Present us a new, fresher product, something that is hip and hot, something that's a new fad and we're there. We'll dump the old guy no matter how well they are doing.

That ought to be a sticky at the top of all the boards. Well stated, too.

I love it when someone thinks "heritage" is a loyalty preserver. Your heritage is only as good as your last hour on the air. Play a stiff on a heritage station, and the listeners leave just like they do on a newer station.

 

[4UH8SIMBKAGN]

Not true. Clear Channel expected the surge that KIIS has received.

Funny. KSC in Chicago, the very same company, moved 6.4 in Spring diary to 5.2 in August Week 1 PPM. Nobody was 100% prepared because, as was said at the Morning Show Bootcamp, there are no PPM experts. Every market is showing different variants. And, as I said, there is no PPM market like LA out yet, what with 50% Hispanics in 18-34 and less than 25% non-immigrant, non-hispanic whites in the demo.

Clear Channel also refocused many, many months ago both Star and KBIG based on results from Houston and Philadelphia and they were correct in doing so.

Star was refocused to bite KROQ and keep it from challeninging KIIS' billing as much as it is today. KBIG simply needed a change. To say it was a PPM strategy is simplistic. It was a market strategy, with the coming of PPM part of it. Using any results in Philadelphia, which is not even 5% Hispanic, in LA is absurd.

No doubt, Clear Channel was really the only company in L.A. that was on the ball for the PPM.

Hardly. Each company had its strategy, and in some cases "wait and see" was the right strategy since there was no real way to predict the unique LA market.

Even on THIS board, in this forum, there ARE plenty of pre-PPM results for Los Angeles posts expecting that KIIS would be the top station in the market, amongst other stations that were expected by posters to do better or worse once the PPM started in L.A. They were right. Certain results were expected and in most cases, that is exactly what has happened. Looks like this board does have many forward radio strategizers...but not everyone, of course, can be.

It took from 1965 to 2008 for the diary based surveyed stations to "level out" so it might take a while for the lower rated non-Spanish language stations to level each other out, but they will.

What else do you think, Glen?

Why are you writing about Chicago? Who mentioned Chicago other than you? KIIS was expected to be #1 and the numbers are no surprise. Just a little bit of a bonus beyond what was expected. I'd like to know who didn't expect those results. Those are the people who don't belong in this business as they can't see into the future.

Star was refocused primarily to prepare for the PPM with the expected surge of KROQ under the PPM. Saying that the PPM results from Houston and Philadelphia were not the guiding reason behind the discussions obviously means you have no inside CCLA info. Maybe you should have been in on the emergency meeting after the first (poor) diary numbers came out for the new Star. Certainly seeing the "surge" in particular formats in Philadelphia and Houston under the PPM led to the decision. Your denial is absurd.

Same goes for KBIG although certainly I can agree with Kabrich based on "rumblings" from Emmis of a Fresh move made them move their game plan up. It simply wasn't "refreshed" and the adjustment of Star's format was a big part of it as well.

Let's see what "wait and see" results were the right ones. LIST THEM. Other than KLOS, I can't think of any. Clear Channel made bold moves in L.A. prior to the PPM and they paid off. End of story. Now they just need to figure out what to do with Hot.

Unique? Los Angeles isn't any more "unique" than any other market. How many "cookie cutter" formats have made it elsewhere as well as L.A.? I don't see any formats in L.A. that are "unique". What are you posting about?

I don't know what your last line has to do with anything. It certainly does not answer the FACT many on this board and in the industry EXPECTED a certain outcome of the first PPM results for Los Angeles and they were correct

 

[Kabrich]

Unlike others, I agree that CC expected the KIIS surge as could be seen with the success of Z100 with data that has been known for 11 Arbitron months (Every Month is February in Arbitron Months = 28 days) of data.

The relationship between Z100 and KIIS is, at best, serendipitous and not corelatable. The NY Metro does not have the same ethnic componant that drove Z100. Z is about 23% Hispanic, and 13% Black, while KIIS is 48% Hispanic and about 7% Black. Of course, the listeners in NY are anything but Mexican (Dominican, Colombian, Ecuadorian and Puerto Rican are the major groups) while in LA the Hispanic audience of KIIS is almost totally Mexican. Anyone who has programmed in those 5 countries knows how radically different they are.

Furthermore, as English Speaking Hispanics are indexing well below 100, while Spanish speaking Hispanics are Indexing at 140, the english stations that get those undersampled English Speaking Hispanics are weighted up and with KIIS's Cume, it was absolutely expected. When you undersample or do not meet the target, it's the lower cume stations that get missed.

Except that "English dominant" Hispanics (there are English "speakers" in the "Spanish dominant" group, too) include bilinguals, a group which takes two forms... second or third generation who speak Spanish at home and English outside, and those of first generation who are bilingual by having learned English, but are uncomfortable with English langauge media, and, particularly, music that is not of their culture.

For these and other reasons, assuming KIIS parallels Z100 is not logical.

spin it however you want as you are smarter than any other 10 people on radio-info,com so we are told :

However, as I have worked over the years with KIIS and Z100, I believe I do have just a little knowledge as to the stations and the markets. It goes much further than the audience composition, perhaps if you'd get out on the street and talk to people instead of spending your life posting on internet threads you'd learn there is more to radio than traveling between your office and the Arbitron Building to review data.

Next I suppose you will tell me I don't know Rig Dees, even though I known him longer than anyone in radio, since he was a pool lifeguard, and I believe I know his positives and negatives better than most from over that time.

 

[Kabrich]

There is NO loyalty to radio staions in Los Angeles. At best, we're fickle. Present us a new, fresher product, something that is hip and hot, something that's a new fad and we're there. We'll dump the old guy no matter how well they are doing.

That ought to be a sticky at the top of all the boards. Well stated, too.

I love it when someone thinks "heritage" is a loyalty preserver. Your heritage is only as good as your last hour on the air. Play a stiff on a heritage station, and the listeners leave just like they do on a newer station.

There's a huge difference between Heritage and Loyalty. WOR has heritage. Learn the difference and you'll learn how to make a great station that does hold up over time. Put passion in your product and you won't be a sitting duck.

Rick Dees lost this passion ions ago, in my opinion. Passion doesn't involve showing up at 6:45am. KRTH can count their blessings that he ended up changing his mind on that job - as he wanted Jack-fm instead.

And how does Realitybites with only 6 posts understand this when you are smarter than any 10 people combined on radio-info.com ???

In a novel way, its interesting that Roy's wife Ellen K. proved she was more important to the ratings that Rick was.

 

[RicoGregg]

And how does Realitybites with only 6 posts understand this when you are smarter than any 10 people combined on radio-info.com ???

Let's clear the air here:

First of all, I said that David Eduardo KNOWS more than any 10 people at R-I. I'm finding that I owe Mr. Eduardo an apology. I did not mean to embarrass him. I aimed the remark at an annoying poster who truly knows nothing, but kept stating that David Eduardo knows nothing repeatedly. Mr. Eduardo has never failed to impress me with his knowledge and his ability to post both tactfully and informatively.

David Eduardo, I apologize PROFUSELY!

Can we be reasonable here and not use the remark against someone who didn't say it?

If the heat for the remark, which was totally meant as a compliment, should be aimed at someone, aim it at me.

 

[SandyG]

How about this? Rick Dees retires after Movin flips to an all 1981 station ironically called RICK RADIO (named after Rick Springfield, not Rick Dees), KLSX 97.1 becomes KNHH a farm report station starring Don Imus, then, the Wave goes 24/7 Kenny G as they change their call letters to KGGG and all of the 97.1 FM Talk crew heads over to 980AM to replace KFWB with the new calls KROY.

 

[davideduardo]

There's a huge difference between Heritage and Loyalty.

Heritage, alone, is a flavorless commodity; it just means the station is old. Heritage has to be coupled with present day greatness to create loyalty.

It's about "what have you done for me today."

Loyalty may be enhanced by heritage. A station that is compelling for a long time has a greater chance of getting written in the diary because it is memorable, not just because it is old. An old station may have heritage in a market from which we get the "oh, I remember when i used to listen to them..." comments so common in listener interviews.

WOR has heritage.

And practically no 25-54 listening (or hearing, even). ;D

Learn the difference and you'll learn how to make a great station that does hold up over time. Put passion in your product and you won't be a sitting duck.

I can't even remember how many heritage stations I have had to blow up, because the heritage position and its associated images were the opposite of the image needed in present time.

And in the PPM world, heritage may mean "yesterday" when the market competitive array offers more than one alternative acceptable to each listener in every daypart. At the end of the day... or daypart... only today's best programming really creates the listening.