Dees and Roy Back Together Again At One Of The Failing CBS Properties!

[davideduardo]

However, as I have worked over the years with KIIS and Z100, I believe I do have just a little knowledge as to the stations and the markets.

But... you would admit that you are not the only person with knowledge of those markets or any market you have worked in?

We are not, in any case, discussing prehistoric KIIS and Z100... and with the rapidly changing demos and ethnic composition of both markets, even the 2000 Census is ancient history. We now have an 18-34 cell in LA that is over half Hispanic (nearly 90% of whom are Mexican), a reduced Black presence and some 20% or so that are not even included in any Arbitron break. New York has comparable differences, but less change over time, complicated by the fact that there are no majority subsets. They just are not comparable in behaviour.

It goes much further than the audience composition, perhaps if you'd get out on the street and talk to people instead of spending your life posting on internet threads you'd learn there is more to radio than traveling between your office and the Arbitron Building to review data.

I still am giggling from the first post you made about some association with Arbitron. I have not been in Columbia for a nearly a year, and that was for the December PPM fly in, my only visit to Arbitron in 2007.

Since you seem to be tailoring your responses to a mistaken and thouroughly bizarre impression of what I do, you will no doubt not believe that I spend about 150 days a year "on the street" talking to listeners individually and in groups. Much of my "posting time" happens in airports or while airchecking real time (antiquated but effective) where it's easy to multitask.

Next I suppose you will tell me I don't know Rig Dees, even though I known him longer than anyone in radio, since he was a pool lifeguard, and I believe I know his positives and negatives better than most from over that time.

Probably everybody in the buisness in a medium market up has some Dees story. Mine is about beating WSGN with Birmingham's first CHR FM and Rick departing for Memphis or the time we both did projects for Tom Rounds (and Jacobs, for a while).

In case you still don't make the disconnection, I don't get paid to review diaries. I get paid to get salable ratings.

 

[Mothership]

However, as I have worked over the years with KIIS and Z100, I believe I do have just a little knowledge as to the stations and the markets.

But... you would admit that you are not the only person with knowledge of those markets or any market you have worked in?

We are not, in any case, discussing prehistoric KIIS and Z100... and with the rapidly changing demos and ethnic composition of both markets, even the 2000 Census is ancient history. We now have an 18-34 cell in LA that is over half Hispanic (nearly 90% of whom are Mexican), a reduced Black presence and some 20% or so that are not even included in any Arbitron break. New York has comparable differences, but less change over time, complicated by the fact that there are no majority subsets. They just are not comparable in behaviour.

It goes much further than the audience composition, perhaps if you'd get out on the street and talk to people instead of spending your life posting on internet threads you'd learn there is more to radio than traveling between your office and the Arbitron Building to review data.

I still am giggling from the first post you made about some association with Arbitron. I have not been in Columbia for a nearly a year, and that was for the December PPM fly in, my only visit to Arbitron in 2007.

Since you seem to be tailoring your responses to a mistaken and thouroughly bizarre impression of what I do, you will no doubt not believe that I spend about 150 days a year "on the street" talking to listeners individually and in groups. Much of my "posting time" happens in airports or while airchecking real time (antiquated but effective) where it's easy to multitask.

Next I suppose you will tell me I don't know Rig Dees, even though I known him longer than anyone in radio, since he was a pool lifeguard, and I believe I know his positives and negatives better than most from over that time.

Probably everybody in the buisness in a medium market up has some Dees story. Mine is about beating WSGN with Birmingham's first CHR FM and Rick departing for Memphis or the time we both did projects for Tom Rounds (and Jacobs, for a while).

In case you still don't make the disconnection, I don't get paid to review diaries. I get paid to get salable ratings.

Are you seriously going to take on Kabrich's KIIS/Z100 credentials?? Did he ever say he was the ONLY one?
He does indeed have a pretty good idea of what those stations (and their markets) are all about.
I, too can tell you that you are putting too much emphasis on the ethnicity of NY & LA and not enough on the heritage branding of these two stations (that really does matter).
In fact I'm hard pressed to think of a major market that DOESNT have a "heritage" station performing in the Top 5 ratingswise.

And with that many posts, if you made a post just once everytime you visited an airport, it would mean
you've flown everyday for the past 32+ years.

 

[Bryan Simmons]

How about this? Rick Dees retires after Movin flips to an all 1981 station ironically called RICK RADIO (named after Rick Springfield, not Rick Dees), KLSX 97.1 becomes KNHH a farm report station starring Don Imus, then, the Wave goes 24/7 Kenny G as they change their call letters to KGGG and all of the 97.1 FM Talk crew heads over to 980AM to replace KFWB with the new calls KROY.

Quite a fantasy, but what caught my eye was your use of the KROY call letters. Like a few other air personalities in LA I worked at the old KROY in Sacramento. Heritage calls to be sure, but totally out of place in the Southland. Sadly they're on a small town Texas station now and if anything I would love to see them return to Sacramento. My question is how did you arrive at those calls for your post? I'm guessing because Roy Laughlin is the cluster manager. Cute, but please not in LA.

 

[davideduardo]

Are you seriously going to take on Kabrich's KIIS/Z100 credentials??

Of course I am not challenging them. Can't you read?

In a smaller part, I am saying that the LA market has changed so much in the last decade... and half decade... that what was reality then is much changed now.

But mostly I am saying that today's LA and today's NY are so different ethnically... and in origin among Hispanics... that making conclusions about what the PPM would show in LA based on NY could / would only be serendipitously or coincidentally possible.

Did he ever say he was the ONLY one?

Read between the lines. He even decided that I did some kind of diary review service.

He does indeed have a pretty good idea of what those stations (and their markets) are all about.

No, he has an opinion about what they are about. So do I, and so does every poster who wants to suggest a different viewpoint on this subject.

I, too can tell you that you are putting too much emphasis on the ethnicity of NY & LA and not enough on the heritage branding of these two stations (that really does matter).

In younger leaning demos, there is little heritage. Most don't know what either station may have stood for in the past. When you look at PPM and realize that P1 status changes multiple times a year for most panelists, you realize that "good" is a "now" quality. Yes, you tune to what you know, but you also learn not to tune to a station if it is no longer pleasing you. Heritage will not keep listeners at a station that does sucky things often.

In fact I'm hard pressed to think of a major market that DOESNT have a "heritage" station performing in the Top 5 ratingswise.

And they win because they were good yesterday, and have been good so far today. Not because they are old. Old is great if you are a pyramid, but not so much if you are a radio station.

And with that many posts, if you made a post just once everytime you visited an airport, it would mean
you've flown everyday for the past 32+ years.

I've got 4 million miles with one single carrier. Plus, the day has 24 hours. Even workaholics don't work all 24.

 

[djmimi]

I've got 4 million miles with one single carrier. Plus, the day has 24 hours. Even workaholics don't work all 24.

Dang, that's impressive! David, you need to take a vacation, lol!

on a more serious note...you could just donate those miles to some worthy cause. Sounds as if you have no problem racking them up!

 

[goriajk]

David, are all those miles with United?? That's my preferred carrier. I have almost 100,000 Miles - But, not the miles you've racked up. All I can say is WOW!!! Peace - Joe G.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Actually it is not the flying, It is the flying, posting, researching, rating-reviewing and blowing up stations all over the country/continent that is impressive.

(Insert David's correction that it is actually two continents here)

With all he has to do, one really wonders why he spends so much time answering posters who clearly do not know what they are talking about. How can it be worth his time?

Does David spend more time posting or researching? Enquiring minds want to know.

 

[davideduardo]

David, are all those miles with United?? That's my preferred carrier. I have almost 100,000 Miles - But, not the miles you've racked up. All I can say is WOW!!! Peace - Joe G.

I have not flown on United since they did a tap dance on me about 10 years ago. I guess we all have ugly airline stories, but mine is with United.

My preferred carrier is American, followed by Varig, Aerolineas Argentinas, Avianca and Mexicana.

Before American had a rewards plan, in the early 80's when i was working markets like Santa Vruz de la Sierra, Punta Arenas, Cuenca, Bucaramanga, Arica and such, I did an average of something like 12,000 miles a week on carriers like Lloyd Aero Bolivia, Faucett, Ecuatoriana, TACA, etc. Many things did not work on some of those planes, even when they were in the air. And on occasion I got to visit odd airports that were not on the itinerary.

People who say it is fun to travel don't travel enough to know.

 

[davideduardo]

With all he has to do, one really wonders why he spends so much time answering posters who clearly do not know what they are talking about. How can it be worth his time?

When I was barely a teen, I started hanging at radio stations. There were people who actually showed me how things were done. In exchange, I got them coffee.

Then, in 1963 at a station group in Mexico City, I literally bumped into the group PD for 5 AMs. Aftter asking me why I liked radio he said I could be an intern with two rules: do what I was told and don't speak unless spoken to.

Of course, in both instances, if I did something wrong, they yelled at me. I tried not to do those things again. After a while, I got yelled at less, too.

Were it not for that sort of guidance, I would not be in radio. These boards, in a way, are part payback and part my love for a lively debate.

 

[Mothership]

Are you seriously going to take on Kabrich's KIIS/Z100 credentials??

Of course I am not challenging them. Can't you read?

Yes, quite well actually. The "prehistoric" Z100 & KIIS reference made it seem that Mr. Kabrich's insights were dated and therefore less valid.

In a smaller part, I am saying that the LA market has changed so much in the last decade... and half decade... that what was reality then is much changed now.
But mostly I am saying that today's LA and today's NY are so different ethnically... and in origin among Hispanics... that making conclusions about what the PPM would show in LA based on NY could / would only be serendipitously or coincidentally possible.

To a degree that may be true. But thats as much an effect of changing music, personalities that might be better or worse than those 10 years ago, and a bunch of cultural factors beyond just ethnic makeup.

Did he ever say he was the ONLY one?
Read between the lines. He even decided that I did some kind of diary review service.

Whether he decided that or not. It seemed you tried to diminish the validity of his post because he wasn't the "only one"
familiar with those stations or markets. Kobe Bryant might not be the "only one" who can hit 3 pt shots, but he is certainly qualified to talk about them.

He does indeed have a pretty good idea of what those stations (and their markets) are all about
No, he has an opinion about what they are about. So do I, and so does every poster who wants to suggest a different viewpoint on this subject.

Sure he has an opinion...but does your "No" insinuate that he doesn't have a pretty good idea of what they are all about?
Tom Poleman and John Ivey have opinions too, but probably some sort of working knowledge beyond that wouldnt you think?

I, too can tell you that you are putting too much emphasis on the ethnicity of NY & LA and not enough on the heritage branding of these two stations (that really does matter).

In younger leaning demos, there is little heritage. Most don't know what either station may have stood for in the past. When you look at PPM and realize that P1 status changes multiple times a year for most panelists, you realize that "good" is a "now" quality. Yes, you tune to what you know, but you also learn not to tune to a station if it is no longer pleasing you. Heritage will not keep listeners at a station that does sucky things often.

Well, yes and no David. A station that does sucky things will lose listeners, but until your post, those "sucky thing" doing stations weren't part of the conversation. I could say a heritage station in St, Louis that suddenly begins broadcasting in Farsi will lose listeners, and although probably true, it wasnt a part of the discussion.

As for lack of heritage in younger leaning demos, it does matter if its marketed properly. McDonalds, Coca-Cola, MTV all do it pretty well....and so do KIIS and Z-100. So yes, you tune to what you know, and if they continue the quality that got them there in the first place they can probably hang around based on it. Heritage is not just being old, its a longstanding practice of quality and success.

In fact I'm hard pressed to think of a major market that DOESNT have a "heritage" station performing in the Top 5 ratingswise.

And they win because they were good yesterday, and have been good so far today. Not because they are old. Old is great if you are a pyramid, but not so much if you are a radio station.

True, which is why I said a heritage station, and not an old station. Some stations that never really succeed hang around for years, they aren't heritage. The New York Yankees have heritage, Washington Generals not so much.

And with that many posts, if you made a post just once everytime you visited an airport, it would mean
you've flown everyday for the past 32+ years.


I've got 4 million miles with one single carrier. Plus, the day has 24 hours. Even workaholics don't work all 24.

It was a joke.

 

[RadioStarOne]

David your always posting about the ethnic make up of the Los Angeles radio market place. So I have a question for you to research. How many commuters of non-hispanic and hispanic of spanish decent drive, ride, fly, or pedal in to the Los Angeles market place on a daily basis from the surrounding counties in addition to the ones already living there? That should prove to be an interesting answer. I'm sure you must have an idea.

 

[davideduardo]

Yes, quite well actually. The "prehistoric" Z100 & KIIS reference made it seem that Mr. Kabrich's insights were dated and therefore less valid.

In CHR, last year is prehistoric.

But mostly I am saying that today's LA and today's NY are so different ethnically... and in origin among Hispanics... that making conclusions about what the PPM would show in LA based on NY could / would only be serendipitously or coincidentally possible.

To a degree that may be true. But thats as much an effect of changing music, personalities that might be better or worse than those 10 years ago, and a bunch of cultural factors beyond just ethnic makeup.

The CHR that a third generation Newyorican likes is really quite a distance from the CHR a second generation Mexican American likes. Ethnicity is a major defining point for contemporary formats and LA is radically different frm NY just by virtue of country of origin alone even before weighing in other factors.

Did he ever say he was the ONLY one?
Read between the lines. He even decided that I did some kind of diary review service.

Sure he has an opinion...but does your "No" insinuate that he doesn't have a pretty good idea of what they are all about? Tom Poleman and John Ivey have opinions too, but probably some sort of working knowledge beyond that wouldnt you think?

The keyword is "opinion" and on this one I disagree with Kabrich. All of us, including the people you mention, have programmed major LA stations and... since there is no one right way to do it... have opinions that are likely to differe in many ways. As they should.


of these two stations (that really does matter).

A station that does sucky things will lose listeners, but until your post, those "sucky thing" doing stations weren't part of the conversation. I could say a heritage station in St, Louis that suddenly begins broadcasting in Farsi will lose listeners, and although probably true, it wasnt a part of the discussion.

Without such a lengthy discussion, all I am saying is that heritige is more likely to be a negative ("heritage" usually means "old") in today's world. In a non memory-based PPM world, remembering the station due to its heritage and legacy is useful only if it makes people tune to you first if they are not sure of their radio destination. And it only works if you consistently fulfill expectations.

As for lack of heritage in younger leaning demos, it does matter if its marketed properly. McDonalds, Coca-Cola, MTV all do it pretty well

No, Coke and MickyD are constantly reinforcing a brand with aware consumers and building awareness with new ones. Heritage is only as good as your last happy meal.

....and so do KIIS and Z-100. So yes, you tune to what you know, and if they continue the quality that got them there in the first place they can probably hang around based on it. Heritage is not just being old, its a longstanding practice of quality and success.

Mostly, it is being the only CHR in each market.

True, which is why I said a heritage station, and not an old station. Some stations that never really succeed hang around for years, they aren't heritage. The New York Yankees have heritage, Washington Generals not so much.

Good point. A lot of stations don't get that. I heard one contemporary station doing a 26th anniversary concert. Instead of the "Anniversary Concert" which shows stability, they say "26th" which simply makes them oh-so-eighties.

 

[davideduardo]

David your always posting about the ethnic make up of the Los Angeles radio market place. So I have a question for you to research. How many commuters of non-hispanic and hispanic of spanish decent drive, ride, fly, or pedal in to the Los Angeles market place on a daily basis from the surrounding counties in addition to the ones already living there? That should prove to be an interesting answer. I'm sure you must have an idea.

Commute data is in the Census, even down to average commute times.

Since people who commute in are not part of the LA radio survey sample, they are not really a major concern to local stations. They are in part, though, why LA stations show up so well in the Ventura and IE surveys-

 

[Mothership]

Yes, quite well actually. The "prehistoric" Z100 & KIIS reference made it seem that Mr. Kabrich's insights were dated and therefore less valid.

In CHR, last year is prehistoric.

According to you.
So, essentially you ARE challenging Kabrich's validity regarding KIIS & Z100, correct?

But mostly I am saying that today's LA and today's NY are so different ethnically... and in origin among Hispanics... that making conclusions about what the PPM would show in LA based on NY could / would only be serendipitously or coincidentally possible.

To a degree that may be true. But thats as much an effect of changing music, personalities that might be better or worse than those 10 years ago, and a bunch of cultural factors beyond just ethnic makeup.

The CHR that a third generation Newyorican likes is really quite a distance from the CHR a second generation Mexican American likes. Ethnicity is a major defining point for contemporary formats and LA is radically different frm NY just by virtue of country of origin alone even before weighing in other factors.

Yes your example is true, but misses the point. No one would disagree that there is a difference between immigrants of different countries and generations, however, it is just one detremining factor and must NOT be separated from other factors in determining a stations success. More clearly, the origin country of its listeners is NOT the biggest factor in the programming difference between KIIS and Z100.

Sure he has an opinion...but does your "No" insinuate that he doesn't have a pretty good idea of what they are all about? Tom Poleman and John Ivey have opinions too, but probably some sort of working knowledge beyond that wouldnt you think?

The keyword is "opinion" and on this one I disagree with Kabrich. All of us, including the people you mention, have programmed major LA stations and... since there is no one right way to do it... have opinions that are likely to differe in many ways. As they should.

At this moment, I'd say Poleman and Ivey are pretty "right".

A station that does sucky things will lose listeners, but until your post, those "sucky thing" doing stations weren't part of the conversation. I could say a heritage station in St, Louis that suddenly begins broadcasting in Farsi will lose listeners, and although probably true, it wasnt a part of the discussion.
Without such a lengthy discussion, all I am saying is that heritige is more likely to be a negative ("heritage" usually means "old") in today's world. In a non memory-based PPM world, remembering the station due to its heritage and legacy is useful only if it makes people tune to you first if they are not sure of their radio destination. And it only works if you consistently fulfill expectations.

My point is that if heritage makes people "tune to you first" then it is a HUGE advantage.
Its then up to that station whether they can keep the listener.

....and so do KIIS and Z-100. So yes, you tune to what you know, and if they continue the quality that got them there in the first place they can probably hang around based on it. Heritage is not just being old, its a longstanding practice of quality and success

Mostly, it is being the only CHR in each market.

Not really true, many "only CHR's in the the market" underperform. And when Z-100 began to experiment with
its heritage image in the 90's it suffered (still as the only CHR in NYC). Give those stations a LITTLE credit.

 

[davideduardo]

According to you.
So, essentially you ARE challenging Kabrich's validity regarding KIIS & Z100, correct?

If he is basing his evaluation on years past, he needs to update. In any case, I disagree with anyone who thinks there is a direct correlation between a CHR in NY and one in LA.

To a degree that may be true. But thats as much an effect of changing music, personalities that might be better or worse than those 10 years ago, and a bunch of cultural factors beyond just ethnic makeup.

Yes your example is true, but misses the point. No one would disagree that there is a difference between immigrants of different countries and generations, however, it is just one detremining factor and must NOT be separated from other factors in determining a stations success. More clearly, the origin country of its listeners is NOT the biggest factor in the programming difference between KIIS and Z100.

When LA, in 18-34 is 55% Hispanic and KIIS's AQH is 48% Hispanic in the July PPM data, while Z100 has a much lower Hisapnic component, then the Hispanic element or lack of same is perhaps the major factor in KIIS's success. Even the fact that Idol is about the biggest Hispanic English langauge TV draw enters in.

WHTZ is barely 18% Hispanic, and a different kind of Hispanic.

Unless you get the Hispanic part right, all the rest is not going to work. It's like a stone bridge without a keystone.

My point is that if heritage makes people "tune to you first" then it is a HUGE advantage.
Its then up to that station whether they can keep the listener.

You are saying the same thing I said. It's every day, every show, every song. Let them down, and there is no heritage.

Not really true, many "only CHR's in the the market" underperform. And when Z-100 began to experiment with
its heritage image in the 90's it suffered (still as the only CHR in NYC). Give those stations a LITTLE credit.

They don't perform for a variety of reasons, ranging from thinking listeners want to hear tons of new songs to not understanding the target of a CHR today is more 18-34 women than anything else.

But in this case we are talking about very good, very competently programmed stations. KIIS and WHTZ are simply good because they understand all the pieces and how to fit them together. And the pieces are significantly different between the left and right coasts.

 

[Mothership]

According to you.
So, essentially you ARE challenging Kabrich's validity regarding KIIS & Z100, correct?

If he is basing his evaluation on years past, he needs to update. In any case, I disagree with anyone who thinks there is a direct correlation between a CHR in NY and one in LA.

I don't know if he is. I also don't have a position on what "he needs" to do. Randy can fend for himself.
My opinion is that there are many direct correlations. That doesnt mean 100% of things work in both markets, but many things do.

To a degree that may be true. But thats as much an effect of changing music, personalities that might be better or worse than those 10 years ago, and a bunch of cultural factors beyond just ethnic makeup.

Yes your example is true, but misses the point. No one would disagree that there is a difference between immigrants of different countries and generations, however, it is just one detremining factor and must NOT be separated from other factors in determining a stations success. More clearly, the origin country of its listeners is NOT the biggest factor in the programming difference between KIIS and Z100

When LA, in 18-34 is 55% Hispanic and KIIS's AQH is 48% Hispanic in the July PPM data, while Z100 has a much lower Hisapnic component, then the Hispanic element or lack of same is perhaps the major factor in KIIS's success. Even the fact that Idol is about the biggest Hispanic English langauge TV draw enters in.

WHTZ is barely 18% Hispanic, and a different kind of Hispanic.

Unless you get the Hispanic part right, all the rest is not going to work. It's like a stone bridge without a keystone.

Yes, big difference there. However, not all programming decisions are made based on the Hispanic audience percentage.
Also don't forget that Idol is also the biggest non-Hispanic English TV draw.

Not really true, many "only CHR's in the the market" underperform. And when Z-100 began to experiment with
its heritage image in the 90's it suffered (still as the only CHR in NYC). Give those stations a LITTLE credit.

They don't perform for a variety of reasons, ranging from thinking listeners want to hear tons of new songs to not understanding the target of a CHR today is more 18-34 women than anything else.

But in this case we are talking about very good, very competently programmed stations. KIIS and WHTZ are simply good because they understand all the pieces and how to fit them together. And the pieces are significantly different between the left and right coasts.

Well said, and I agree. However, in an earlier post you said their success was mostly being the only CHR's in their markets, and I think its a whole lot more of being "very good, competently programmed stations" (which is why they also won when they weren't the only CHR's).