reelyreal said:
Because you and others are "haters"?? Never used that one......
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Denver has a new dance station...the time is now New York!
- Thread starter Jeffrey
- Start date
Because you and others are "haters"?? Never used that one......
Tony Santiago said:
Right, because I and all the other people who are primarily Rock-format listeners who don't like WBLS have really hindered its ratings over the past several months...
Tony was being facetious with his reply. I have no problem saying I was glad to see Hot 107.1 become dance back in the spring.Then I found out they were on a rim shot signal. If I'm not mistaken they did as well (or bad depending how you look at it) compared to when they were CHR.I do think that for a dance Top 40 station to be successful on radio today in the PPM era, it has to go deep into the library and not be so current based.
Morpheux said:
THANK YOU for catching that Morpheux. I'm just still taking all of this in as it just happened about an hour ago. But I know I'm going to get a lot of flack from you radio guys and dance music "haters" just dying to say "I told you so" laughing hysterically in the background.
Go ahead then. It's not like I haven't dealt with this before......
As they say, to be successful you have to go through many failures.
Tony Santiago said:
Tony, it's not that I hate Dance music. What I hate is the attitude that you present with your campaign when you seem to demand/expect that Dance music should be on the airwaves. Obviously, the companies who've tried it disagree with you, and it's not like radio companies haven't given it a shot -- like I said earlier in this thread, Dance stations have been launched (and subsequently failed) in major markets like New York, Los Angeles (three times!), San Francisco, Dallas and most recently Denver. Yet every time a Dance station fails, you have some excuse as to why it didn't work... but you never seem to accept the fact that some music formats just aren't mass-appeal enough to work on a medium like radio.
As I've said before, I admire your passion and your drive, but it just seems like every time Dance is tried and fails, you have some excuse as to why and you claim it's because people hate Dance music. This is not about hating Dance music, this is about radio being a business and not enough people wanting to listen to Dance music on the radio for a station to be able to sell it.
Alan Freed at the Dance board said it best:
"I heard the station's dance music format a few times while in the city…the signal was good but the music seemed too abrasive and underground for even minimally successful commercial numbers. I'm the last person to criticize new ideas and something different - Hell, maybe it was appropriate for Denver - D is a good dance music/EDM city - but I think the station didn't play dance music (real, mass-appeal dance music, not what CHR trumpets as dance) that would have appealed to a larger audience (both dance fans and not-yet-fans who would've liked it). Instead of taking the normal U.S. path of "dance music" radio by playing cheesy, watered-down (non-)dance, it went too far in the opposite direction, instead selecting too many harder sounds like really harsh dubstep, material that appealed to a narrow base. I am not surprised by the format's execution due to the way it was executed during its short eight months.
Another fail for the format. A shame…it just never is done right here in the states the few times it gets a chance. We keep hearing in mainstream media about how big dance music/EDM is lately yet it's not reflected on FM. If it was done properly in the right markets it would be successful. Sorry, Denver. Back to your PMPs and the Internet."
"I heard the station's dance music format a few times while in the city…the signal was good but the music seemed too abrasive and underground for even minimally successful commercial numbers. I'm the last person to criticize new ideas and something different - Hell, maybe it was appropriate for Denver - D is a good dance music/EDM city - but I think the station didn't play dance music (real, mass-appeal dance music, not what CHR trumpets as dance) that would have appealed to a larger audience (both dance fans and not-yet-fans who would've liked it). Instead of taking the normal U.S. path of "dance music" radio by playing cheesy, watered-down (non-)dance, it went too far in the opposite direction, instead selecting too many harder sounds like really harsh dubstep, material that appealed to a narrow base. I am not surprised by the format's execution due to the way it was executed during its short eight months.
Another fail for the format. A shame…it just never is done right here in the states the few times it gets a chance. We keep hearing in mainstream media about how big dance music/EDM is lately yet it's not reflected on FM. If it was done properly in the right markets it would be successful. Sorry, Denver. Back to your PMPs and the Internet."
RockTheGlobe said:
Understand one thing please.
For 18 years, I've been trying to push for dance music on the radio airwaves. This was done after we lost Hot 97 back in 1992 add to the fact that Hot 97 blocked someone from doing a daily dance music show on another station. For what I've set with the coalition, it wasn't just about me. I thought there must be other fans that feel the same way as I do (this WAY before the Internet was what it is today) so we all have to band together. And through those years, I've dealt with a lot of crap and hate from people and that's where you see my anger.
I know radio is a business. My approach to this within the past couple of years is to see how such a format could be financially viable. Yet when I explain it that way, I get shot down. Not as brutally as those that just outright hate dance, but still. Maybe I see something others don't, I don't know. Or it's just the fact that yes, we are in a bad economy where no one wants to try anything.
Excuses? Whatever thoughts I came up with in terms of why a station failed is fact and some of it didn't have to do with the music. Pulse 87 had financial problems before they went into dance. Energy 92.7 in San Francisco was bought out and the new owners changed format. Party 93.1 in Miami changed because a rock station there flipped format so the owners wanted to get that rock crowd.
In the case of Hot 107.1, d21ofnj posted Alan Freed's thoughts on it and I do agree with Alan. I've heard the station too and while I certainly appreciate the cutting edge sounds of it, I also know that they didn't play much of the mass appeal dance that Alan mentions. Maybe even a LITTLE of what CHR "trumpets" as dance could have been something to get those new fans into the picture, just so as to get those numbers. Add to the fact that the station was a rimshot and not in Denver proper, it couldn't get a greater audience.
I don't know if it's because of all these years everyone just thinks I want this ultra edgy sound or not, but within the past couple of years I realize that there has to be a give and take. I know that there are those fans that like the rhythmic sounds, as CHR currently presents it, and could open up to more sounds if given that exposure.
My "demands/expectations" are just due to the fact that you have many people in the New York area that love this music. Whether it's the current sounds, or even the older sounds (such as freestyle), there is a big base in that sense. I still believe that Pulse 87 would have remained on the air if it was at a dial location above 92 that had a powerful stick behind it.
Yes, my approach could be considered tough and arrogant. But based on what I've dealt with throughout the years, it goes to a philosophy I have....that if people don't want to hear you, that you speak louder.
The dance music format was never just about me.
It seems what Tony is advocating is a dance music-friendly CHR. I believe the average listener in this area that wants this would be reasonably satisfied with WKTU, or 92 Now.
No doubt Tony would want a few tunes mixed in that are edgier than what those two stations offer. But if there was a real demand for such songs, it would seem easy for 'KTU or 92 Now to add them. My point is that as far as I can tell, the format Tony is pushing for would not sound very different to the average listener from what is already available in this area (and in many other major markets).
No doubt Tony would want a few tunes mixed in that are edgier than what those two stations offer. But if there was a real demand for such songs, it would seem easy for 'KTU or 92 Now to add them. My point is that as far as I can tell, the format Tony is pushing for would not sound very different to the average listener from what is already available in this area (and in many other major markets).
Tony Santiago said:
Tony, your response indicates that your desire to get Dance music on the air overrides your understanding that radio is a business. It's a simple matter of demand and economics -- if enough people like a format, they will listen, which will get the station good ratings. With those good ratings, a sales staff can go out and sell spots to advertisers, which makes the station (and the format) profitable. Without good ratings and listenership, the station can't sell its inventory because businesses don't want to pay for airtime that won't get them ROI, so the station can't make money and has to try some other format or approach in order to make itself sellable.
That said, you keep saying that you've been trying to see over the past couple of years how to make the format financially viable. The short answer: It isn't, and you yourself gave examples (though couched in terms of "some of it didn't have to do with the music" even though it all has to do with the music). If Dance were sellable in New York, it might have helped Mega Media overcome their financial troubles. If Dance were sellable in San Francisco, it would've turned enough of a profit to make Flying Bear not want/need to sell their stick to Stolz (who has financial problems of his own). If Dance were sellable in Miami, Cox would've kept the format rather than opting to flip into another format that they felt was more financially viable (and then again to yet another format they felt was even more financially viable).
Radio formats are a commodity to be bought and sold, just like any other business. If you sell something else... like, say, filing cabinets that seem to have a fairly good awareness everywhere and people have them in their homes and businesses, it doesn't mean that just because there's a halfway decent demand for filing cabinets that a store devoted entirely to filing cabinets would be profitable in every city. Filing cabinets can be sold as part of office inventory at bigger stores like Staples and Target that can afford to keep as part of their stocks for whenever people need them, but there's a pretty good chance that a national chain (or even a local one) of filing cabinet-only stores would tank eventually. As such, Dance can be sold as part of a greater "inventory" -- and in certain venues and circumstances, like EDM shows and dance clubs in certain cities -- but it seems given the amount of launches and failures over the past decade or so, radio companies have given full-on Dance formats a shot and found them to be about as profitable and mass-appeal as a store that only sells filing cabinets.
Barry said:
Actually it would be a step up from just being a dance-friendly CHR.
Basically 92.3 Now would be considered a dance friendly CHR in that sense. Yet they still cover angles of the format that are not dance, and of course they have to...after all, they are a CHR. 'KTU has their angle as a "CHR" (that's in quotes because of Z-100) yet for their audience they cover more "women friendly" music.
This would be about what Pulse 87 was. I say "about" because things that have happened along the way in terms of dance music that came on after Pulse left the terrestrial airwaves. I wouldn't go HEAVY on one particular sound or another (that, based on another post, was what failed Hot 107.1). They were leaning heavily on EDM. Should be EDM be played on a dance station? Yes. Should it be played to the extent that Hot 107.1 did? No.
That's actually a backhanded fear that I have regarding Drive FX in the Hudson Valley.
Ohhh boy :
Time to break it down.
Ummmmm......I think I got that. So please stop putting the "words" in everyone's mind that it's just about MY desire to get dance music on the air because, once again (not just saying you, but hearing it from others too), it's not just about ME.
Okay. Another twisting my words here........
NEW YORK - Mega's troubles were way deeper than this. If Pulse 87 did anything, it was the "pail" that tried bailing the sinking ship for as long as it could.
SAN FRANCISCO - KNGY (Energy 92.7) lasted for FIVE YEARS. This was not a "flash in the pan". If this station was indeed a failure, Flying Bear would have sold it way before it went to Stolz, or flipped format immediately.
MIAMI - Party 93.1 lasted FOUR YEARS. Cox saw the opening after WZTA flipped and went to classic rock. The ratings might not have been as strong as before but the station was still doing decently.
Let's use your example with filing cabinets here because I like it!
Sure, filing cabinets make up one brand of the store's inventory. But with any office store you DO need more products to sell. So, you have desks, chairs, reams of copying paper, printers, computers, etc. That's how such a store does well in business. And along the way, based on consumer trends, you modify sales in terms of what is selling and what isn't. Whereas when Staples first opened in 1986, they were selling typewriters. Now, no one uses typewriters and even though there may be one or two typewriters still being sold at Staples, it's not as if they are concentrating heavily on those to sell and eventually typewriters will disappear altogether.
What you're trying to say on me, and let's use Hot 107.1 in this is that all I want to do is just sell filing cabinets, and to that let's call filing cabinets - "electronica". Of course that's not going to work just selling that aspect and I agree. You NEED everything else...desks (current based dance branded music), chairs (freestyle), copying paper (rhythmic CHR), printers (recurrent dance) and yes filing cabinets (EDM/Electronica).
Perhaps one store does better selling copying paper and not desks. Another store may do better selling printers. My hope is that the store can do well with the filing cabinets too BUT at the same time have everything else in that store sell as well. And along the way, depending on what new inventory comes along and whatever inventory is "not selling anymore" and gets phased out, the store will still make a profit and remain in business so as long as it covers the broad spectrum of consumers.
Dance CAN do that. Not just as an EDM concert thing or a club thing, but radio as well.
Time to break it down.RockTheGlobe said:
Ummmmm......I think I got that. So please stop putting the "words" in everyone's mind that it's just about MY desire to get dance music on the air because, once again (not just saying you, but hearing it from others too), it's not just about ME.
RockTheGlobe said:
Okay. Another twisting my words here........
NEW YORK - Mega's troubles were way deeper than this. If Pulse 87 did anything, it was the "pail" that tried bailing the sinking ship for as long as it could.
SAN FRANCISCO - KNGY (Energy 92.7) lasted for FIVE YEARS. This was not a "flash in the pan". If this station was indeed a failure, Flying Bear would have sold it way before it went to Stolz, or flipped format immediately.
MIAMI - Party 93.1 lasted FOUR YEARS. Cox saw the opening after WZTA flipped and went to classic rock. The ratings might not have been as strong as before but the station was still doing decently.
RockTheGlobe said:
Let's use your example with filing cabinets here because I like it!
Sure, filing cabinets make up one brand of the store's inventory. But with any office store you DO need more products to sell. So, you have desks, chairs, reams of copying paper, printers, computers, etc. That's how such a store does well in business. And along the way, based on consumer trends, you modify sales in terms of what is selling and what isn't. Whereas when Staples first opened in 1986, they were selling typewriters. Now, no one uses typewriters and even though there may be one or two typewriters still being sold at Staples, it's not as if they are concentrating heavily on those to sell and eventually typewriters will disappear altogether.
What you're trying to say on me, and let's use Hot 107.1 in this is that all I want to do is just sell filing cabinets, and to that let's call filing cabinets - "electronica". Of course that's not going to work just selling that aspect and I agree. You NEED everything else...desks (current based dance branded music), chairs (freestyle), copying paper (rhythmic CHR), printers (recurrent dance) and yes filing cabinets (EDM/Electronica).
Perhaps one store does better selling copying paper and not desks. Another store may do better selling printers. My hope is that the store can do well with the filing cabinets too BUT at the same time have everything else in that store sell as well. And along the way, depending on what new inventory comes along and whatever inventory is "not selling anymore" and gets phased out, the store will still make a profit and remain in business so as long as it covers the broad spectrum of consumers.
Dance CAN do that. Not just as an EDM concert thing or a club thing, but radio as well.
Despite the fact that I wasn't twisting anyone's words because I was merely pointing out that finances and the ability for a format to make money are the driving forces behind a format flip 99% of the time, and despite the fact that you're fighting an argument I never made because I never claimed that Dance was a flash-in-the-pan format, it's obvious that you and those you dub "haters" will never see eye to eye on this issue, no matter what points are made.
That said, Tony, just put your money where your mouth is. It's much easier to armchair quarterback than go out and coach winning games, so rather than sitting back on a message board trying to convince radio companies that Dance is a profitable for at, why aren't you out there yourself trying to prove it's profitable and has draw? There are plenty of brokered-time stations or HD2 side-channels that are being leased out, so line up some advertisers and buy some time. Do Dance radio the way you think it ought to be done and the way you think it can be profitable. If you're successful and make money and a ratings impact, maybe a major chain will take notice and either emulate your station or hire you to program a Dance station. If not, well... Maybe Dance isn't as profitable a radio format as you believe it is, and you'll finally be open to that possibility, despite your own musical preferences.
That said, Tony, just put your money where your mouth is. It's much easier to armchair quarterback than go out and coach winning games, so rather than sitting back on a message board trying to convince radio companies that Dance is a profitable for at, why aren't you out there yourself trying to prove it's profitable and has draw? There are plenty of brokered-time stations or HD2 side-channels that are being leased out, so line up some advertisers and buy some time. Do Dance radio the way you think it ought to be done and the way you think it can be profitable. If you're successful and make money and a ratings impact, maybe a major chain will take notice and either emulate your station or hire you to program a Dance station. If not, well... Maybe Dance isn't as profitable a radio format as you believe it is, and you'll finally be open to that possibility, despite your own musical preferences.
S
stevensonair
Guest
In my understanding, Rev 92.7 isn't faring that well up against SF powerhouses like 99.7 Now and KMEL/Wild, either in ratings or revenues. If the current product isn't doing better the dance format, that might make the case that dance was in fact a viable format for 92.7. Dance lasted 5 years, and attempts at urban (The Beat) and CHR (Rev) don't seem to have outperformed the "Energy" format.
stevensonair said:
No, all that makes the case for is the fact that going Top 40 against a well-staffed and well-programmed (and in the case of The Beat, more than one well-staffed, well-programmed and well-established in the market) competitor might not have been the easiest or best idea.
RockTheGlobe said:
I know the next paragraph is going to cover, but how can I see "eye to eye" by someone telling me NO, that it CAN'T WORK? Yes, there was a time years ago where I was very hypercritical on our brand of dance getting in. Now I'm saying put in the CHR/rhythmic aspect somehow. ONCE AGAIN, if this was really about me, then I'll keep to what I do on my online show which gets edgier as the show progresses. For commercial radio, I know what it's about.
RockTheGlobe said:
Fine, give me the money. Serious. I don't have it. I wish I did, hell I wish I won the $550 million Powerball but I'll take my $2.
I do my online show and it has a well established core listenership to it. They also know what to expect and to expect the unexpected too. The first hour I lean on tracks that have commercial potential. The second hour, that's extremely edgy but even that, I give diversity. I don't play dubstep because I think that's more suited for alternative formats. Then again, that's just me. Third hour, I give a DJ the chance to showcase his/her talents. I want to help everyone. That's why I do the show in the way I do it. And I think people appreciate it. I hope so anyway.
Believe me, I am doing my part with what limited funds I have here. If you or others think I may have something here, why not invest in me then? I've been a dance music fan since 1977. So I was too young to go into Studio 54 (my name is not Michael Jackson or Brooke Shields, lol) and was too young to have done something about the "Disco Demolition Derby" in Chicago back in 1979 but I've followed the music AND radio religiously.
I could certainly do what needs to be done if given that chance. Maybe it's about "new blood" in that sense.
Yeah, right now I see radio pros laughing at this in the background, lol. But despite your best efforts, I'm never going to give up. I'll die first before that happens.
ADDED: If you want to hear what my show sounds like - http://newmusicspotlight.podomatic.com/ Click the "New Music Spotlight 11-25-12" show since that's formatted. The DJ Spotlight is 2 hours of DJ mixes.
Tony Santiago said:
Again, missing my point. If your online show is so well-listened-to, monetize it. If you think Dance is a financially viable radio format, line up advertisers and prove it. You sit back and look for other people to do the work for you, but if you spent the time pounding the pavement and trying to sell your idea rather than debating with people on message boards, you might be able to get your idea off the ground. Stop making excuses about everything and just try it.
Hell, talk to Joel Salkowitz. He might have some leads for you based on what he did at Pulse 87 or who's supporting him now.
RockTheGlobe said:
I TAKE GREAT INSULT TO WHAT YOU SAY HERE!
FIRST OFF, I BUST MY TAIL DAY AND NIGHT FOR THIS MUSIC AND FOR MY SHOW!! I GO ALL OVER THE PLACE MEETING WITH FANS AND OTHERS TO DISCUSS IT! I'VE BEEN AT THIS FOR 18 YEARS NOW, BEFORE THERE WAS AN INTERNET LIKE THIS, BEFORE THERE WERE INTERNET STREAMS, AT A TIME WHERE RADIO STILL MATTERED AND PEOPLE WERE BUYING VINYL AND CD'S AT RECORD STORES! I WORK DAMN HARD AT WHAT I DO, THIS ALONG WITH THE FACT I HAVE A DAY JOB AND FAMILY RESPONSIBILITIES! SO DON'T TELL ME THAT I LOOK FOR OTHER PEOPLE TO WORK FOR ME BECAUSE I KILL MYSELF FOR THIS MUSIC. I DON'T JUST FOLLOW THIS, I BELIEVE IN IT!!! I MAKE NO EXCUSES!!!!! HELL, I'VE EVEN WROTE A LETTER TO DAN MASON AT CBS RADIO!!!!
You know what, I don't have to prove anything to you.
If I have to prove something, it's to the dance fans that support the music. It's to the artists that bust their tails in the studios singing their hearts out. It's to the DJ's who spend countless hours behind their Seratos and Traktors doing their sets in dark nightclubs. It's to the promoters that as the music grows, more people would attend their venues. I never took ONE CENT from anyone, not because I can't make money off of it, it's because I want our music to expand and grow and that everyone can win from it. The BIGGEST person I have to prove something here is myself. I need to prove it to me, first and foremost. Because WHEN (not if) I win and succeed from this, the biggest satisfaction I will have is when all of the radio pros that have laughed at me will stay quiet and under their nose say...."Tony was right". That will be my victory.
I don't care if what I said made you cry, you're just continuing to prove my point. You wrote a letter to Dan Mason about it? Congratulations. I can write a letter to Dan Mason just as easily. How much time did that take, half an hour? Did you follow up with him or anyone else in the senior programming staff at CBS Radio? Did you get anyone else to speak to him on your behalf? Did you set a meeting with him?
That's great that you're spending all this time talking to fans. Are these fans people who would either be able to sell airtime or buy spots? Because if not, and if your push is to get Dance music on FM, then you're talking to the wrong people. It's great to build a fan base, and I applaud your efforts to do that in addition to your day job and your personal responsibilities, but if your goal is a Dance-formatted radio station, you need to be talking to people who can make that happen, not your existing fan base. Find people who can sell airtime and convince them you're right and to sell on your behalf. Find businesses who are looking to advertise and convince them your product is worth buying. Otherwise, you're no closer to getting what you want. But having an endgame of getting a Dance-formatted radio station and gathering and talking to a coalition of Dance music fans to achieve that endgame is like going to a Star Trek convention with the intention of convincing people how great Star Trek is.
That's great that you're spending all this time talking to fans. Are these fans people who would either be able to sell airtime or buy spots? Because if not, and if your push is to get Dance music on FM, then you're talking to the wrong people. It's great to build a fan base, and I applaud your efforts to do that in addition to your day job and your personal responsibilities, but if your goal is a Dance-formatted radio station, you need to be talking to people who can make that happen, not your existing fan base. Find people who can sell airtime and convince them you're right and to sell on your behalf. Find businesses who are looking to advertise and convince them your product is worth buying. Otherwise, you're no closer to getting what you want. But having an endgame of getting a Dance-formatted radio station and gathering and talking to a coalition of Dance music fans to achieve that endgame is like going to a Star Trek convention with the intention of convincing people how great Star Trek is.
RockTheGlobe said:
You didn't make me cry. FAR FROM IT actually.
I've updated this to calm down from all of this. Really, I don't have the money and to add, I don't have connections to ad agencies. If someone can lead me the right path, I'll do it. It's not a question of excuses or putting others to do things. I can do it myself. Just show a direction. Can you do that?
If you can't, then you have nothing more to say because you would prove my point.
- Status