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Did WRGB /Ch 6 Albany just ruin the Pulse 87 Party?

After the first failed attempt to keep their audio going on 87.7 in Albany it has returned last night now on 87.9...
http://www.cbs6albany.com/news/radio-1264652-time-tune.html

Looking beyond all the obvious arguments one way or another, it feels like what was a sort of quiet gray area of ancillary services is now begging for an official clarification, which probably won't be good for anyone.
 
87.9 won't be as bad as 87.7 itself. The pirate on 87.9 in Newark is overmodulated, but if it were at proper modulation, you could hear Pulse 87 in Newark with little interference from the pirate.
The interference from Albany will be minimal at the places that Pulse 87 can be received, it should interfere less than the 87.9 pirate station.
 
Nick said:
87.9 won't be as bad as 87.7 itself. The pirate on 87.9 in Newark is overmodulated, but if it were at proper modulation, you could hear Pulse 87 in Newark with little interference from the pirate.
The interference from Albany will be minimal at the places that Pulse 87 can be received, it should interfere less than the 87.9 pirate station.

Just to clarify I wasn't talking about the two stations interfereing at all. In fact since June Pulse 87 sounds great even up in Newburgh. I was talking about the issue of DTV channels running FM stations without clear rules of what's acceptable or not. It wouldn't be the FCC unless the hammer comes down on this issue soon.
 
I think WNYZ filed a proposal to operate an ancillary audio service and it was approved when they could prove that it had no degradation in quality of the digital TV service.
If they are simulcasting the TV shows on 87.9, I hope CBS or the show producers fine WRGB so that it will be a disincentive for other channel 6's to try that.
WRGB gets little if any additional revenue from the radio simulcast, operating 87.9 as a full blown radio station like Pulse 87 would actually generate revenue greater than the cost of the electric bill to run the 87.9 transmitter.
 
For a few days before the switch to Pulse 87, when it was still Russian programming, WNYZ moved up to 87.9 from 87.7, but then moved back.
 
disney fanatic said:
I'm sure that WRGB is back on the air on the radio at 87.9 instead of 87.7 in Albany. WPVI out in Philadelphia will have the DTV audio back to 87.9 as usual soon.
Where did you find that out? I read on the WPVI website that the radio simulcast would be gone for good after June 12th.
In New Brunswick, the 87.9 pirate was stronger than WPVI's audio and 87.9 didn't interfere with Pulse 87 there despite the fact that 87.9's overmodulated.
 
Nick said:
disney fanatic said:
I'm sure that WRGB is back on the air on the radio at 87.9 instead of 87.7 in Albany. WPVI out in Philadelphia will have the DTV audio back to 87.9 as usual soon.
Where did you find that out? I read on the WPVI website that the radio simulcast would be gone for good after June 12th.

There's nothing wrong with posting an inquiry on the Philly TV board. Of course, you might have to wait until they're finished debating whether or not WPVI should fix its digital signal problems, before you can get an answer on an FM simulcast!
 
Nick said:
disney fanatic said:
I'm sure that WRGB is back on the air on the radio at 87.9 instead of 87.7 in Albany. WPVI out in Philadelphia will have the DTV audio back to 87.9 as usual soon.
Where did you find that out? I read on the WPVI website that the radio simulcast would be gone for good after June 12th.
In New Brunswick, the 87.9 pirate was stronger than WPVI's audio and 87.9 didn't interfere with Pulse 87 there despite the fact that 87.9's overmodulated.

Don't EVER listen to anything Disney says. You are correct. WPVI cited rights issues and essentially said they are not interested in it for the forseable future.
 
thataveragejoe said:
After the first failed attempt to keep their audio going on 87.7 in Albany it has returned last night now on 87.9...
http://www.cbs6albany.com/news/radio-1264652-time-tune.html

Looking beyond all the obvious arguments one way or another, it feels like what was a sort of quiet gray area of ancillary services is now begging for an official clarification, which probably won't be good for anyone.

If I were to guess, I'd say their operation on 87.75 was clobbering their DTV signal, and they hoped moving to 87.9 would get the analog signal far enough out on the edge of the channel to allow TV reception to work.

I would be VERY surprised if moving to 87.9 will help.

I concur that a pretty dangerous precedent is being opened here. I find it VERY difficult to reconcile with the "Digital Transition and Public Safety Act of 2005" which requires the FCC to

...require the cessation of broadcasting by full-power stations in the analog television service, by February 18, 2009;...

(date later amended to June 12th)

Pulse 87 can get away with staying on since they aren't a full-power station. Is WRGB possibly arguing that they're no longer in the analog television service since there's only audio? Seems to me that's almost certain to get litigated by the other major Albany-market TV stations. With considerable chance of success.
 
It's an unfair advantage for a channel 6 TV station to be on the radio. Before June 12, it was unintentional so the other channels just dealt with it. Now, it is intentional.
Pulse 87 is in digital. The DTV hash drops off completely at 87.5 and the Pulse carrier is at 87.75. They're probably only transmitting one DTV channel at 480i, since Mega Media doesn't care about the picture quality of channel 6. The DTV signal can only be seen if you can see the Citicorp building, the Pulse 87 audio can be heard up to 60 miles away, hence it's better to operate a radio station than a TV station.
 
Nick said:
It's an unfair advantage for a channel 6 TV station to be on the radio. Before June 12, it was unintentional so the other channels just dealt with it. Now, it is intentional.
Pulse 87 is in digital. The DTV hash drops off completely at 87.5 and the Pulse carrier is at 87.75. They're probably only transmitting one DTV channel at 480i, since Mega Media doesn't care about the picture quality of channel 6. The DTV signal can only be seen if you can see the Citicorp building, the Pulse 87 audio can be heard up to 60 miles away, hence it's better to operate a radio station than a TV station.

The more I think about this, the more I think WRGB has come up with a useful loophole not unlike the one that's likely to get NYC a new channel 3 station. I'm working a bit out of my competency here but a few thoughts:

- In theory, all full-power over-the-air analog TV ends late Sunday. This should include WRGB's analog audio carrier. Indeed, that should have ended on June 12th as far as airing anything besides "nightlight" programming is concerned.

- Indeed, an Act of Congress requires the FCC to cancel analog TV licenses as of June 12 + nightlight.

- Arguably, WRGB's analog signal is not a television signal. There is no analog video -- their analog signal is a FM radio station.
(that's certainly what it is from a technical standpoint, and that's certainly how WRGB intends for it to be received, but until June 12th it was licensed as a TV station.)

- WRGB's competitors could argue that WRGB's analog signal constitutes a new commercial service. (it is, after all, a radio station on 87.9, which did not exist until June 12th) An Act of Congress requires the FCC to use auctions to issue commercial licenses in cases where mutually-exclusive applications have been filed. But WRGB's competitors (either the other existing Albany TV stations or any possible new entrants) were not given the opportunity to file competing applications and go through the auction process.

- Is it possible WRGB's competitors have simply decided channel 6 doesn't gain enough advantage from the FM signal to make it worth spending the legal bills on fighting?

- Or that the audience likes the FM service so much that no competitor wants to be known as the firm that forced the analog audio signal off the air?

- I continue to find it VERY hard to believe the FM audio signal isn't interfering with WRGB's own DTV signal. Even if WRGB has pulled in their mask filter to keep DTV energy below 87.5MHz*, they have no control over the filters found in TV receivers. Receivers' circuitry is still going to see the 87.9 FM signal.

- I've now read a suggestion elsewhere on this site that the 87.9MHz WRGB signal is transmitted from a different site than the DTV signal?! That would make the probability of mutual interference considerably greater than it already was.

- But I suppose if WRGB doesn't complain about interference (and they won't!) it's unlikely anyone else will get a hearing with the Commission.

- FWIW, limiting WRGB's video stream to a single 480i doesn't make any difference as far as keeping their digital spectrum below 87.5MHz. More aggressive compression could be used to allow transmission of HD formats over a transport stream that would fit in 5.5MHz. (I'm still saying I wouldn't think existing receivers could decode such a lower bitrate stream, but I also was absolutely CERTAIN the FCC would never approve what WRGB is doing, so don't take my assertions too horribly seriously!)

- For that matter, WRGB themselves state they're running a second subchannel with ThisTV. Dropping that would narrow their requirements down far enough to fit in 5.5MHz without having to switch the main stream to SD.

- I am utterly AMAZED no radio group has yet complained about the Pulse 87 operation. I might only guess the radio industry is tolerating Pulse 87 because they think it's temporary -- it will go away when the FCC gets around to forcing LPs to go digital. Will the radio industry accept a regulatory world with a permanent Pulse 87 presence?


* I also find it hard to believe it would be possible to pull the mask filter in 500KHz without distorting the DTV waveform sufficiently to make reception significantly more difficult if not entirely impossible.
 
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