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Domestic stations near houses/businesses ; overseas AMs/LWs near saltwater?

Does anyone by any chance know which are all the AM stations with live antennas very close to residences or businesses? (I was drilling through Scott Fybush's site many moons ago trying to find them, but got overwhelmed and gave up on it.) I'm thinking something along the lines of having the buildings close enough to the towers to be on top of where the ground system would normally be.
This station, XEAZ-1270 in Tijuana, is a very good example of what I mean for physical distance separation between house and tower. Being only a 500-watt station, though, I doubt that it'd have as strong of a signal inside that house as KCBQ has in these two videos. (Based on a few other antenna comparisons that I have done, I'd guess I'm getting upwards of 50+ dB gain with that utility ground + Select-A-Tenna combination.) For comparison, the barefoot signal near this 2.5 kW DA's tower (photo only) was only about as strong as (or maybe at most a few dB stronger than, judging from the readings I think I remember on the 2nd harmonic which isn't included in the linked video) this SAT+utility-enhanced reception of KFMB 7.3 miles distant (specifically after the day/night pattern change in each mini-segment).
Would someone possibly know of any, for example, 50kW AMs that put a signal like what I'm implying into someone's house or a store, for example? Or at least what are the top several stations in terms of putting the strongest field intensity at a nearby store or house of someone who does NOT work for the station? Which ones put upwards of 154-166 dBµV/m at the nearest human-accessed building? (FCC maximum exposure (1.1310) for general population is about 175.763 dBµV/m below 1.34 MHz and 824/MHz V/m above that in the AM band.)
Bonus points for the nearest station ±10 kHz (if the local is not IBOC, otherwise ±20 kHz if it is) being far enough so its field there is about 14-30 dBµV/m. (Yes, you guess correctly that I'm also interested in knowing what radios (especially ones that could qualify as "ultralights") have good enough selectivity to pull in full NRSC audio on the DX with no splatter or blocking/desense from the local. ;) )

Along the lines of an AM tower near a shopping center ... is there a way to combine good radiation efficiency (510 mV/m/kW or better), low land usage and ability to touch the tower while it's on the air? I understand a Franklin antenna has that efficiency and can do without a ground system (think KFBK and KSTP), combine that with a self-supporting tower and the only "land" the tower takes up is the size covered by the tower base, approximately, and a shunt-fed antenna (saw a pic and article on Scott Fybush's site but I can't find it anymore, also I thought I remembered someone leaning up on KFBK's tower in that article) would allow one to touch the tower (at its base) while it's on the air.
I may be the only one who thinks this, but for example, I think it'd be quite interesting to go to the food court in the local mall, order my lunch, sit down at a table, and look up and see this, especially if it's a 600-kHz-or-below self-supporting true Franklin. ;) (I'd bet the chances of it being one of the towers of a directional Disney/Nickelodeon/etc format signal with a pattern plot like this (WARNING: may be considered NSFW - btw I think I've seen a plot somewhat similar to that on a station somewhere, can't remember which one, though) would be rather slim, though. :eek: hey what type of config (tower ratios, electrical height, phasing, spacing, orientation, etc) might it take to get a pattern similar to that, using as few towers as possible?)

Also what would be some overseas (from the U.S.) mediumwave and longwave stations with transmitter sites very close to the ocean? I'm thinking similar to 660-WFAN/680-WCBS and 1250 KZER, but with preferably higher power (up to 2 MW or whatever their maximum is) transmitters (and an all-saltwater path to USA coastal locations, especially southern California, would be nice), and am especially interested in stations from 153 kHz to, say, 810 kHz or so (but the entire band is fine).
Also, along a saltwater path, if a piece of land intrudes into the path, would the groundwave continue following the shortest distance (great circle) path and cut through the land (being attenuated accordingly)? Or, would it bend around the land, staying on the saltwater, making the path maybe a few percent longer but following the path of least resistance (and being a higher field strength than if it had cut straight across the piece of land and been attenuated accordingly)?
 
pianoplayer88key said:
...Also what would be some overseas (from the U.S.) mediumwave and longwave stations with transmitter sites very close to the ocean.. with preferably higher power (up to 2 MW or whatever their maximum is) transmitters (and an all-saltwater path to USA coastal locations, especially southern California, would be nice),..

According to NEC-2D, a station on 600 kHz supplying 2 megawatts to a 5/8 wave monopole with a zero loss r-f ground connection produces a groundwave field of about 0.91 mV/m at the end of a sea-water path of 10,000 miles.

This calculation does not take into account the curvature of the earth.

Perhaps others will respond to your other conditions/requests.
 
WWZN Boston is in the middle of a Waltham business and shopping center 50KW DA-2 with the ground system paved over
KTAR Phoenix with two Self Supporting towers in a shopping center and also WFIR in Lynchburg VA also in a shopping center
Tried to look up a few more but can't seem to find a way to access the tower site of the week index on Scott's site though I am a member
 
All I can tell you is that I was living on a barrier island in Daytona Beach Shores for a while. My house backed up to the brackish water of the intercoastal waterway. I had extremely reliable daytime reception of all the NYC 50 kW stations except WOR. A fair number of others like WLW, WSM. No Chicagos, but this was on an unmodified SR-2 with no loop antenna. It was absolutely reliable no matter what time of year.

When I moved 3 miles from the barrier island to a house in Port Orange, I had absolutely no daytime reception of the same stations.

A decade earlier, I remember being on the beach at Galveston, and had daytime reception of WLS (when they were music and it mattered). We listened all day.

This leads me to believe that it is the ground conductivity at the receiving location - not the transmitting location - that matters. A good example is WSB, which whines about coverage in Atlanta, but I have received them reliably during the day in Lubbock, TX, which happens to have high ground conductivity. It took a four foot loop and an SR-3, but it was rock solid - ID's confirmed not only WSB, but WSM, all the Chicagos, WCCO 830 from Minneapolis, etc. This was any time of the year. Try that from Dallas with less conductivity - not a trace.
 
K6JHU said:
My recollection is that KTNQ in Los Angeles is in a similar situation

1020 and 1150 are at a 5 tower site in Industy, CA, with a complex of warehouse and light industrial buildings built around the towers. There is a counterpoise system built into the roofs of the buildings and over the parking and loading areas of the site, much like fishnet, about 30 feet off the ground.

KFI also has warehouses built on a portion of its site.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
All I can tell you is that I was living on a barrier island in Daytona Beach Shores for a while. My house backed up to the brackish water of the intercoastal waterway. I had extremely reliable daytime reception of all the NYC 50 kW stations except WOR. A fair number of others like WLW, WSM. No Chicagos, but this was on an unmodified SR-2 with no loop antenna. It was absolutely reliable no matter what time of year.

When I moved 3 miles from the barrier island to a house in Port Orange, I had absolutely no daytime reception of the same stations.

A decade earlier, I remember being on the beach at Galveston, and had daytime reception of WLS (when they were music and it mattered). We listened all day.

This leads me to believe that it is the ground conductivity at the receiving location - not the transmitting location - that matters. A good example is WSB, which whines about coverage in Atlanta, but I have received them reliably during the day in Lubbock, TX, which happens to have high ground conductivity. It took a four foot loop and an SR-3, but it was rock solid - ID's confirmed not only WSB, but WSM, all the Chicagos, WCCO 830 from Minneapolis, etc. This was any time of the year. Try that from Dallas with less conductivity - not a trace.

I'm astounded that you got all those Northern Midwest stations during the day in Galveston any month of the year. I would've never expected that.
 
WSAN-1470 in Allentown, PA has its three in-line, self supporting towers situated right in the middle of a large parking lot with a rather large building just to the north of the north tower. If you go to radio-locator and click on the satellite view of the towers, you can see it clearly.
 
Isn't WSB's towers/ground radials in a shopping center parking lot as well?
 
Bongwater said:
Isn't WSB's towers/ground radials in a shopping center parking lot as well?
Yes the shopping mall was built around the tower. I believe some of the ground system is built into the walls of the stores.

The tower was there first, the land became valuable real estate, so the mall was built.

I am not sure if it was sold or leased.

Another site you might want to see is WGRP 1390 and WVON 1690 Chicago.

1390 is 5kW DA-2 1690 is typical x band 10kW, 1kW.

A high school sits just south of the four towers and condos are just north of the towers.

You can find it on radio locator search.
 
All 3 major Dayton Ohio AMs have subdivisions built around them. WING had NIMBY problems in moving the studios to David Rd. WHIO's towers are further down David Rd.
 
radioman148 said:
I'm astounded that you got all those Northern Midwest stations during the day in Galveston any month of the year. I would've never expected that.

I need to get down there and try it again, now that I am so close. I know WLS ground radials are compromised now, and there is are stations on 890, 780 and 720 that would interfere, but 670 is still open. I need to try a CC radio EP, and use a first rate grounding system, maybe a wire into the seawater to see what happens. I expect 540 from Florida might be a possibility across the gulf. I know other things I used to get from Galveston were New Orleans like locals, I definitely did that again with a GE 3 years ago. Just didn't have the time to do the job right. I also need to do it away from the sea wall, that seems to affect things.
 
Going back to Nashville said:
Bongwater said:
Isn't WSB's towers/ground radials in a shopping center parking lot as well?
Yes the shopping mall was built around the tower. I believe some of the ground system is built into the walls of the stores.

The tower was there first, the land became valuable real estate, so the mall was built.

I am not sure if it was sold or leased.

Another site you might want to see is WGRP 1390 and WVON 1690 Chicago.

1390 is 5kW DA-2 1690 is typical x band 10kW, 1kW.

A high school sits just south of the four towers and condos are just north of the towers.

You can find it on radio locator search.

There's quite a few houses right next to those WGRB & WVON towers. Last time I drove by them there was a lady in her backyard sunning herself on a lounge chair. I wonder if she realized how much radiation she was actually getting?
Regarding WSB's radials being built right into the building of that shopping center, I would imagine that doesn't do their signal too much good.
 
Ok, let's see...

WWZN - this one almost looks promising, at least on the west tower.  The nearest bui9lding (not counting the one right next to the tower as I'm suspecting that may be a transmitter shack, disqualifying it) is about 10 meters away.  At 2909.69 mV/m @ 1 km theoretical RMS, that works out to about 290.97 V/m at the nearest corner of that building.  However, there's at least two things against it - chances are that building by its structure significantly attenuates the signal, AND that tower, from what I can figure out based on the FCC's site, is only used at night.

KTNQ / KTLK - I don't think it's a retail store / shopping mall these towers are mounted on, am I right?  And even if they were, would the signal strength standing directly below the tower's base be considerably less than if you were standing beside the tower the same distance away, besides taking into account the attenuation due to the building's structure?  I'm thinking not being a retail store / shopping mall or residential (house / mobile home / apartment) would disqualify it from what I'm looking for.  But, if someone there might possibly be listening to the radio while they're working there (for example if it was me I might be targetting KXPS, KIHU, KVOI, KNWQ, KVLI, KYDZ or KSL, all midday), then it would still qualify for what I'm looking for.

KFI - Again, those probably aren't retail stores (definitely not houses/apartments/trailer parks) closest to the tower, from what I can see.  But, is it possible poeple working there might be wanting to listen to stations other than KFI during the workday?  (KFI being IBOC does put them toward the low end of preferences, as normally I'd be targetting stations on 630 and 650 if I was working/living there, and IBOC prevents that.)

Several of the stations suggested - WGRP, WVON, WING, WHIO - are situated on relatively large fields, so no buildings come within 1/16 wavelength or 1/8 tower height.  KTAR, WSAN and WSB are out in the parking lot, and generally people will only be there for a few minutes.


So far the best I've found, it seems, is 1270 XEAZ in Tijuana, BCN, whose 1 kW tower (305.68 mV/m @ 1 km @ 1 kW efficiency) is about 2 or 4 meters from the nearest house, it appears.  (The closer measure appears to be a separate back shed, so the longer measure is a backup.)  Doing inverse distance calculation reveals theoretical signal of about 150 V/m on the closer measure and about 75 V/m on the farther one.  I have a feeling it's still nowhere near as strong of a signal as what I'm looking for.


I'm basically looking for stations whose signals are VERY strong (even 150 dBµV/m *AFTER* taking into account any building attenuation, is probably not enough) where people live, or spend their day working, who might be listening to the radio some time in the daytime.  Ideally I'd like it to be a non-IBOC station, as I would be targetting daytime reception of stations under 40 dBµV/m on the frequencies that the IBOC sidebands would otherwise occupy.

More specifically on the signal strength, I'd like the signal to be strong enough so that the Tecsun DSP radios, like the PL-310, PL-606, etc, go into lockup mode in that area, like in the two videos linked below, even if their internal antennas are disconnected. 
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEMLcEqCu3E
0:46 - signal display goes to 00/00 and I have to pull the radio away from the coupled antenna to get the buttons to respond
3:37 - signal display blanks out, returns to 00/00 after I pull radio away from antenna.  buttons are unresponsive even after moving the radio farther from the antenna, requiring me to remove the batteries for a while (after I stop recording the video)
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEIU3mP5f38
0:53 and 2:16 - signal display resets to 00/00, requiring me to move radio away from antenna to get it to respond
BTW I'm guessing that the antenna setup I'm using there gives me approximately 50 dB or more of gain on 1170 (and its harmonics / intermods).  Due to the radio overloading, the gain would at best be MUCH less if I tried any other station, *INCLUDING* 910 KECR which shares the same tower site.

I'm wondering if possibly R. Fry has, by some chance, measured the field intensity that would be necessary to produce that behavior in his Tecsun PL-310 when all antennas (including desoldering the internal ferrite) are disconnected?  (or if anyone else has done a similar field intensity measurement with a calibrated FIM)  That's fairly close to the signal strength I'm seeking for where people wouold be sitting and listening to their (more overload resistant without desensing than the Tecsun) radios. :)
If the tower of a 50kW ND with an efficiency of 510 mV/m @ 1 km @ 1 kW or greater was as close to a house or a store as the tower in my 1270 XEAZ google maps link above, would it produce the signal I'm looking for inside the building?  (All the others suggested are too far from the tower (maximum tower-building separation for me to even consider would be about 10 meters for a 50kW), although one of WWZN's towers comes closest, *IF* you don't take building attenuation into account.)


Also R. Fry's response about the field of a high power station across a long saltwater path was very helpful.  I've been looking for info like that for quite some time, and that really helps.  It seems that, given the right setup at the transmit and receive site and a lack of local interference at the transmit/receive site, it should be possible to do trans-pacific groundwave daytime DX in parts of the mediumwave band.

I'm curious now...  I know such a station doesn't exist now, but how far might a theoretical 2 megawatt station on 153 kHz, with an antenna efficiency of minimum 511.77 mV/m @ 1 km @ 1 kW (KSTP's almost-Franklin according to the FCC, although http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mast_radiator#Anti-fading_aerials mentions circle group aerials - could combining the two possibly get a 1 V/m @ 1 km @ 1 kW or higher efficiency?), theoretically travel across saltwater until the signal either fades to 0.5 dB above the atmospheric noise level during solar & weather minimum (assuming a receive bandwidth of 4 kHz ±3 dB and 10 kHz ±120 dB), OR the longest great circle over water distance according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_points_of_Earth#Along_any_great_circle of almost 32,000 km?  (According to the last linked Wikipedia article, great circle distance is about 19,840 km.)

Also I just remembered another one ... If a non-directional station on 153 kHz or 540 kHz had its transmitting antenna was located at the center of either the Chernobyl or Fukushima's exclusion zone, and the signal output set so that the field intensity at the edge of that zone is 614 V/m (FCC's maximum permitted exposure for general population according to 1.1310, used for reference even though those locations are not under FCC jurisdiction), how far would their respective city-grade signals go, considering the average ground conductivity in the surrounding areas (and for Japan, taking into account the saltwater path for points east)?  (Chernobyl seems to have a 30 km / 19 mi exclusion zone, and Fukushima's exclusion zone seems to be 20 km, with people within 30 km recommended to stay indoors.)
 
pianoplayer88key said:
...So far the best I've found, it seems, is 1270 XEAZ in Tijuana, BCN, whose1 kW tower (305.68 mV/m @ 1 km @ 1 kW efficiency) is about 2 or 4 meters from the nearest house, it appears.... Doing inverse distance calculation reveals theoretical signal of about 150 V/m on the closer measure and about 75 V/m on the farther one. I have a feeling it's still nowhere near as strong of a signal as what I'm looking for.

It is unclear why anyone would need or even want to listen to very weak AM broadcast signals so close to the radiators of other broadcast stations on nearby frequencies. Also it would be remarkable if consumer-level radio receivers subjected to such experiments had survived them without permanent changes in their performance.

But in any case, the electric and magnetic fields of an EM wave do not have the inverse distance relationship at very short distances from a radiating structure that they have in the far field -- a radius beginning at about ten wavelengths. The result of this is that both the electric and the magnetic field close to a radiator increase much more quickly than the inverse distance value as the distance to the radiator decreases. To illustrate:

The E-field calculated by NEC over a perfect ground plane is about 306 mV/m at 1 km for 1 kW radiated by a typical 1/4-wave monopole system used by broadcast stations.

The NEC E-field calculated for 4 meters from the same system is about 344 V/m.

If the inverse distance value applied, then the E-field at 4 meters would be 1000/4 = 250 times the value at 1 km, or 76.5 V/m. So the inverse distance value understates the E-field at that distance by a factor of about 4-1/2 times.

The magnetic field also is much higher than inverse distance predicts from its value at 1 km, and the loopstick antennas used by most consumer AM broadcast receivers respond to a magnetic field, not an electric field.

Those placing themselves and their radios so close to a radiating structure are subjecting both to much higher fields than might be anticipated, without due study.
 
pianoplayer88key said:
KTNQ / KTLK - I don't think it's a retail store / shopping mall these towers are mounted on, am I right? And even if they were, would the signal strength standing directly below the tower's base be considerably less than if you were standing beside the tower the same distance away, besides taking into account the attenuation due to the building's structure?

The complex, light industrial and warehousing, was built on top of the old 70's KTNQ ground system, with the 5 towers remaining in place in "wells" about 12' square and about 30 feet deep. Above the buildings and the parking areas a counterpoise ground system was built, with spot silver welded copper wire being strung over the whole area.

Essentially, the work areas in the buildings were inside a Faraday shield, and reception of outside stations was impossible, not just because of the huge amount of RF.

KFI - Again, those probably aren't retail stores (definitely not houses/apartments/trailer parks) closest to the tower, from what I can see. But, is it possible poeple working there might be wanting to listen to stations other than KFI during the workday?

Considering that KFI accounts for about a third of all AM listening in LA, and overall, AM does not have much listening in under-55 people, who would be the vast majority of workers at such facilities, the question of picking up other AMs there is immaterial.
 
R. Fry said:
It is unclear why anyone would need or even want to listen to very weak AM broadcast signals so close to the radiators of other broadcast stations on nearby frequencies. Also it would be remarkable if consumer-level radio receivers subjected to such experiments had survived them without permanent changes in their performance.

Format. Houston is a great example. We have a local 850 jabbering foreign, which I don't speak. But put them in a null, I can get KONO 860 from San Antonio, which has a format I like. Every radio in my house, is arranged to throw a null at the local 850, so my wife can hear the station she likes. So if I want that format, I have to listen to a very weak AM broadcast signal next to a local.

People aren't going to settle for what the local stations want to broadcast. DX is a vanishing skill, those of us who know how to do it have broken local monopolies for decades. Younger listeners who don't get the formats they want resort to iDevices, Satellite, Pandora, streaming, or just give up on radio. End of story. Any broadcaster who thinks they can force people to change their musical taste is crazy. You can add that to a list of things that won't happen. People will not be put into neat little format boxes. They will break out of them and go elsewhere.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
R. Fry said:
It is unclear why anyone would need or even want to listen to very weak AM broadcast signals so close to the radiators of other broadcast stations on nearby frequencies. Also it would be remarkable if consumer-level radio receivers subjected to such experiments had survived them without permanent changes in their performance.

Format. Houston is a great example. We have a local 850 jabbering foreign, which I don't speak. But put them in a null, I can get KONO 860 from San Antonio, which has a format I like. (etc)

That is a good approach as long as the receiver is not deliberately placed within a few dozen feet of a radiating MW tower to find out how that affects the reception of a distant station on a nearby frequency. If the wish is to listen to the distant station, the best chance of doing that is to minimize the field of an interfering signal, not to maximize it.
 
Of course, McIntosh did the 12 Volt directly applied to the 75 ohm input test at 104.3, and measured the response at 96.3, on the MR-78 and MR-80, but those were built to take it. I don't think I ever got closer than the 500 mV/m contour any AM station with any radio except a car radio. I did pin the signal meter on WJJD 1160 in Northwest Suburban Chicago on the Sony CF-450, but out in the open and not next to a vertical metal object.
 
Pity the residents living in the subdivisions within 1 km or so of WJR. When WJR was built that area was all farm land for miles around.

Below are the calculated fields those homeowners have to live with.

Frequency = 0.76 MHz
Power = 50,000 watts
Max field = 7.81061 V/m RMS
at X,Y,Z = 800, 0, 0 ft

X (ft) E (V/m RMS)
800 7.81061
1200 6.24115
1600 5.08227
2000 4.24422
2400 3.62697
2800 3.15903
3200 2.79433
 
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