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Gregg said:
Well, since about 70% of US Spanish dominant Hispanics are Mexican or of Mexican heritage, it makes sense to appeal to them. But mostly ESPN is a lot about US baseball, the ever-mysterious American football, basketball... which are not of much interest to Spanish domiants from anywhere.
When you see the station getting a 0.2 in Las Vegas or XESPN in San Diego getting an average 0.3 share or KWKW in a market that is 42% Hispanic getting a 0.5 share you can't say that the format is exactly booming in the very Mexican Hispanic markets.
Mostly, it is because a sports station does not work even if local, and one about non-local sports (remember, PR has its own Olympic team, own baseball and basketball leagues) would not work. WQII, a highly medicre AM facility that only covers about 1/3 of the market is an ESPN affiliate, but does not carry it all. It does not show in the ratings at all.
WCEC, a suburban facility.
It's more like 5%.
Now that is just not true. One of the biggest challenges of Spanish language radio has been getting major advertisers in. Each year it is better, but the dollars placed against Spanish speakers index below the expenditures in English based on population. This is why, in many markets, Spanish language stations have below 1:1 power ratios. And that's why you still find retailers who "don't want those people in here."
As to accountability, there are large Hispanic market agencies and divisions of general market shops. All are held accountable by their clients on metrics ranging from CPP to measurements based on sales, consumer research, etc.
The station was well below #1 in sales demos... in fact, it was heavily 55+ and was pretty much unsalable. It was #1 on occasion because nobody else wanted to go for that audience, since they knew it was not salable.
The station now is billing nearly 70% less than it did in the last year it ran as easy listening / soft AC. The switch was not successful and it was 11th last year in billings, while it was, although not moving up, 6th or 7th before.
I doubt it is making any money at all. Hispanic buys frequenty do not get outside the top 25 Hispanic markets, and WPB is well beyond that.
That's putting the ESPN in "español"!
J
Jul
Guest
OK. I stand corrected on the numbers for WRLX. And David is right that in markets with sizable Hispanic populations, stations broadcasting in Spanish do not earn as much money as they should for their ratings... similar to underperforming Urban stations.
But on the other hand, I believe if you put a Spanish language station on the air in a sizable market with minimal Hispanic media, even if it gets little or no ratings, you're going to get buys from some large national or regional advertisers automatically. Those advertisers have decided that a given percentage of thier ad dollars should go to Spanish-language media.
So I'm confident that when it goes on the air, WWDB 860 ESPN Deportes will get ads from some of the big beer, fast food, auto, soda, department store and electronic store accounts, even before it shows up in the ratings.
I've heard Latino stations that barely make the ratings running McDonald's, Wal-Mart and Budweiser ads, something I know I'd never hear if these stations broadcast in English. And I'm talking about stations doing local music programming, not ads that might get carried on the national ESPN Deportes feed.
Gregg
[email protected]
But on the other hand, I believe if you put a Spanish language station on the air in a sizable market with minimal Hispanic media, even if it gets little or no ratings, you're going to get buys from some large national or regional advertisers automatically. Those advertisers have decided that a given percentage of thier ad dollars should go to Spanish-language media.
So I'm confident that when it goes on the air, WWDB 860 ESPN Deportes will get ads from some of the big beer, fast food, auto, soda, department store and electronic store accounts, even before it shows up in the ratings.
I've heard Latino stations that barely make the ratings running McDonald's, Wal-Mart and Budweiser ads, something I know I'd never hear if these stations broadcast in English. And I'm talking about stations doing local music programming, not ads that might get carried on the national ESPN Deportes feed.
Gregg
[email protected]
radioguy39nj said:
Absolute nonsense unless you live southwest of the transmitter site, which, as a poster on the Philadelphia board, you may do. WEPN protects the Mexican border (1050 is a Mexican clear channel; US use of 1050 by a Class B station in New York City operating with 50 kW-U DA-1 is provided for in a special US-Mexican treaty. I believe that the same treaty provides for the Class B AM 1220 in Cleveland, which also runs 50 kW-U DA-1. Like 1050, 1220 is a Mexican clear channel.) In WEPN's case, the protection to Mexico does double duty; it allowed the New York 1050 to be sited a mere 80 miles to the northeast of first-adjacent Class A KYW, which, in turn runs 50 kW DA-1 and protects the New York station.
Gregg said:
Double no. First, there are no significant Hispanic markets without Spanish langauge media. Philadelphia, however, is just not a significant Hispanic market due to small total population (5%) and high assimilation (Puerto Ricans). In the sizable markets, the good Spanish language stations will get ratings, and buys.
Second, while many but certainly not all major advertisers recognize the Hispanic market, they do Spanish language placement via a subsidiary of the account's agency or a totally separate one. Those agencies are responsible for the same kinds of delivery metrics any agency is.
But that does not necessarily mean radio. If we are talking national, lots of dollars go to TV, where there are a number of options which, via cable, deliver high-90's percentages of market delivery. And there is unnwired network sales, where a slew of stations get on a buy based on efficiency; in these cases stations with tiny numbers get national accounts, but maybe a few dollars a spot as part of a package. As a standalone, those stations would never be bought. Then there are wired nets, including ESPN, where the local station gets programming and gives up inventory... thus even the affiliate in Mexicali, serving the boom town of Calexico, gets on the buy (the only "boom" in Calexico is the one felt on Easter weekend...)
Most will be via the network, and won't benefit the station. It will take time to build a local ad base, just as in any other format. Fortunately for them, there are advertisers who like the sports environment and that will help in any language.
Again, often this comes from unwired network sales or inventory required for some form of syndicated programming. At the end of the day, the agency doing the placement has to be able to provide cost per exposure data that soundly validates the expense.
DanStrassberg said:
Dan, I thought 1060/Philadelphia is a class B.
Sam Lit said:
KYW is a Class A. Before the change in AM class designations, it was a IB. All the IAs and IBs became Class As. Since then, two Class As (WOWO and KGA) have been downgraded to Class Bs. All US Class As receive protection of their nighttime skywave contours, though a little-known fact is that few receive protection to the 0.5 mV/m 50% skywave contour, which is the nominally protected contour. Class As also receive critical-hours protection from co-channel daytime skywave to their 0.5 mV/m contours and are the only station class that receives such protection. Non-critical-hours daytime protection from co-channel groundwave interference is nominally to the 0.1 mV/m groundwave contour, but as a practical matter, nobody really cares about that and anyhow, first-adjacent interference makes that protection quite irrelevant for most Class As. All US Class As except one operate 50 kW-U. All of those that used to be IAs except for WBZ and WWL, which are DA-1, operate ND-U. Several of the former IBs are also ND-U: WGY, KOA, KNX, and KNBR are the ones I can think of. Somebody will probably come up with at least one more; I can never seem to remember all of them. As for the Class A that doesn't operate with 50 kW-U, that's KNZR Bakerfield CA, which is grandfathered with 25 kW-D/10 kW-N DA-N.
Oh, and Class As are supposed to operate with a higher antenna efficiency than the minimum for Class Bs and Class Ds, though a few waivers have been granted for antenna efficiency.
I see KGA had a downgrade to 15,000 watts. Why the downgrade?
Sam Lit said:
Mapleton bought KGA so it could upgrade co-channel KPIG, which it also owns and which covers the north end of SF Bay, including a lot of the City of San Francisco by day. Because of the need to protect KGA, KPIG was limited to 230W at night (IIRC, it remained a Class D AM with no protected night coverage.) Between its own low power and the interference from KGA, KPIG's night signal was pretty much nonexistent except right around the Tx site (a very rare rooftop DA atop a warehouse near the waterfront in Oakland). With KGA downgraded, KPIG can now increase its night power ten-fold and remove one "tower" from its five-tower night array. The tower that is coming down is not a tower at all, but rather a drop-wire suspended from a horizontal wire attached to the tops of two of the four real towers. KPIG will now have legitimate nighttime coverage of most of the City of San Francisco. Note, however, that KPIG cannot cover any part of the Bay area south of SF by day or night. There is a Class B an on 1500 in San Jose (KSJX) which runs 10 kW-D/5 kW-N DA-2.
Besides KPIG, there are other stations on 1510 in CA, south of the Bay area. that will benefit significantly from the removal of nighttime interference from KGA, which, as a Class A, covered a large swath of CA, OR, and WA at night.
Just out of curiosity, how does CHUM Toronto fit into the question of 1050 WEPN's signal? From the coverage maps at www.radio-locator.com, it looks like WEPN nulls not just to the southwest for Mexico and Philadelphia, but to the entire west, including the northwest, so it doesn't conflict with co-channel CHUM, 300-something miles to the northwest.
CHUM's signal often steps on WEPN in Western New Jersey and the Hudson Valley, leading folks in those areas to complain about AM 1050 and hope for an FM signal for ESPN in the NY market.
Of course, not all 50,000 watt NYC radio stations are omni-directional. If you live in a suburb of NYC that used to be underpopulated farm land 50 years ago, you should not expect to get all the NYC AM stations like you get 660, 770 and 880. On the other hand, it is rough if you're a sports fan and you're missing out on play-by-play for your favorite teams because they're on 1050 WEPN.
Gregg
[email protected]
CHUM's signal often steps on WEPN in Western New Jersey and the Hudson Valley, leading folks in those areas to complain about AM 1050 and hope for an FM signal for ESPN in the NY market.
Of course, not all 50,000 watt NYC radio stations are omni-directional. If you live in a suburb of NYC that used to be underpopulated farm land 50 years ago, you should not expect to get all the NYC AM stations like you get 660, 770 and 880. On the other hand, it is rough if you're a sports fan and you're missing out on play-by-play for your favorite teams because they're on 1050 WEPN.
Gregg
[email protected]
Gregg said:
In my earlier post on Class A AMs in this thread, I didn't discuss Canada's in-name-only Class As. CFRB is one such (perhaps the first of all of them). These INO Class As do not receive protection to their nighttime skywave coverage. Nevertheless, WINS's night pattern protects CFRB to a much greater degree than WEPN's DA-1 pattern protects CHUM. CHUM is a Class B. CFRB protects WINS at night and CHUM also protects WEPN at night. In theory, I believe that CHUM's protection of WEPN is slightly more restricitve toward New York than CFRB's protection of WINS, but I need to check that out.
I just checked. CHUM's protection of WEPN is (in theory, at least) significantly more restrictive than CFRB's protection of WINS, so CHUM ought to cause WEPN less trouble than CFRB causes to WINS.
Gregg said:
The Jets are effectively blacked out on radio in Western NJ and Suffolk County LI since the simulcast with 770 AM was discontinued. Jets' fans in these areas are crying for WEPN to get on a class B FM.
They have every right to be angry! The Bengals, Browns, Seahawks and others have AM/FM simulcasts that service their entire market areas. The Jets in the #1 market fail to reach about 50% of their fan base on terrestrial radio.
evolve991 said:
You mean "how do they get an accurate count on a segment of the population..."
Well, first, a majority of the Philadelphia Hispanic population is Puerto Rican in heritage or origin. They are as well counted as, let's say, people from Virginia. They are all born US Citizens and just as willing to be counted in the Census as any other group.
As to Hispanics in general, less than 15% nationally is illegal / undocumented, while the rest are legal via citizenship by birth, naturalization or are here on valid residency permits.
The Census counts all people inside our borders, irrespective of status. They widely advertise the fact that there is no connection with ICE (INS) and that no risk is involved in filling out the Census form. In addition, the Census via the annual ACS does projections using sampling and projection techniques. While sampling is not allowed for the Census, sampling techniques can often be better at arriving at accurate results than an actual census in modern times because models using things like car registrations, school registration, etc. can supplement more conventional head counts.
So, the population estimates for the Hispanic population are within the same range of accuracy as any other segment of our population.
An historical reference note: AM 860 as WTEL was Philadelphia's only Spanish language station for many years, as far as I remember from at least the 1960's to late 1990's. Morning drive was purchased by Rev. Harry Bristow who ran contemp. Christian music (English language) to promote his Ambler theatre & bookstore, but the rest of the programming was Spanish, & I believe they ran some Phillies day games. If I remember correctly the programming changed when WWDB 96.5 decided to push their older-demo talk shows to 860 and rebranded it with the WWDB calls. When that didn't work out they went to the business-talk/infomercial format. As WTEL was daytime only, additional Spanish programming ran at night on WCAM/WSSJ and WIBF-FM.
John1 said:
I think WTEL still had some other languages (German and Italian, maybe more) here and there on the schedule at least into the '70s. I remember catching them playing MOR music on a Sunday morning once, with an announcer and even jingles (and some PSAs, but no spots)--they must have had an unsold hour to fill. They used to sign off with a really odd version of the National Anthem--kind of a pseudo-hippie, Up With People-type thing, not what you would expect from that kind of station.
Beasley brought back the WTEL calls for a little while between the talk and biztalk formats, around 2001; they programmed gospel music, and according to the signoff they were doing it from the WTMR studios.
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