For those of you that think FM IBOC has no hash on the adjacents

[jlehmann]

I've got some excellent evidence of what FM IBOC does to an adjacent signal. Saturday night, I happened to catch several Boston stations with their IBOC off.

I was recoding 100.5 WRCH during the time that 100.7 WZLX turned theirs off. Can you tell when the IBOC went off?

http://home.comcast.net/~n1zzn/1005.mp3

I had on 97.1 WQHT when 96.9 WTKK turned theirs back on

http://home.comcast.net/~n1zzn/971.mp3

There was some enhancement that night, but you should still see what it's like when IBOC trashes a strong adjacent station. There are many cases around here, like with 92.3 WPRO/92.5 WXRV, 101.5 WWBB/101.7 WFNX, where this has affected local reception. I know it's not going to do any good at this point, I argued it for way too long. Just figured I'd share the audio of proof of what IBOC hash sounds like. Some of you have continued to post that there is no hash at all, well you are wrong!

 

[Len14043]

Of course there is interference when listening to out-of-market first adjacients. But nobody except dxers will care.

 

[jlehmann]

Of course there is interference when listening to out-of-market first adjacients. But nobody except dxers will care.

There are some people on here that would argue otherwise. This post is for them. Yes, I am a DXer, and IBOC has hurt my hobby greatly.

 

[Radioman100]

Of course there is interference when listening to out-of-market first adjacients. But nobody except dxers will care.

Bingo!

 

[R.F. Burns]

But why listen to some weak station from outside of your market when by listening to your local IBOC station you can hear the same type music clearly. I'm a DXer too. The broadcast bands are a mess. You really can't DX anything any longer unless you live in a real rural area or right along the coast of say New England or up in Canada. The noise floor is so high today from computers, flourecent lights, video monitors and more make any real DXing next to impossible. In the 1980's I was able to receive quite a few stations west of the Mississippi and even heard KFI once. Trans Atlantic DX wasn't unheard of either. I used to hear split channel stations all the time. Mexico could be heard in NY even on my car radio from XERF and XEG. You blame IBOC but I say it is way down the list of RF offenders. There's a site which I belong to which allows you to tune and listen to radio over the internet from stations located all over the world. There's a receiver on the south western UK coast, thorugh which over the past few days I've heard, WEPN, WBBR (Both NYC) WWZN - Boston which soundd like a local as teh signal would fade in to a S meter reading of 9+10 db or more.The X band was great too. All running 1 K night here and I heard stations from Iowa, Texas, New Jersey, Puerto Rico and more. Try that over here since deregulation. Yep, IBOC might make things a bit tougher but DXing in the US hasn't been the same for over 20 years

 

[Len14043]

Of course there is interference when listening to out-of-market first adjacients. But nobody except dxers will care.

There are some people on here that would argue otherwise. This post is for them. Yes, I am a DXer, and IBOC has hurt my hobby greatly.

I am a dxer too. But I think the benefits gained exceed the loss of the ability to receive out-of-market first adjacients. In fact, a power increase is justified. However, your honesty is appreciated in that you admit it hurts your hobby without making statements such as "Makes FM sound like AM".

 

[jlehmann]

I am a dxer too. But I think the benefits gained exceed the loss of the ability to receive out-of-market first adjacients. In fact, a power increase is justified. However, your honesty is appreciated in that you admit it hurts your hobby without making statements such as "Makes FM sound like AM".

Benefits gained? HD Radios are not selling, except to people like us, radio geeks. If they ever turn up the power on the HD signals, I may have to give up the hobby

 

[Radioman100]

I am a dxer too. But I think the benefits gained exceed the loss of the ability to receive out-of-market first adjacients. In fact, a power increase is justified. However, your honesty is appreciated in that you admit it hurts your hobby without making statements such as "Makes FM sound like AM".

Benefits gained? HD Radios are not selling, except to people like us, radio geeks. If they ever turn up the power on the HD signals, I may have to give up the hobby

Don't worry about radio sales, they're coming. HD is now making its way into many different types of products.

Sooner or later, there won't be "radio" and "HD Radio." There will just be radio, with lots of new digital channels.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Radioman100 said:

Sooner or later, there won't be "radio" and "HD Radio." There will just be radio, with lots of new digital channels.

Yes, I'll be glad when HD radio is gone, and "There will just be radio" again. Almost everyone already has "lots of new digital channels" via other means then HD radio.

I rarely DX.

In many major metro areas there is so much new HD radio hiss generated across the AM and FM bands that it makes local radio listening on typical analog radios annoying. The closer you are to the offending HD stations the louder the HD radio hiss, and the more bandspace it destroys. All this additional new noise is not good for your ears or loudspeakers.

In spite of what HD radio promoters claim there is proven local analog audio and signal degradation, and the HD radio signals are far from being as robust, reliable, steady, and problem free as falsely claimed for HD radio.

 

[Radioman100]

Radioman100 said:

Sooner or later, there won't be "radio" and "HD Radio." There will just be radio, with lots of new digital channels.

Yes, I'll be glad when HD radio is gone, and "There will just be radio" again. Almost everyone already has "lots of new digital channels" via other means then HD radio.

I rarely DX.

In many major metro areas there is so much new HD radio hiss generated across the AM and FM bands that it makes local radio listening on typical analog radios annoying. The closer you are to the offending HD stations the louder the HD radio hiss, and the more bandspace it destroys. All this additional new noise is not good for your ears or loudspeakers.

In spite of what HD radio promoters claim there is proven local analog audio and signal degradation, and the HD radio signals are far from being as robust, reliable, steady, and problem free as falsely claimed for HD radio.

You don't DX? So what's your stake in all this? Webcaster?

I ask because your taglines make you look awfully radical, and especially the line about making FM sound like AM and AM like crap prevents you from looking very credible.

Anyone that has heard HD Radio knows how much stock they should put in your comments.

 

[w9wi]

But why listen to some weak station from outside of your market when by listening to your local IBOC station you can hear the same type music clearly.

Often, because no local station is playing the same type music.

Not even on their HD2.

 

[RadioMan203]

I've got some excellent evidence of what FM IBOC does to an adjacent signal. Saturday night, I happened to catch several Boston stations with their IBOC off.

...

I have to agree, those audio snippets are excellent examples of how FM is pretty much ruined for anybody who wishes to participate in DXing these days. With a recent move to a new house the only way I can receive any decent FM will be with a short tower and an FM beam due to the surrounding terrain. I will guarantee I will get some cumulative interference and/or multipath in part due to the additional HD signal transmission.

While I may be a radio "geek" besides being an freelanceengineer, I'm not rushing out to get my HD radio. My own personal thoughts are why pay extra to hear the same mediocre programming as the main channel ... or worse, pay all that extra dough to hear the so-so programming on HD2 channels with less bandwidth than some of the better webcasters.

I'll listen to radio on occasion but for the thrill of DXing I'm going back to shortwave. The minute ibiquity starts selling their bill of good to SW-casters is the minute I toss all my radios into the trashola!

 

[Radioman100]

But why listen to some weak station from outside of your market when by listening to your local IBOC station you can hear the same type music clearly.

Often, because no local station is playing the same type music.

Not even on their HD2.

I'm sure the HD2 formats will be designed to attract as large an audience in their target demo, just as the main channels are. The difference is the HD2 channels will be programmed to serve large niches in many cases.

What format are you trying to receive via DXing that you can't get on HD2?

 

[KB1OKL]

Of course there is interference when listening to out-of-market first adjacients. But nobody except dxers will care.

That's not true, wait until the complaints start to roll in when the iBlock burden is heavier, especially when people start to realize the noise they are hearing is caused by IBOC (In Band Other Channels) rather than just random noise which I'm sure most people still think as of course we all know here that 99.999% of the US public has never even heard of IBOC and already think they are receiving in glorious HD as no station ever tells them otherwise.

 

[KB1OKL]

Of course there is interference when listening to out-of-market first adjacients. But nobody except dxers will care.

That's not true, wait until the complaints start to roll in when the iBlock burden is heavier, especially when people start to realize the noise they are hearing is caused by IBOC (In Band Other Channels) rather than just random noise which I'm sure most people still think, as of course we all know here that 99.999% of the US public has never even heard of IBOC and already think they are receiving in glorious HD (if they are even conscious of it which is doubtful) on their present radios as no station ever tells them otherwise.
My forecast if IBOC is mandated (as that is the only way it will ever catch on) is that 99% of the stations in existence will be forced off the air for a variety of reasons too numerous to mention here but will all be IBOC related in a major or minor way. There will be a few huge superstations left and that will be it. Do I think this would be done on purpose? I don't know but you and I both know that the big boys are well aware that this will happen and don't care and probably welcome it as long as they are one of the ones left after the dust settles. The public both here and in Europe don't like digital radio (the ones that know about that it that is), thinks it's superfluous and avoid it like the plague. Incidentally I am also an AM DXer and it is still possible to receive transatlantic signals nowadays, it's just a lot harder. The TA's are there if you look for them certain nights with good receiving equipment, I am about an hour from the East coast in central MA.

 

[KB1OKL]

I've got some excellent evidence of what FM IBOC does to an adjacent signal. Saturday night, I happened to catch several Boston stations with their IBOC off.

I was recoding 100.5 WRCH during the time that 100.7 WZLX turned theirs off. Can you tell when the IBOC went off?

http://home.comcast.net/~n1zzn/1005.mp3

I had on 97.1 WQHT when 96.9 WTKK turned theirs back on

http://home.comcast.net/~n1zzn/971.mp3

There was some enhancement that night, but you should still see what it's like when IBOC trashes a strong adjacent station. There are many cases around here, like with 92.3 WPRO/92.5 WXRV, 101.5 WWBB/101.7 WFNX, where this has affected local reception. I know it's not going to do any good at this point, I argued it for way too long. Just figured I'd share the audio of proof of what IBOC hash sounds like. Some of you have continued to post that there is no hash at all, well you are wrong!

Incidentally that is almost exactly what iBlock sounds like on AM adjacents also, this new technology is wonderful isn't it? I listen to WARE 1250 WARE, MA sometimes at home and WMKI 1260 Boston MA ruins it for me with their noise. WMKI is only a 5 KW station as is WARE I believe. I am not DXing either it is one of my favorite stations is local and has a broad oldies playlist. WCKY 1530 Cincinnati also sometimes interferes with WWKB 1520 Buffalo which I also like and it is more than twice the distance! I believe I am in the protected contour of WWKB, not sure though.

 

[Dighton Rockhead]

My forecast if IBOC is mandated (as that is the only way it will ever catch on) is that 99% of the stations in existence will be forced off the air for a variety of reasons too numerous to mention here but will all be IBOC related in a major or minor way. There will be a few huge superstations left and that will be it. Do I think this would be done on purpose? I don't know but you and I both know that the big boys are well aware that this will happen and don't care and probably welcome it as long as they are one of the ones left after the dust settles. The public both here and in Europe don't like digital radio (the ones that know about that it that is), thinks it's superfluous and avoid it like the plague.

My take on the situation is not so much that people here and in Europe "don't like" IBOC/DAB/DRM......but rather that they really don't see what the big fuss is all about just to hear the same programming (in most cases) they already get now. You might say that digital solves a problem where people don't see a problem. Relatively few FM multicast channels here offer programming compelling enough to cause people to run out and buy a specialized radio for it.

The thing in particular that leaves me less than thrilled with the HD/IBOC flavor of digital is that I just don't see much room for technical improvement to the system. To me, IBOC looks a whole lot closer to obsolete than it does cutting edge. Meanwhile, the Euopeans are already developing a second generation version of DRM which they are planning to use on the VHF frequencies.

As far as the "herd" getting thinned out here, I think the ecomonics of the marketplace is playing a much greater role in this than anything else. Obviously, the addition of all the adjacent channel steady-state hash won't help matters for smaller stations, and rimshotters attempting to serve a nearby larger metro.

Sadly, the majority of the thinning will occur on the band which has always been my first love......dear old AM.

 

[Radioman100]

My take on the situation is not so much that people here and in Europe "don't like" IBOC/DAB/DRM......but rather that they really don't see what the big fuss is all about just to hear the same programming (in most cases) they already get now. You might say that digital solves a problem where people don't see a problem. Relatively few FM multicast channels here offer programming compelling enough to cause people to run out and buy a specialized radio for it.

How would anyone know what the multicast channels provide?

The only info on HD2 formats that I've found is the HDRadio.com website and the menu looks pretty good: All 70s, All 80s, Dance, Tropical, Smooth Jazz, Classical, Classic Alternative, Classic Hip-Hop, and a simulcast of big AM news talker. That's one market. Wanna guess which one?

Do you think people might be interested in some of those formats if they actually knew they were available to them?

 

[kevtronics]

Of course there is interference when listening to out-of-market first adjacients. But nobody except dxers will care.

NYC FM stations get clobbered within their own FCC protected signal contour due to IBOC hash from adjacent-channel Philadelphia and Allentown stations.

Just try listening to any of the NYC FM stations in Bridgewater, NJ. This is well within the coverage of the NYC stations, but as soon as you head West and cross over the hill, they all fade out to nothing. Of course the NYC FM stations used to get staticky before in that area, but you could still hear them on an average car radio. Now, nothing but hash.

 

[KB1OKL]

My take on the situation is not so much that people here and in Europe "don't like" IBOC/DAB/DRM......but rather that they really don't see what the big fuss is all about just to hear the same programming (in most cases) they already get now. You might say that digital solves a problem where people don't see a problem. Relatively few FM multicast channels here offer programming compelling enough to cause people to run out and buy a specialized radio for it.

How would anyone know what the multicast channels provide?

The only info on HD2 formats that I've found is the HDRadio.com website and the menu looks pretty good: All 70s, All 80s, Dance, Tropical, Smooth Jazz, Classical, Classic Alternative, Classic Hip-Hop, and a simulcast of big AM news talker. That's one market. Wanna guess which one?

Do you think people might be interested in some of those formats if they actually knew they were available to them?

The problem is they are available on the main channels in any major city, so why would anyone go out and buy a new receiver to get them on a second channel? BTW isn't Classic and Hip Hop an oxymoron? ;D