For those of you that think FM IBOC has no hash on the adjacents

[Dighton Rockhead]

The Am solution would be based on the model being used in television's transition to digital. Each AM station would have a "companion" digital-only (preferebly DRM) frequency elsewhere in the spectrum, whether it be tropical SW, Channels 5 & 6, or soemplace else. Assuming that international cooperation could be obtained, tropical SW would probably be the more practical.

Then, after a set number of years where both digital and analog would occur on thier respective frequencies, the proverbial "flash and cut" switchover would take place.

With the IBOC system, people would have to purchase new radios anyway. At least this way, those who purchase the new radios would likely have a much more pleasant listening experience, whether it be in digital, or the dreaded analog.

 

[Chuck]

Let me try to understand your logic. You want to open two VHF channels for a new radio service to replace our current AM BCB. Interesting because how many times have I read here about how terrible it is that people will be "forced" to purchase new radios and here you are suggesting just that.

More people have cheap radios capable of picking up the TV band than have IBOC-capable receivers. Let's see...a portable AM-FM-TV radio from Sony costs US$25. The cheapest HD radio costs $100. Do the math.

A lot of people already have radios that will work. They are sold in the US as being able to receive TV. There are at least two of them in my house right now. They are commonly sold as "shower radios," allowing you to listen to TV while you get ready for work.

There are a lot more where those came from. The only difference is they aren't currently imported into the USA. If there were any demand, there would be an unlimited supply of cheap radios.

As for cost of conversion, a 250 watt FM at about 200 feet will give more or less the same coverage as a "local" AM, especially the ones in the graveyard frequencies. It is perfectly adequate for local coverage of many communities. It may not make it in Dallas, but it would be fine in a lot of places.

A transmitter, stereo audio processor, antenna and feedline to do that costs less than $10,000. The advantage is the FM version could run 24/7 while the AM is usually daytime only. It would also sound a lot better than analog AM. Most AM towers are 200 feet or more. Other than figuring out how to decouple the FM antenna from the hot AM tower, this would be very easy to do.

Doing it would not be very hard or expensive, and a lot cheaper than IBOC.

 

[orange434]

NONE of these examples are protected at his location. NONE. My favorite is the 96.9 WTKK wipes out 97.1 WQHT. Let's get real. If WQHT was the only station in the world, he could build a class "A" station on 97.1 at his house. PLENTY of Clearance. He could then go 115 KM directly TOWARDS WQHT. When he got there he could build ANOTHER full "A" station. Then he cold travel ANOTHER 120 KM towards WQHT and He would be there. No not at the Transmitter. At the edge of their protected contour. After that, you only gotta go ANOTHER 65 km and you're right there at Empire.

see this is why pro-iboc at all costs people are completely lost. you defend a pathetically designed technology with the tagline that radio stations are not meant to be received outside of 20 or so odd miles outside their coverage area. so that excuses the fact that this iboc garbage completely pollutes the band and if the proper time and effort was spent into implementing a better system, it wouldn't need to be transmitted on adjacent sidebands and would actually work half decently! the signals he posted of the stations that were blasted away by the hash sounded quite fine to me, i don't care if their sticks were in new york or pango pango. and if you think this problem doesn't happen in real life, go listen to the dials in between baltimore and dc, new york and philly, la and san diego, and other similar locations in between large markets, and then come back and tell me fm iboc is well-designed. but that's right, the people in between those markets don't matter, they're beyond 20 miles from the transmitters, LOL.

 

[Len14043]

NONE of these examples are protected at his location. NONE. My favorite is the 96.9 WTKK wipes out 97.1 WQHT. Let's get real. If WQHT was the only station in the world, he could build a class "A" station on 97.1 at his house. PLENTY of Clearance. He could then go 115 KM directly TOWARDS WQHT. When he got there he could build ANOTHER full "A" station. Then he cold travel ANOTHER 120 KM towards WQHT and He would be there. No not at the Transmitter. At the edge of their protected contour. After that, you only gotta go ANOTHER 65 km and you're right there at Empire.

see this is why pro-iboc at all costs people are completely lost. you defend a pathetically designed technology with the tagline that radio stations are not meant to be received outside of 20 or so odd miles outside their coverage area. so that excuses the fact that this iboc garbage completely pollutes the band and if the proper time and effort was spent into implementing a better system, it wouldn't need to be transmitted on adjacent sidebands and would actually work half decently! the signals he posted of the stations that were blasted away by the hash sounded quite fine to me, i don't care if their sticks were in new york or pango pango. and if you think this problem doesn't happen in real life, go listen to the dials in between baltimore and dc, new york and philly, la and san diego, and other similar locations in between large markets, and then come back and tell me fm iboc is well-designed. but that's right, the people in between those markets don't matter, they're beyond 20 miles from the transmitters, LOL.

The FM stations in Cincinnati and Dayton sound great in analog and digital (especially digital) between those cities. I don't see any evidence of signals being "blasted away" by IBOC hash. Another poster came to the same conclusion while visiting Cincinnati. In fact, the Dayton signals can be received in Cincinnati and vica-versa. I travel often and know that problem doesn't exists in other metro areas either, and will state that FM IBOC was well designed.

 

[Tom Wells]

Many people will and do listen to what they want, totally disregarding signal degradation, AM or FM.
They know what they can expect from their radios, and use them in total ignorance of market definitions.

This is the issue I have referred to to as changing the rules of the game.

The FCC "gave away" our "right", implied, expected, accustomed or what have you, from a listeners viewpoint.

Whereas the original charter of the FRC was to bring the best use of MW spectrum to greatest amount of listeners,
the current FCC's approval of a system which favors so few local listeners to the detriment everyone else is
so antithetical as to be absurd. (Particularly for the MW case.)

 

[orange434]

The FM stations in Cincinnati and Dayton sound great in analog and digital (especially digital) between those cities. I don't see any evidence of signals being "blasted away" by IBOC hash. Another poster came to the same conclusion while visiting Cincinnati. In fact, the Dayton signals can be received in Cincinnati and vica-versa. I travel often and know that problem doesn't exists in other metro areas either, and will state that FM IBOC was well designed.

ok, but are any of the dayton and cincy signals adjacent to each other? i don't believe so, and that's where the problem lies inbetween those markets i mentioned.

 

[clouseau]

NONE of these examples are protected at his location. NONE. My favorite is the 96.9 WTKK wipes out 97.1 WQHT. Let's get real. If WQHT was the only station in the world, he could build a class "A" station on 97.1 at his house. PLENTY of Clearance. He could then go 115 KM directly TOWARDS WQHT. When he got there he could build ANOTHER full "A" station. Then he cold travel ANOTHER 120 KM towards WQHT and He would be there. No not at the Transmitter. At the edge of their protected contour. After that, you only gotta go ANOTHER 65 km and you're right there at Empire.

see this is why pro-iboc at all costs people are completely lost. you defend a pathetically designed technology with the tagline that radio stations are not meant to be received outside of 20 or so odd miles outside their coverage area.

That's a catchy thing for you to say, but it's not what the quote says. The quote, illustrates the insanity that is the DX community. The refrain that 300+ KM Tropo skip was damaged by a class B local FM on a first adjacent with HDis foolish.

so that excuses the fact that this iboc garbage completely pollutes the band and if the proper time and effort was spent into implementing a better system, it wouldn't need to be transmitted on adjacent sidebands and would actually work half decently!

Actually I think you'll find there are quite a few people that think it does work half decently.

the signals he posted of the stations that were blasted away by the hash sounded quite fine to me, i don't care if their sticks were in new york or pango pango. and if you think this problem doesn't happen in real life, go listen to the dials in between baltimore and dc, new york and philly, la and san diego, and other similar locations in between large markets, and then come back and tell me fm iboc is well-designed. but that's right, the people in between those markets don't matter, they're beyond 20 miles from the transmitters, LOL.

Your persuasion works well. ESPECIALLY when you convienitly change the 300 KM actual figure in the example and substitute your "20 miles." What the heck, they're all just numbers, right?

Clouseau

 

[orange434]

Your persuasion works well. ESPECIALLY when you convienitly change the 300 KM actual figure in the example and substitute your "20 miles." What the heck, they're all just numbers, right?

Clouseau

i should have been clear when i said that that i wasn't referring to your 300 km statistic, i was referring to another post in here that said something about how people inside somerset county, nj (part of the new york arbitron market) should accept interference from philly iboc on their radios. at any rate, i clearly understand expecting reception of ny signals in boston is unrealistic, that wasn't my point. but expecting reception of a signal at 30 or 40 miles away from the transmitter of a class b signal should be a given, i don't care where or how, and in many cases iboc is causing that reception to be difficult or impossible. the fact people would tout such a setup as ideal is beyond my wildest comprehension.

 

[clouseau]

Your persuasion works well. ESPECIALLY when you convienitly change the 300 KM actual figure in the example and substitute your "20 miles." What the heck, they're all just numbers, right?

Clouseau

i should have been clear when i said that that i wasn't referring to your 300 km statistic, i was referring to another post in here that said something about how people inside somerset county, nj (part of the new york arbitron market) should accept interference from philly iboc on their radios. at any rate, i clearly understand expecting reception of ny signals in boston is unrealistic, that wasn't my point. but expecting reception of a signal at 30 or 40 miles away from the transmitter of a class b signal should be a given, i don't care where or how, and in many cases iboc is causing that reception to be difficult or impossible. the fact people would tout such a setup as ideal is beyond my wildest comprehension.

OK...

I have searched for "Somerset" in this thread and NOTHING comes up.

I'm not willing to talk about it or refute you points, but when you answer a direct quote and then lead us on a 'No reference" post about how it "Ought to work at 30-40 miles" reference is just not viable..

How about this...
http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,89279.msg675685.html#msg675685

The JVC KD-HDR1 in my vechicle locks in that station continusly up to 45-50 miles from the stations broadcast tower in Highland, NY.

I would also point out that A's & C3's are dicey at this distance...

B1's and C2's are on the line.

And all stations are below the 45-50 mile results...

Where's the beef? ? ?
Clouseau