FUNNY FUNNY! The Edge in Phoenix Trying to Copy Indie 103.1?

[sfradio]

intelligent people stopped listening to radio when classical Kmozart flipped to country

 

[briancraig]

I would like to see where KCRW, KUSC and KPCC fall in the high income list.

Indie 103 was a great radio station to those who are serious rock music fans. I think that is one distinction we can agree on. Everyone likes music, so I'm defining the "serious" listener is one who buys a lot of music, attends a lot of shows, reads about music etc. In other words, it is a big part of their life. I doubt if the average KIIS listener fits that description.

I also think it is unfair to make any judgement about Indie's format validity since it was on 103.1, not a full market signal. How can you compare Indie to KROQ or KYSR when you can't even pick Indie up in Burbank. Until someone tries Indie's format on a Class B frequency like 100.3 then I don't think anyone really can say if it was a station that would or could be successful.

 

[radiojomo]

I would like to see where KCRW, KUSC and KPCC fall in the high income list.

Indie 103 was a great radio station to those who are serious rock music fans. I think that is one distinction we can agree on. Everyone likes music, so I'm defining the "serious" listener is one who buys a lot of music, attends a lot of shows, reads about music etc. In other words, it is a big part of their life. I doubt if the average KIIS listener fits that description.

I also think it is unfair to make any judgement about Indie's format validity since it was on 103.1, not a full market signal. How can you compare Indie to KROQ or KYSR when you can't even pick Indie up in Burbank. Until someone tries Indie's format on a Class B frequency like 100.3 then I don't think anyone really can say if it was a station that would or could be successful.

I couldn't agree more. We don't know if an indie rock format is successful or not. But I have a good feeling that if it was tried, it would not be necessarily horrible. KBZT down in San Diego dominates over KIOZ and XTRA in the Arb. survey and they have a format similar to what Indie was.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

I would like to see where KCRW, KUSC and KPCC fall in the high income list.

Indie 103 was a great radio station to those who are serious rock music fans. I think that is one distinction we can agree on. Everyone likes music, so I'm defining the "serious" listener is one who buys a lot of music, attends a lot of shows, reads about music etc. In other words, it is a big part of their life. I doubt if the average KIIS listener fits that description.

I also think it is unfair to make any judgement about Indie's format validity since it was on 103.1, not a full market signal. How can you compare Indie to KROQ or KYSR when you can't even pick Indie up in Burbank. Until someone tries Indie's format on a Class B frequency like 100.3 then I don't think anyone really can say if it was a station that would or could be successful.

Oh geez do we have to go through this again?

Indie was pummled by KROQ and KYSR even in its limited coverage area. David E. has provided the numerical horror show in the past, don't make him do it again. The only thing a bigger signal would do for Indie is make the failure of the station bigger. And let me tell you, I'm no hater here, I liked Indie and listened to it often (gotta agree with Skinner though, not every song was great. Some bands were played without regard to musical talent). But still a great choice on the dial. Sad to see it go.

But here's the deal. It covered the area where the hip people supposedly live, which is West LA and Santa Monica, with some OC thrown in for good measure. Do you really think that extending the signal to the masses who live in the SF and SG valleys would really increase the percentage of listenership in the area sample? No way.

Guys, it is time to face reality. Indie was a niche station, that served a niche audience that was appropriately on a weak signal that still covered a large part of its total potential listening audience. And market forces still eventually dictated that it must go for something else that gets higher ratings. I don't like it any more than you do, but I've learned to live with it. Indie lasted a long time longer than the pundits here (including myself) said it would. Cherish the memories just like I cherish my KMET memories.

I couldn't agree more. We don't know if an indie rock format is successful or not. But I have a good feeling that if it was tried, it would not be necessarily horrible. KBZT down in San Diego dominates over KIOZ and XTRA in the Arb. survey and they have a format similar to what Indie was.

 

[JimmyJames]

I'll concede here that perhaps "intelligent" isn't the best descriptor. Still, my point was I don't see the basis for mocking the audience of Indie.

Those of us who support formats like alternative, triple A, and other more diverse formats, tend to view our audience as often more interested in political causes, technological advances, and passionate about music and social issues. This isn't always true, but it does fit a lot of them. And it also fits a lot of the history of the modern rock/independent genre.

I just don't see the basis for suggesting that Indie's audience is somehow less involved or ignorant than a listener to a competing mainstream station. Unless you completely ignore the lifestyle and interests of the listeners of stations like KCRW, Indie, and 94.9.

I'll agree it seems like it's too small an audience for commercial radio in LA to stick with. But one wonders if it were programmed in the style of 94.9 San Diego, if it would be any more successful. Perhaps not now, squeezed between 98-7 and KROQ. But at one time, if say, 98-7 had gone in that direction, or KROQ hadn't gone after nu metal, then today LA might have a more balanced station, albeit more mainstream than Indie.

 

[radiojomo]

Here's my question to everyone
What do you think would bring in more revenue and audience
Indie on a Class B signal or The Sound on a Class B signal?

 

[musicfan101]

Here's my question to everyone
What do you think would bring in more revenue and audience
Indie on a Class B signal or The Sound on a Class B signal?

Indie, because of the diverse music selection, people have respect for the DJ's because they play what they want - no corporate suits above them, not to mention you are more connected to the DJ's they sponsor(ed) or host a ton of shows by bands that enough people listen to, they had specialty shows by well-known people in the music/entertainment industry, great giveaways - there was a better chance for people to win....there is much more...

 

[musicfan101]

i don't get it why do most people on this board seem to discriminate against indie 1031 and its listeners? it f'n annoying! i wonder how most people on this board would feel if i talked about how bad their station is or their playlist is? honestly, just stop doing that! indie was a great cutting edge station, who cares about the rankings they had with certain demographics, flat out it was good, and people in the music industry feel the same way....

I'm in the music industry and I've always maintained that Indie was mediocre at best. The talent was lethargic and disengaged and the music selections were often marginal. I'll say it again: The fact that a song is different and unfamiliar doesn't necessarily make it good. As often as not, I heard songs on Indie that weren't that good. If that's what cutting edge means, fine, but "flat out good?" Not to my ear. If calling it like I see it is "discriminating," then I guess I'm just a big ol' bigot. Oh, and get a sense of humor...drain bamage, indeed. I'm quite amused.

Okay, I'll restate what I said, most people in the music industry felt that Indie was an excellent station because it helped give more exposure to bands out there who don't get any playtime on other stations, they had talent on their that no other station in the L.A. area could top, and the DJ's play what they wanted - and what they wanted were songs that no other station had even heard of. Some people in the music industry don't like Indie because they prefer to hear the same songs every few hours, they prefer having closed minds, and/or are envious of the fact that they were never employed by such a independent entity.

In my opinion, having music played on commercial radio that is "different and unfamiliar" is good and it helped musically deprived citizens have open minds, especially in music other that rock.

I'm not trying to say that you are the only one who discriminates against Indie and its listeners, every single one of these "radio experts" who say the exact same things as you do as well, and come up with completely B.S. demographics, such as "how the station does with wealthy people" or "how the station does with young white kids" or "how the station does with people who live in certain parts of L.A." or maybe even "how the station does with 25-54 year old men who wake up in the morning."

How about this, why don't we all just say which station(s) we listen to, and lets all just take turns bashing those stations on how bad the talent is a few thousand times and see how everyone else feels???

 

[davideduardo]

Here's my question to everyone
What do you think would bring in more revenue and audience
Indie on a Class B signal or The Sound on a Class B signal?

The Sound is already on a class B signal.

 

[radioresearcher]

I would like to see where KCRW, KUSC and KPCC fall in the high income list.

Indie 103 was a great radio station to those who are serious rock music fans. I think that is one distinction we can agree on. Everyone likes music, so I'm defining the "serious" listener is one who buys a lot of music, attends a lot of shows, reads about music etc. In other words, it is a big part of their life. I doubt if the average KIIS listener fits that description.

I also think it is unfair to make any judgement about Indie's format validity since it was on 103.1, not a full market signal. How can you compare Indie to KROQ or KYSR when you can't even pick Indie up in Burbank. Until someone tries Indie's format on a Class B frequency like 100.3 then I don't think anyone really can say if it was a station that would or could be successful.

I couldn't agree more. We don't know if an indie rock format is successful or not. But I have a good feeling that if it was tried, it would not be necessarily horrible. KBZT down in San Diego dominates over KIOZ and XTRA in the Arb. survey and they have a format similar to what Indie was.

Say what? KIOZ was No. 2 25-54 in the most recent weekly in SD while KBZT was barely in the top 10.

 

[radioresearcher]

Here's my question to everyone
What do you think would bring in more revenue and audience
Indie on a Class B signal or The Sound on a Class B signal?

Neither. A format similar to what Movin' was doing on 93.9 and Bonneville does on 100.3 in Chicago.

 

[briancraig]

"A format similar to what Movin' was doing on 93.9 and Bonneville does on 100.3 in Chicago"

In other words, another station playing the same 250 overplayed, burnt to a crisp songs that can be heard on numerous other radio stations.

I'm not saying Indie was programmed correctly. But I think if you put a modified more hit oriented version on a class B signal, you would have a very desirable audience. KYRSR has moved somewhat in that direction.

I also think to say that KROQ beat Indie even in Santa Monica and West L.A. is still not valid. The full market signals are just better known than the Class As. They have more of an image, so listeners are more aware of those stations. If you commute from Santa Monica to Canoga Park, you couldn't hear Indie all the way which could effect what station you listened to at home. Most people are not as radio aware as those who read this board.

I'd bet big money that in the 1970s when 103.1 was beautiful music, KBIG and KJOI had more listeners in Santa Monica. When they were AC in the 80s, I'm sure KOST probably still beat them. Outside of ethnic programming, it is just impossible to compete with the bigger signals.

 

[RBB05]

understanding my place as a relative newcomer to this board, I see so much discussion of Indie and what it did and didn't do, and some is interesting and some so way off base. Clearly, some here are experts in analyzing map contours versus numbers in those geographical pods. Others are more inclined to discuss some of the inane music Indie played as the explanation for its death.

Here are some "other" factors:
Indie stopped covering much of OC about three years ago when Entravision got approval to alter the signal coverage. Coverage in North OC did Indie no favors because of the demographics of that population. Indie needed South OC and lost it. In its place, it picked up much of the San Fernando Valley. A waste for Indie, but a big boon for Gato. Gao's audience will gladly participate in the survey. And to say KROQ beat Indie in Santa Monica or other areas is a little misleading because Indie's target audience and KROQ's target audience were not the same.

Intelligent audience; I do not know how we analyze this....IQ test with your PPM monitor? If you listened to some of the guests and some of the guest hosts there were some truly creative thinkers who were fans of Indie. They came on because of their love of the station. As for the audience ans the relative lack of ratings. The station was targeting the high end west side for the last 3 years+. I happen to know someone who is a very bright civil rights attorney in Bev. Hills who was a devoted Indie fan. Think he was ever going to fill out a diary or wear a PPM pager???? One of the lead researchers at the UCLA Medical Center Neurological sciences center used to e-mail Indie regularly with things that he liked when listening. Would he fill out a diary or wear a PPM pager if called? Doubtful. I am not claiming Indie had a bunch of brain surgeons for an audience. I am saying that analyzing numbers/geography/intelligent audience is a difficult taks at best as most of the Indie audience was never going to answer the call from a survey company.

Steve Jones: clearly both entertaining and troubling at the same time. But the station got many of te other DJ's and guests because Steve Jones was Steve Jones. Anyone else know where you can find what would seem to be an unusual match of Hall and Oates sitting in with Steve for an hour playing an acoustical set of '60's R&B. Steve was out there, but it worked well more times than not.

Indie had some of the better, if not smaller, promotions in town. The staff always cared about the station more than ownership did and people that speak of their time there clearly poured their hearts into it everyday. The only reason Indie even had any outdoor marketing was because it was free since EVC owned an outdoor company.

There was a constant chasm as to what to do with programming. Two PD's in the life of Indie with very different ideas. Play the edgy off the beaten track and hard to find stuff? Play the new cutting edge stuff mixed with "hits" from the past? Play the obscure that all of 30 people in LA will know? Indie never had the ratings analysis to answer the question because the heart of its audience was not portrayed in the ratings.

I guess my bottom line is, Indie had no easy answers and as much if not more than most stations, subte nuances made all the difference between success and failure.

 

[davideduardo]

Indie stopped covering much of OC about three years ago when Entravision got approval to alter the signal coverage. Coverage in North OC did Indie no favors because of the demographics of that population.

Actually, the theoretical signal was directionalized towards the south. That allowed Santa Monica to get more central LA coverage.

Indie needed South OC and lost it. In its place, it picked up much of the San Fernando Valley.

Indie, or KDLD, does not cover any of the SFV with a usable signal. The Santa Monicas are in the way.

A waste for Indie, but a big boon for Gato. Gao's audience will gladly participate in the survey.

No, it won't. Spanish dominant Hispanics are a difficult group, and there is way too much weighting of the panel in the younger demos of this segment to make up for it.

And to say KROQ beat Indie in Santa Monica or other areas is a little misleading because Indie's target audience and KROQ's target audience were not the same.

On everything that Arbitron measures, the target was substantially the same.

I am not claiming Indie had a bunch of brain surgeons for an audience. I am saying that analyzing numbers/geography/intelligent audience is a difficult taks at best as most of the Indie audience was never going to answer the call from a survey company.

Non participants tend to be a lifestyle, not a socioeconomic level. In every group, some participate, some do not. Whether there is a different radio listening pattern in participants and non-participants is irrelevant... radio advertisers need a metric, and ratings are good enough... even the diary.

There was a constant chasm as to what to do with programming. Two PD's in the life of Indie with very different ideas. Play the edgy off the beaten track and hard to find stuff? Play the new cutting edge stuff mixed with "hits" from the past? Play the obscure that all of 30 people in LA will know? Indie never had the ratings analysis to answer the question because the heart of its audience was not portrayed in the ratings.

Ratings are not the answer to this kind of question. Ratings are the result. Perceptual research and music tests are what Indie needed, and did not do. Few stations with bad ratings are successful, so the "report card" from Arbitron sealed the station fate.

 

[davideduardo]

I also think to say that KROQ beat Indie even in Santa Monica and West L.A. is still not valid. The full market signals are just better known than the Class As. They have more of an image, so listeners are more aware of those stations.

KBUE and KRCD are Class A multicasts, and are often in the top 10 stations 12+ and 18-49, so the fact that Indie was a pair of A's did not necessarily condemn it to failure... its new format is doing better than quite a few bigger signals.

 

[radiojomo]

David's true. KDLD is doing better than KXOS in the 12+ overall and KXOS is operating on a Class B.

 

[RBB05]

Like I said, I repsect that I am new here so I will just add a few comments and then sit down and shut up.

Not once did anyone at Indie ask themsleves how to compete with KROQ because they new that was not the goal, nor was it achievable. Indie got blocked out of rleationships with several bands by KROQ, but that was a KROQ issue with Indie, not the other way around.

Lifestyle versus socioeconomic??????? Socioeconomics CREATE lifestyle. They are interlinked.

Hispanics have always responded better to survey calls that upper income whites. Drops in Hispanic station numbers on PPM versus diary is that the PPMs do not allow Hispanics to draw straight lines representing a false 7 hours of TSL to one station the way the diaries did.

I agree that Indie needed music tests and perceptual studies. It was flying by the seat of its pants too much and going on hunches. EVC has a poor track record of paying for such things.

 

[radiojomo]

I think I'm a little too late on this, but has anyone heard this interview with Jeff Liberman, the president of Entravision?
http://www.rbr.com/features/interviews/14885.html
Liberman says that Indie is doing great online and its a very successful move...

 

[musicfan101]

I think I'm a little too late on this, but has anyone heard this interview with Jeff Liberman, the president of Entravision?
http://www.rbr.com/features/interviews/14885.html
Liberman says that Indie is doing great online and its a very successful move...

How would he know? Entravision isn't pumping ANY money into the online stream - which explains all the ads you hear. It seems EVC has forgotten about Indie long ago...

 

[radiojomo]

This interview twists around most thing people are saying on these boards. He says Indie is doing great online, revenue for the station is improving month by month, more people are listening to Indie online than on the terrestrial signal, the reason Indie left was because of the PPM and how listeners did not carry around PPM, Indie is NOT on the HD 2 signal because the hosts of the show want to do whatever the want and not have the FCC on their backs and Indie wants to re-sign Steve Jones. He sounds re-assuring as well.