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HD radio mistakenly labled High Definition on CSpan2 Intervue Toninght at 8PM

Chuck said:
R.F. Burns said:
"Admit it, Analogue does sound better than digital."

The entire world disagrees with you. Other than that you might be right.

I don't know. Have you ever listened to a 2" analog tape running at 30 IPS? Maybe through a set of McIntosh powered Westlake Studio Monitors? Or maybe some Meyer Studio Monitors?

It can sound REALY GOOD. Of course, I'm not talking consumer stuff here. For most of us, the CD is an amazingly good sounding device

Chuck,

I play the piano and I live in a high humidity location so I got rid of my acoustic piano due to the cost of piano tuning, so I got a digital console piano and though it sounds very good, it could never match the sound quality of an acoustic piano, now I've been playing piano since I was 4 years old so I would know a good sound, the digital sampling on the piano rivals that of high quality CD players.. I don't have the specs here since I'm down in Florida today.. when I get home I'll post it compared to a high quality cd player...

So like you say though the CD does sound good... the sampling rate of the CD player could never match the true analog sound because bit's and pieces are missing in the CD digital recording and playback....

Radiopilot
 
Well that proves nothing Radiopilot. Your digital piano is playing RECORDINGS of a "real" piano...digital samples. Recordings are never perfect. They never sound just like the original. What we're talking about is one RECORDING (or broadcasting) technology vs. another. I guarantee your digital piano sounds better than if each note was on hissy analog tape!

2" 30ips reel to reel tape can sound very good. But listen carefully to the deep bass. Most reel to reel recorders begin to roll off below 50hz, and have "head bumps"...ripples in frequency response at low bass frequencies when the tape is run that fast. Digital is flat to dc. That's right...you can actually record DC! Bass doesn't get deeper than that!

One of the reaons analog sometimes sounds "richer" is that the waveforms played back are actually more complex. Phase relationships are scrambled randomly, wow and flutter makes one steady tone at a fixed frequency waver all over the place. Resonance in tonearms/cartridges/etc. adds to the harmonic information on the record. All of it can make things sound mroe "organic", "richer", because it does make for a more complex, harmonic-rich waveform. But it AIN'T accurate. It is NOT what was originally played. Euphonic or not, distortion is distortion.
 
Mike Walker said:
Well that proves nothing Radiopilot. Your digital piano is playing RECORDINGS of a "real" piano...digital samples. Recordings are never perfect. They never sound just like the original. What we're talking about is one RECORDING (or broadcasting) technology vs. another. I guarantee your digital piano sounds better than if each note was on hissy analog tape!

2" 30ips reel to reel tape can sound very good. But listen carefully to the deep bass. Most reel to reel recorders begin to roll off below 50hz, and have "head bumps"...ripples in frequency response at low bass frequencies when the tape is run that fast. Digital is flat to dc. That's right...you can actually record DC! Bass doesn't get deeper than that!

One of the reaons analog sometimes sounds "richer" is that the waveforms played back are actually more complex. Phase relationships are scrambled randomly, wow and flutter makes one steady tone at a fixed frequency waver all over the place. Resonance in tonearms/cartridges/etc. adds to the harmonic information on the record. All of it can make things sound mroe "organic", "richer", because it does make for a more complex, harmonic-rich waveform. But it AIN'T accurate. It is NOT what was originally played. Euphonic or not, distortion is distortion.

The piano is playing back a sampled digital note... this is what CD's do... nothing more or less... the sound coming out of an HD broadcast on an HD radio would be doing just that... so if the CD is not true to the original sound neither is the HD broadcast!

The reason like you say analog has it's richness is those harmonics and complex waveforms... you would be content to have nothing but digital instruments on stage performing digital music and recorded on digital equipment being broadcast over digital radio and that would be one nice world to you?

Sorry but that isn't the world I want to be in and any musician will tell you differently... While a CD recording may be convienient and have some sound atributes it will never beat analog!

Radiopilot
 
I don't just "claim" to have worked in radio my entire life, RaidoPilot. My resume' is posted below, and I can offer names if you'd like to verify any of it.

No I don't believe audio "sucked" prior to digital. I don't think my lps "suck" now. But there's no going back. Today's analog tuners are no better than those in the 70s, in fact in many ways they're worse. And NOBODY is researching new techniques to improve analog audio. There's no financial incentive to do that. Analog audio isn't going away completely...there's too much of it (lps, reels, etc). But it's not getting any better. In fact, it's getting worse. I've said before that audio quality is (imho) much worse now than 20 or 30 years ago. And I don't believe that will change...not without new technology. Even with the new technology, sound quality won't be "in the drivers seat". It'll be the extra programming provided by HD2 and HD3 streams. Sadly, sound quality doesn't sell. Want proof? Where are the 18-25 year old audiophiles? They were EVERYWHERE when you and I were young. Today's young person spends money on computers and Ipods, not anythig which would qualify as "high-end audio". Better audio will be a side benefit of HD. But without multicasting, I think it would be a very hard sell.

Here's my resume'
1998-present Owner/Operator "The Production Room
1998-2002 Air Personality WXRC Charlotte NC
1998-2002 Production/voiceover/copywriting WIRC Hickory NC/WNNC Newton NC
2001-2003 Air Personality WINQ Winchendon Mass
1999-2000 Production/Voiceover/Copywriting WGDN Gladwyn Mich.
1998-2000 Air Personality WKSK West Jefferson NC
2001-present Production Mgr. WKBC AM/FM North Wilkesboro NC
1998-1990 Operations Mgr/Program Director WIFM AM/FM Elkin NC
1990-1988 Morning Personality/Production Mgr WFMX FM/WSIC AM Statesville NC
1988-1984 Morning Personality WWWC Wilkesboro NC
1984-1980 Afternoon Personality/Asst Program Director WNNC Newton NC
1980-1977 Air Personality WKBC AM/FM North Wilkesboro NC
1977-1974 Air Personality/Salesperson WIFM AM/FM Elkin NC
 
Re: HD radio mistakenly labled High Definition on CSpan2 Intervue Toninght at 8P

Mike Walker said:
People who have no ties to broadcast radio have criticisms of it. Shock! Horror!

Radio's future will be decided by PEOPLE IN RADIO. We've done pretty damn good so far...eight decades and counting.

Radio's future will be driven by the marketplace and their acceptance of HD.
 
radiopilot said:
I play the piano and I live in a high humidity location so I got rid of my acoustic piano due to the cost of piano tuning, so I got a digital console piano and though it sounds very good, it could never match the sound quality of an acoustic piano, now I've been playing piano since I was 4 years old so I would know a good sound, the digital sampling on the piano rivals that of high quality CD players.. I don't have the specs here since I'm down in Florida today.. when I get home I'll post it compared to a high quality cd player...

You don't need to post it for my benefit. There is a good reason why Bosendorfer and Steinway pianos are cherished. Nothing sounds quite like them.

Digital samples are convenient, and many folks simply don't know the difference. I still prefer analog, but I am a realist and there are many advantages to doing things in a digital domain. I’ts not all bad…
 
Chuck said:
R.F. Burns said:
"Admit it, Analogue does sound better than digital."

The entire world disagrees with you. Other than that you might be right.

I don't know. Have you ever listened to a 2" analog tape running at 30 IPS? Maybe through a set of McIntosh powered Westlake Studio Monitors? Or maybe some Meyer Studio Monitors?

It can sound REALY GOOD. Of course, I'm not talking consumer stuff here. For most of us, the CD is an amazingly good sounding device

Heard it? I've used Studers which record at 30 IPS. I own an MCI and an Ampex 350, both of which do 15 IPS. I've done multi track work using an 8 track Otari and my amplifier is a Mac. As good as it sounds, it's not as quiet and doesn't have the dynamic range capabilities of either of my Tascam Dat machines. The analog equipment adds a certain something to the music and part of it is hiss. EVen at 15 IPS I can hear hiss using analog tape. There is none on my digital equipment. My turntable is a Denon DP 60L with a Sumiko moving coil cartridge (I used to use audioquest cartridges ion the 90's) and even with audiofile vinyl the noise floor is far higher than my Rotel 965BX Limited Edition CD player.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220108795207&ih=012&category=3272&rd=1
 
Chuck said:
radiopilot said:
I play the piano and I live in a high humidity location so I got rid of my acoustic piano due to the cost of piano tuning, so I got a digital console piano and though it sounds very good, it could never match the sound quality of an acoustic piano, now I've been playing piano since I was 4 years old so I would know a good sound, the digital sampling on the piano rivals that of high quality CD players.. I don't have the specs here since I'm down in Florida today.. when I get home I'll post it compared to a high quality cd player...

You don't need to post it for my benefit. There is a good reason why Bosendorfer and Steinway pianos are cherished. Nothing sounds quite like them.

Digital samples are convenient, and many folks simply don't know the difference. I still prefer analog, but I am a realist and there are many advantages to doing things in a digital domain. I’ts not all bad…

Pianos like speakers are acoustic devices. Electronics are not. You can't compare the two.
 
Re: HD radio mistakenly labled High Definition on CSpan2 Intervue Toninght at 8P

Mike Walker said:
Audiophies frequently claim to "hear more ambience" on analog recordings. DUH! Due to dynamic range limitations, analog recordings are compressed to keep audio above the noise level, then limited to keep peaks below the level of audible distortion. You hear more ambience because IT'S RECORDED AT A HIGHER LEVEL TO OVERCOME NOISE!

Hold it. Digital is the medium with an absolute ceiling. If anything, digital recordings suffer more from poorly produced audio than any analog recording. Have you seen modern audio recordings when you open them up in any editing program? Alot of this is due to digital processing which I am not a huge fan of. I also don't appreciate the "remastering" of audio that is being done to classic recordings. Recently a Motown boxset was reissued and the audio was "remastered"... meaning it was square waved and looked and sounded like it had already been played on the air. This is part of what digital has done.

Analog does have a ceiling, but it is not absolute, it depends on the design of the electronics. Also, the device that captures the audio... the microphone.. is analog... and the human ear is analog. So there is nothing that is end to end digital. And with analog, the gentle limiting of an 1176LN or a Lang PEQ-2 sounds 1000 times better than any "mastering" processor to flavor a recording.

That being said, there is no way a cassette deck from 1978 can sound anything like a well mastered CD, if the CD is mastered from a digital or analog source. I would always choose linear digital audio for my source material for on-air playback. No matter what the end result is (FM analog, HD, internet), it will always sound better if the source is clean.
 
The fact of the matter is, as good as analog can be, it usually does not live up to its capabilities. Worse yet, it degrades in quality with every generation. Most people don’t have 30 IPS Studer tape decks hanging around their house. A CD sure beats a Cassette, and it will beat all but the very finest of vinyl on a very expensive playback system. The CD will probably last a lot longer than the disk as well. Add to that the sheer convenience of it, and there really isn’t any argument.

Digital audio has brought the ability to make high quality recordings to just about anyone who cares to do so. Further, you can do it on very reasonably priced equipment that most people can easily afford. Editing is so much easier in the digital domain. It sure beats a razor blade and a splicing block. Anyone who has crawled all over the studio floor looking for that little piece of tape that they shouldn’t have cut out knows what I mean. Once you edit digitally, you’d never have any desire to go back to your analog ways.

Doing quality work in the analog domain requires much more skill, patience and time. I can do stuff with a digital workstation is just a few minutes that would have taken all day in a well equipped studio to pull off, just a few years ago. It’s kind of like the argument of film versus digital photography. I hope the basic art form never goes away, but I also know for my purposes digital does what I need to do, cheaply and quickly. It is a digital world we live in. Might as well enjoy it.
 
Chuck said:
The fact of the matter is, as good as analog can be, it usually does not live up to its capabilities. Worse yet, it degrades in quality with every generation. Most people don’t have 30 IPS Studer tape decks hanging around their house. A CD sure beats a Cassette, and it will beat all but the very finest of vinyl on a very expensive playback system. The CD will probably last a lot longer than the disk as well. Add to that the sheer convenience of it, and there really isn’t any argument.

Digital audio has brought the ability to make high quality recordings to just about anyone who cares to do so. Further, you can do it on very reasonably priced equipment that most people can easily afford. Editing is so much easier in the digital domain. It sure beats a razor blade and a splicing block. Anyone who has crawled all over the studio floor looking for that little piece of tape that they shouldn’t have cut out knows what I mean. Once you edit digitally, you’d never have any desire to go back to your analog ways.

Doing quality work in the analog domain requires much more skill, patience and time. I can do stuff with a digital workstation is just a few minutes that would have taken all day in a well equipped studio to pull off, just a few years ago. It’s kind of like the argument of film versus digital photography. I hope the basic art form never goes away, but I also know for my purposes digital does what I need to do, cheaply and quickly. It is a digital world we live in. Might as well enjoy it.

I am very happy with the results I get recording to CDs. I still hold that as frequency response is concerned, the
1978 JVC KD-85 cassette upper end exceeds that of the Denon CDR 20. The Akai X-165D reel to reel surpasses them both at 7.5 ips.

All can provide very clean results. I agree with all the points being made that digital is easier for most people.
But unless digital is using enough samples to make the mode transparent to 40 khz or so, with sufficient storage,
transferring to digital is another degradation, just as with any other recording mode.

I have a 3.2 megapixel digital camera which is "OK", but I prefer the results from my 1960 Crown Graphic 4 x 5 inch sheet press camera,
where the resolution of such a large negative far surpasses in ability to record fine detail and gradation.

The convenience of digital can never do what I learned to make silver-based photography do.

I do not like to see standards dropped for convenience, expediency, laziness, or "having a hard time finding good people".
Especially now that the result is audible so many places on the dial.
 
Re: HD radio mistakenly labled High Definition on CSpan2 Intervue Toninght at 8P

Then you have this

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117963533.html?categoryid=1019&cs=1

There is no doubt that both digital and analog have its benefits, but to hear Struble say that they're moving radio into digital just so it's a digital medium, I have a problem with that. Again, it's the obsession of digital for the sake of digital instead of a more rational approach that places radio content over many forms of digital mediums and leaves analog AM and FM to do what it does best, finish out with those listeners who choose to use the legacy receivers to listen.
 
Tom is apparently under the impression that a cassette deck, ANY cassette deck ever made, has response to 40khz, or that this even matters. Hmmmm.
 
WGIL Radio is right that digital "suffers from an absolute ceiling". Analog's ceiling is more of a moving target. How much distortion can you tolerate on THIS type of music vs. another? Hell, analog distortion sometimes becomes PART OF THE MUSIC! Ever listened to 'Bohemian Rhapsody' by Queen through headphones? Talk about "slamming the tape"! With vinyl, it's a little different...a matter of how well can the stylus track extreme groove modulation. A Shure V15 series would undoubtedly do better than RF's moving coil (at extremely hot tracking), but at a more sane level, almost certainly wouldn't sound as good.

Digital was thought for the first few years to have an "absolute floor"...that nothing below -96db could be recorded. The problem was that when sound dipped below -96db, the d/a converter simply cut off. There were no more bits to "describe" the signal. Then it was learned that with "dither"...low level noise hovering just above the cutoff, keeping the lsb (least significant bit) from ever "toggling off". Guess what? It turns out that with dither, it's actually possible to record sound BELOW -96db! 16 bit recorders WITH DITHER can exceed 16 bit resolution!

We've now had more than three decades of experience with digital audio, and have learned A LOT. RF spoke of dat recorders. Sony's "Super Bit Mapping" does an amazing job of extending (downward) the dynamic range of 16 bit media like dat or cd. When I first got my DTC-A6 back in the mid-90s, I recorded a few minutes of silence with SBM switched off, then with it switched on. I then risked my speaker's very lives by turning up the volume until I could hear the background noise. When SBM was switched in, the ragged digital noise just fell away into a velvety silence. Some AMAZING things have been done to extend the performance of digital, and they (audio engineers) ain't done yet. Digital keeps getting better in ways that analog, sadly, stopped advancing some time ago (the exception being incredibly expensive items like multi-thousand-dollar turntables that no doubt sound great, but sell in the dozens IF THEY'RE LUCKY. Not a serious competitor!).

Anyone who's ever recorded a steady tone into a reel to reel recorder, even a superb one, and listened to the output, or watched it on a meter, then done the same with digital, quickly gets the point that one of them is solid as a rock, and the other wavers all over the place..with levels jumping up and down wildly, and speed fluctuatiing quite audibly. And this is with ONE TONE, at ONE FREQUENCY. Hell, you don't need to measure the harmonic distortion, YOU CAN HEAR IT! That sharp, distinct sine wave has now become diffuse and "harmonic". Obviously with something more complex, like music, the situation gets quite a bit worse.

Record 10, 20, or 40 distinct tones simultaneously on your digital recorder, and look at the results on a scope. There they are...distinct peaks at each of the exact frequencies of the original. Record them on an analog recorder, and do the same. Watch the peaks rise and fall randomly. Now count them. Wait...there are not just the big peaks fluctuating in frequency and amplitude, but what's with all those little peaks that are coming and gong at various frequencies? It's a freaking MESS! You think it sounds good? Fine. Use analog. But don't freakin' try to convince me it's "more accurate". It's so damn easy to demonstrate that it just ain't.
 
Mike Walker said:
WGIL Radio is right that digital "suffers from an absolute ceiling". Analog's ceiling is more of a moving target. How much distortion can you tolerate on THIS type of music vs. another? Hell, analog distortion sometimes becomes PART OF THE MUSIC! Ever listened to 'Bohemian Rhapsody' by Queen through headphones? Talk about "slamming the tape"! With vinyl, it's a little different...a matter of how well can the stylus track extreme groove modulation. A Shure V15 series would undoubtedly do better than RF's moving coil (at extremely hot tracking), but at a more sane level, almost certainly wouldn't sound as good.

Digital was thought for the first few years to have an "absolute floor"...that nothing below -96db could be recorded. The problem was that when sound dipped below -96db, the d/a converter simply cut off. There were no more bits to "describe" the signal. Then it was learned that with "dither"...low level noise hovering just above the cutoff, keeping the lsb (least significant bit) from ever "toggling off". Guess what? It turns out that with dither, it's actually possible to record sound BELOW -96db! 16 bit recorders WITH DITHER can exceed 16 bit resolution!

We've now had more than three decades of experience with digital audio, and have learned A LOT. RF spoke of dat recorders. Sony's "Super Bit Mapping" does an amazing job of extending (downward) the dynamic range of 16 bit media like dat or cd. When I first got my DTC-A6 back in the mid-90s, I recorded a few minutes of silence with SBM switched off, then with it switched on. I then risked my speaker's very lives by turning up the volume until I could hear the background noise. When SBM was switched in, the ragged digital noise just fell away into a velvety silence. Some AMAZING things have been done to extend the performance of digital, and they (audio engineers) ain't done yet. Digital keeps getting better in ways that analog, sadly, stopped advancing some time ago (the exception being incredibly expensive items like multi-thousand-dollar turntables that no doubt sound great, but sell in the dozens IF THEY'RE LUCKY. Not a serious competitor!).

Anyone who's ever recorded a steady tone into a reel to reel recorder, even a superb one, and listened to the output, or watched it on a meter, then done the same with digital, quickly gets the point that one of them is solid as a rock, and the other wavers all over the place..with levels jumping up and down wildly, and speed fluctuatiing quite audibly. And this is with ONE TONE, at ONE FREQUENCY. Hell, you don't need to measure the harmonic distortion, YOU CAN HEAR IT! That sharp, distinct sine wave has now become diffuse and "harmonic". Obviously with something more complex, like music, the situation gets quite a bit worse.

Record 10, 20, or 40 distinct tones simultaneously on your digital recorder, and look at the results on a scope. There they are...distinct peaks at each of the exact frequencies of the original. Record them on an analog recorder, and do the same. Watch the peaks rise and fall randomly. Now count them. Wait...there are not just the big peaks fluctuating in frequency and amplitude, but what's with all those little peaks that are coming and gong at various frequencies? It's a freaking MESS! You think it sounds good? Fine. Use analog. But don't freakin' try to convince me it's "more accurate". It's so damn easy to demonstrate that it just ain't.

I own a Sony KA3ES cassette deck

http://www.happymedium.com/sonyka3.htm

It's a fine machine but it can't compare with my Tascam DA-40. Remember things like noise reduction to lower the level of his due to the slow 1 7/8 ips speed. Actually my next recorder won't use tape. I think I will buy a CD-R stand alone recorder because the portablility of the CD-R makes it a better choice then one of the current portable hard drive recorders. I just bought Sound Forge 9 but am still using SF 6 to do my editing for now. I used to edit tape professionally, engineering a weekly national music countdown show and far and away the best machines for that was the MCI. The reason being that they used the same path spacing as the old Ampex 350. Using an EdiTall block you didn't even need to mark the tape with a china marker to make some edits. I never used a china marker with the old Ampex 351's we used. You'd mark the tape at the edge of the head cover with your tumb and place the mark at the 180 degree mark (Straight line) on the block and cut the tape at the angled mark. That was the same distance as the space between the record and playback head. I edited audio tape for over 20 years. Today try to find 1/4 inch analog tape on 10" reels.
 
Have you considered solid state for your next recorder, RF? Very portable, no moving parts, and relatively inexpensive flash cards can not only hold more data than cds, but you can burn the data to cd or dvd once you get back, then reuse the card. Just a thought ;)
 
Mike Walker said:
Tom is apparently under the impression that a cassette deck, ANY cassette deck ever made, has response to 40khz, or that this even matters. Hmmmm.

Now, of course you're being obtuse here. I specified which deck. Shall I list my 4 decks which do NOT exceed in frequency response?
Shall I list which tape types had sufficient resolution?
And it is not necessary to oversample by 2X in analog, as the resolution is continuous.

As tape heads wear, the gap depth becomes ever more shallow, increasing frequency response until one day, the gap depth is gone, and the gap iself begins to widen, then high-end response falls off.
Perhaps my JVC cassette deck is in this last phase. I replaced the worn out capstan drive motor this year.
I have no spec sheet on this JVC KD-85. Perhaps some kind soul can tell us the mfr specs for frequency response.
I do remember that many high-end decks were about to record above 20 khz.
 
If you're under the impression that "sampling 2x" has anything to do with resolution Tom, then you really need to check on your terminology. What you're (I think!) referring to is FREQUENCY RESPONSE, completely unrelated to "resolution". Resolution is determined by bit DEPTH, not sampling frequency.

Even Nakamichis, which could reach 20khz AT-20DB, would do very well to reach 12khz at 0DB. Self erasure makes high level response to 20khz impossible on cassette, let alone 40khz! You say earlier that high resolution requires 40khz response, then mention your 1978 cassette deck as being an example of "high resolution recording". Not an open reel at 30ips, but a CASSETTE DECK at 1 7/8ips. Hell, if you'd mentioned open reel, I would have had to grant that it DOES have superior frequency extension (at 30ips 40khz is actually possible), and even equal "resolution" as "digital-like" dynamic range is possible with Dolby SR. But NO, your're talking about a 30 year old cassette deck using Dolby B! Not even HX pro to allow a bit more high frequency extension at high levels before saturation. And you believe you're making a serious argument?
 
I'd make you a deal Tom, but I'd need to check with my wife first. Record a 40khz tone onto your 30 year old cassette deck. If 40khz comes out the other end, I'd almost sign over the deed to my house. Hell, my wife won't go for it, but if I were single...
 
Mike: Everything at home is linear and all of it is on harddrives. Three computers, each with 500GB of storage right now, plus five backup drives in safe boxes. I still have airchecks and tapes as the "masters" of stuff recorded in the "good old days", but anything I have wanted to really keep has been transferred over.

I do own one cassette deck, one Otari deck and one BE stereo cart machine. That is as far as I go with analog tape. In this case, proper transfer of analog to digital and proper backup of that digital is appropriate use of digital in this case IMHO.
 
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