HD radio mistakenly labled High Definition on CSpan2 Intervue Toninght at 8PM

[Mike Walker]

I've had a great 1980s vintage Pioneer reel to reel that I GAVE to a local gospel station. I have a Sony dat recorder with "very low mileage", because not long after I bought it, cheap hard drive storage and cd burners made it instantly obsolete. When I first started my production business, I planned to delivery my work to stations on metal cassettes, using Dolby S. The quality was superb. But that (very nice three head) deck sits unused, with almost no miles. I invested in minidisc, because a few of my stations preferred them. But the advent of e-mail attachments and high quality compressed audio made delivering physical media unnecessary. That's a ton of cash for a little studio, invested in DEAD OR DYING FORMATS! YIKES!

 

[R.F. Burns]

Have you considered solid state for your next recorder, RF? Very portable, no moving parts, and relatively inexpensive flash cards can not only hold more data than cds, but you can burn the data to cd or dvd once you get back, then reuse the card. Just a thought

What I use my Dats for is to record live radio plays. The advantage of the CD-R is that I can upload the material to my hard drive faster then real time and while a static drive might hold the material, it isn't quite as portable as the CD-R. I can play a CD-R in most any machine but for the static drive I'd either need to carry the player or buy an external reader, if the memory itself is portable. I just wish either device had confidence monitoring capability.

 

[Mike Walker]

A good point (about confidence monitoring), RF. Now THERE'S a real reason to choose analog tape!

 

[R.F. Burns]

A good point (about confidence monitoring), RF. Now THERE'S a real reason to choose analog tape!

We have dat machines with confidence monitoring as well. Machines such as the old Panasonic SV3900 or the Sony PCM 7010 or 7030 Dat machines all have confidence monitors. That's the advantage of tape. The disadvantage of digital is head wear and alignment.

 

[Chuck]

A good point (about confidence monitoring), RF. Now THERE'S a real reason to choose analog tape!

We have dat machines with confidence monitoring as well. Machines such as the old Panasonic SV3900 or the Sony PCM 7010 or 7030 Dat machines all have confidence monitors. That's the advantage of tape. The disadvantage of digital is head wear and alignment.

The real disadvantage to DAT machines is the transport. I had a fleet of SV3900's in rental service when I owned my audio company in Dallas. Every now and then, one of the decks would eat somebody's tape. Talk about "unhappy customers..." Of course Panasonic wanted a fortune to repair the decks too. DAT makes redundant hard drives or removable memory cards look very attractive. In fact, I bought a 2 GB thumb drive the other day for $19.95. You can record to those if you like and take your work with you. It sure holds a lot more audio than a 10" reel of tape, and it is a lot easier to carry.

Pretty cool stuff, actually....

 

[R.F. Burns]

A good point (about confidence monitoring), RF. Now THERE'S a real reason to choose analog tape!

We have dat machines with confidence monitoring as well. Machines such as the old Panasonic SV3900 or the Sony PCM 7010 or 7030 Dat machines all have confidence monitors. That's the advantage of tape. The disadvantage of digital is head wear and alignment.

The real disadvantage to DAT machines is the transport. I had a fleet of SV3900's in rental service when I owned my audio company in Dallas. Every now and then, one of the decks would eat somebody's tape. Talk about "unhappy customers..." Of course Panasonic wanted a fortune to repair the decks too. DAT makes redundant hard drives or removable memory cards look very attractive. In fact, I bought a 2 GB thumb drive the other day for $19.95. You can record to those if you like and take your work with you. It sure holds a lot more audio than a 10" reel of tape, and it is a lot easier to carry.

Pretty cool stuff, actually....

We've been using 9300's (we have 6 in master control alone as well as another 6 made up of 3800's and 4100's). Each studio (we have 16 plus news facilities) has at least one or 2 dat machines, so we're a pretty big operation. The transports of each of the Panasonics is interchangeable and we have do our own maintanence. The problem with the Panasonics is lack of parts availability. They no longer support their Dat machines and we've moved to digital storage networks here. I my work area we have 14 ISDN's and 7 different pots line extension units (Matrix, Access, Scoop, etc) I will say that we are unusual with 60 plus channels of simultainious audio being broadcast for affiliate use.

 

[Tom Wells]

Mike,
Don't try so hard to mis-understand. Forget I said 2x. I'll say it another way. In order to measure a sine wave accurately, it is necessary to measure more than twice per cycle. Measuring 4 times per cycle on a 20 khz wave would require an 80khz sample rate.
And 4 points per cycle does not tell us very much about the true nature of the shape of the wave.

Analog has continuous measurement,.
Resolution defines "highest frequency", Gradation defines how many "levels" can be described.

And digital response is absolutely defined by register size, etc. Analog has its own limitations.

 

[Mike Walker]

That's exactly opposite. REGISTER SIZE (number of steps...just over 64,000 for 16 bit audio) determines RESOLUTION. Sample rate determines frequency response. And two samples per cycle are ALL THAT ARE REQUIRED to COMPLETELY represent a sine wave, as demonstrated many times since the earliest days of digital audio, and described by the Nyquist Theorem http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/nyquist.htm

This screen capture shows a 20khz tone generated in Adobe Audition at 44.1khz. Note the "dots" showing where the samples lie, but Audition filled in the actual recovered waveform upon playback, just as the d/a converter in your soundcard, or cd player would do. Note: a perfect sine wave. http://www.theproductionroom.net/20khz.jpg

 

[awj223]

Re: HD radio mistakenly labled High Definition on CSpan2 Intervue Toninght at 8P

I am very happy with the results I get recording to CDs. I still hold that as frequency response is concerned, the
1978 JVC KD-85 cassette upper end exceeds that of the Denon CDR 20. The Akai X-165D reel to reel surpasses them both at 7.5 ips.

All can provide very clean results. I agree with all the points being made that digital is easier for most people.
But unless digital is using enough samples to make the mode transparent to 40 khz or so, with sufficient storage,
transferring to digital is another degradation, just as with any other recording mode.

I have a 3.2 megapixel digital camera which is "OK", but I prefer the results from my 1960 Crown Graphic 4 x 5 inch sheet press camera,
where the resolution of such a large negative far surpasses in ability to record fine detail and gradation.

The convenience of digital can never do what I learned to make silver-based photography do.

I do not like to see standards dropped for convenience, expediency, laziness, or "having a hard time finding good people".
Especially now that the result is audible so many places on the dial.

Every example you give is one where you compare a very good analog system to a digital system that was not designed to produce the best quality. The camera was designed to produce images that can fit on your CF card without having to change the card out every 10 shots. There's always a tradeoff between quality and storage size/bandwidth and you're not making the fair comparison.

With digital, you can always use a high enough sampling rate/megapixel photo/etc. that it will be indistinguishable from your top of the line analog system. There are lossless compression techniques that will allow you to get the full quality back when you reproduce the content. Compare your traditional film camera to one of the 10-12 megapixel cameras, but be prepared to deal with image sizes in excess of 10MB per photo. If your concern is getting the highest quality, then get one of these cameras. Don't bother with the 3 megapixel toys.

I don't care how good an analog system is, any digital system with indistinguishable quality is inherently better. Can you make me a copy of one of your outstanding photos so that I can make someone else a copy from that copy and still have it be as good as the original? Didn't think so.

The sad thing is that digital could be an opportunity to clean up radio, especially AM, but Ibiquity repeated the sin of the original (analog) system by using more bandwidth per channel than the channel spacing! If they intended for each station to use 12-15 kHz of spectrum, double sideband, they should have spaced the channels 30 kHz apart. Any digital mediumwave system should put all of the subcarriers within 8-9 kHz of the carrier. I would have the signal down to something like -30 dBc at 9 kHz, -60 dBc at 10 kHz, and -90 dBc at 11 kHz, effectively creating a 1-2 kHz guard band, so that picking up first adjacents to strong stations no longer poses a problem. Even full digital IBOC fails to do this, and still splatters secondary and tertiary subcarriers on neighboring channels.

 

[Mike Walker]

The world is digital. The standard for terrestrial digital radio is HD. CAN WE JUST MOVE ON, accept the ruling, and MAKE IT WORK!

We didn't get a great FM stereo system, either. That didn't keep us from enjoying it for FORTY YEARS, and making many improvements (Carver's "Asymmetrical Charge Coupled Decoding"...a senseless name for an astoundingly good device, and Shotz noise reduction circuits among them). There are no unsolvable problems with HD!!! The hard ones...squeezing digital radio into the same freakin' space as analog...are behind us. Let's make it better!

 

[PocketRadio]

The world is digital. The standard for terrestrial digital radio is HD. CAN WE JUST MOVE ON, accept the ruling, and MAKE IT WORK!

We didn't get a great FM stereo system, either. That didn't keep us from enjoying it for FORTY YEARS, and making many improvements (Carver's "Asymmetrical Charge Coupled Decoding"...a senseless name for an astoundingly good device, and Shotz noise reduction circuits among them). There are no unsolvable problems with HD!!! The hard ones...squeezing digital radio into the same freakin' space as analog...are behind us. Let's make it better!

awj223 is correct, in that HD Radio is A standard, along with FMeXtra and AM Stereo, not THE standard for terrestrial radio - FMeXtra and AM Stereo have stalled, just as HD/IBOC will do. DAB has stalled in Canada, and DAB in the UK is having the same reception problems, as HD/IBOC - I suspect, the move to digital radio will fail, because of poor coverage and consumer apathy.

 

[Mike Walker]

This thing about "the shape of the wave" has my mind racing. Are you forgetting that for a 20khz waveform to be any shape OTHER than a sine wave requires frequency response WAY beyond 20khz, because the components which would define additional characteristics or "shape" would, by their nature, be higher than 20khz.

Again refer to the Nyquist theorem, which states that ANY waveform can be created with a collection of harmonically related sine waves at various frequencies.

 

[awj223]

Re: HD radio mistakenly labled High Definition on CSpan2 Intervue Toninght at 8P

The hard ones...squeezing digital radio into the same freakin' space as analog...are behind us.

That's an easy one to solve: GET RID OF THE ANALOG! Unfortunately it's the only one that the FCC has so far failed to solve. Once analog is dead, digital can easily operate in that space. The current system of hashing up adjacent analog channels by generating noise far worse than the worst case scenario imagined by those who designed an emission mask for an all ANALOG sytem...works to some extent, but I wouldn't even come close to calling it a "solution".

 

[Mike Walker]

The FCC report actually describes it as "the standard", and states that no others will be considered (FM Extra being an exception BECAUSE it is an SCA technology, and doesn't compete with, or interfere...but there's no commercial support for it, and no installed base of stations). The most "out there" thing that conceivably would happen, and one I hope does for the sake of small stations, is that combo radios that receive HD, AND FMExtra will be marketed. Not so far-fetched...just look at the new Onkyo...just a couple of formats away from playing EVERYTHING!

 

[Chuck]

We've been using 9300's (we have 6 in master control alone as well as another 6 made up of 3800's and 4100's). Each studio (we have 16 plus news facilities) has at least one or 2 dat machines, so we're a pretty big operation. The transports of each of the Panasonics is interchangeable and we have do our own maintanence. The problem with the Panasonics is lack of parts availability. They no longer support their Dat machines and we've moved to digital storage networks here. I my work area we have 14 ISDN's and 7 different pots line extension units (Matrix, Access, Scoop, etc) I will say that we are unusual with 60 plus channels of simultainious audio being broadcast for affiliate use.

I think the key words here are "we do our own maintanence." With that many machines, you need an in house guru who loves and understands them. They can deliver outstanding results. I was in the pro-audio rental business for many years. Some of our customers were true professionals who treated our equipment as if it were their own. Then there was the 90% we'll call "The other guys." Many of them wouldn't have a clue if you handed it to them....

I have many horror stories about what people did to our equipment. Some are actually funny. Some are not.

 

[Tom Wells]

This thing about "the shape of the wave" has my mind racing. Are you forgetting that for a 20khz waveform to be any shape OTHER than a sine wave requires frequency response WAY beyond 20khz, because the components which would define additional characteristics or "shape" would, by their nature, be higher than 20khz.

Again refer to the Nyquist theorem, which states that ANY waveform can be created with a collection of harmonically related sine waves at various frequencies.

Yes, Mike. This IS correct, as you have stated. The components are indeed well above audio, and this is why good analog design for audio amps design for passbands to permit this as much as possible, with inevitable limiting factors.

The recording bias applied in recorders is way-way-above audio. If it fails, there is no signal impressed to the tape.
Why does this "carrier" need to be there? Why was this bias frequency run ever higher as decks developed?

This is also why early cheap transistor amps were bright but had bad phase distortion with the inverse feedback. They mutilated the proper
phase relationship as frequencies increased.

The Nyquist theorem again, presupposes sine wave reproduction, and for any chosen sample rate, becomes increasingly innaccurate
with increasing frequency. The absolute cutoff of definition this gives in digital application where sampling is inadequate is not nearly as useful in music reprodction as the gentle falloff of analog methods, when applied meticulously.
I refer to the side discussion of real vs digital pianos.


Regarding the meaning of "resolution", this is where point of perspective becomes everything...inside the computer, or outside the computer?
I can see ways these terms become interchangeable, depending on storage space/data rate available.
Ok, we simply learned opposite definitions regarding the gradation/resolution VS. word size/sample rate. I can accept that we agree
on this point despite terminology.

 

[clouseau]

awj223 is correct, in that HD Radio is A standard, along with FMeXtra and AM Stereo,

OK now wait a Dog gone minute. I have seen rules about "AM Stereophonic" broadcasting. I have seen rules about HD. But I'll be Dog Goned if FMeXtra has ever blipped the radar at the FCC to be anything more than Powerside. A device. OR FM Quad (Never any rules on this right?)

I think a "Standard" has to be published. FMeXtra is not that. It's a device like RDS.

It might work. And it might be a good idea. But your Myopic obsession is illustrated here by you believeing it is a standard.

AFAIK, it's no more of a "STANDARD" than an Orban over an Omnia.

I might be wrong here. Any Comments???

Clouseau

 

[Mike Walker]

I agree Clouseau. FMExtra is a "technology", one that's apparently legal, and apparently works well (I've never heard it, but I sure as hell like the idea...it works, and it's cheap!) But that doesn't make it a "standard". There was lots of (matrix) fm quad in the 70s, but there was never a "quadraphonic" standard. None was needed, because matrix surround folds four channels down to two-channel stereo, then decodes them back.

As for frequency extension beyond 20khz, most adults are stone deaf above 15khz, so I wouldn't waste a helluva lot of effort on this. People say "you don't actually hear it, but you can 'sense' the extra extension". OH YEAH? Exactly which "sense" would this be? We only have FIVE. And it sure as hell ain't HEARING. This bs disappears instantly under controlled, double-blind testing. The emperor is NEKKID!

 

[PocketRadio]

Re: HD radio mistakenly labled High Definition on CSpan2 Intervue Toninght at 8P

That's an easy one to solve: GET RID OF THE ANALOG! Unfortunately it's the only one that the FCC has so far failed to solve. Once analog is dead, digital can easily operate in that space. The current system of hashing up adjacent analog channels by generating noise far worse than the worst case scenario imagined by those who designed an emission mask for an all ANALOG sytem...works to some extent, but I wouldn't even come close to calling it a "solution".

With HD radios not selling, analog will never be turned off - there is a lack of consumer interest, around the world, in digital radio. In the UK, sales of DAB radios have slowed, because only older folks have bought DAB radios - the DAB radios are expensive and have problematic reception. In Canada, DAB has stalled, due to lack of consumer interest. In the US, interest in HD Radio has slowed, according to Bridge Ratings, Google Trends, and Statsaholic - only "radio-geeks" have bought HD radios.

 

[R.F. Burns]

Re: HD radio mistakenly labled High Definition on CSpan2 Intervue Toninght at 8P

That's an easy one to solve: GET RID OF THE ANALOG! Unfortunately it's the only one that the FCC has so far failed to solve. Once analog is dead, digital can easily operate in that space. The current system of hashing up adjacent analog channels by generating noise far worse than the worst case scenario imagined by those who designed an emission mask for an all ANALOG sytem...works to some extent, but I wouldn't even come close to calling it a "solution".

With HD radios not selling, analog will never be turned off - there is a lack of consumer interest, around the world, in digital radio. In the UK, sales of DAB radios have slowed, because only older folks have bought DAB radios - the DAB radios are expensive and have problematic reception. In Canada, DAB has stalled, due to lack of consumer interest. In the US, interest in HD Radio has slowed, according to Bridge Ratings, Google Trends, and Statsaholic - only "radio-geeks" have bought HD radios.

The US isn't Canada and the only place HD isn't selling is in areas where indoor plumbing is just around the corner. If these units weren't selling, there would be no reason for these companies to spend the money to produce new radios.