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HD Radio to be Standard on Cadillac CUE

Who decides what amount of return is "fair"? You complain about the greed of the HD developers when anyone with a basic understanding of economics knows that if the price asked by the seller is too high, their won't be a sufficient number of buyers to pay expenses or turn a profit. If you are purchasing the HD equipment you have to make the decision if the benefit outweighs the costs; if the costs are too high for you, don't buy it! Toilet paper or HD equipment, the marketplace works the same.

And what would be your solution to digital broadcasting? Canadian or European style DAB? How well is that being accepted?

Some on the board say we don't need HD and that analog FM works fine or that satellite or streaming meets their needs. If that description fits you, great, you have made your decision in the marketplace just don't keep on & on about how "evil" or greedy the developers of HD are. It detracts from the credibility of your position.

Is this board just a game to see who can be the most opinionated and cynical about a subject? I choose not to play.

Bob
 
But did anyone beyond maybe Chrysler actually aggressively roll out AM stereo in their car radios?

I seem to recall Ford and Toyota both only offered AM stereo on one model of radio, usually the low end or mid-level, never on the premium deck. My parents went through plenty of Toyotas in the 80s and the only one with AM stereo was one with the "mid-level" cassette deck. The premium systems never had it.

GM did. I had both an '87 Pontiac Sunbird and a Cadillac Sedan de Ville with AM stereo. The Cadillac had the bad habit of opening up the receiver bandwidth when it saw the AM stereo pilot. Not usually a problem with daytime reception but a killer at night unless you had no adjacent channel interference.

Bob
 
Dr. Bob said:
It really grates me to hear people complain about the availability of HD radios when the technology, in many ways, parallels the acceptance of FM and color television. They conveniently forget the FM was a higher priced option in the early 70's on most cars and that color television didn't really become mainstream until RCA decided to accept reduced patent royalties so the price and availability of sets came down.

Some autos may have had AM stereo "standard" but the developers of the systems expected a return on investment. That return was generally the broadcast equipment manufactures paying royalties to the developers and passing them on as increased costs to the stations purchasing the equipment although Motorola did have royalties on their stereo decoder ICs for some time.

You want digital radio to be free for anyone to build transmitters and receivers without the developers being able to get a return on investment?

Bob

How many stations are operating in AM stereo now? They are free to install the equipment

The main differences between FM stereo, color television, and HD radio are that:

1) Both were things the consumer actually WANTED. Color on television was spurred by color in the movies. People wanted that experience at home, and are still wanting the home cinema experience now. Stereo was something people wanted in music - they had stereo on albums, and there needed to be a way to broadcast it than simulcast on AM and FM stations. People do not want HD radio - the sound improvement is only noticeable on very high end audio systems. They want HD-2 formats, but stations around the country are finding that people want the format, but on a second FM station they can receive with their present radio.

2) The FM stereo system, color television system did not degrade the bands. Both were elegant engineering solutions made by engineers who understood the necessity of not degrading the existing service in any way. HD radio was a kludged together mess made by engineers who did not take the time to adequately test the system and discover problems that are all too apparent now: HD radio degrades first adjacents on FM, and first and second adjacents on AM. It reduces coverage on both bands. Higher power levels on FM sidebands make a bad self-noise situation on FM much worse. The system is not robust, coverage is terrible, dropouts frequent, and recovery lock periods long. The introduction of the system on AM coincided with the introduction of cheap wideband AM radios that allow 10-15 kHz noise to bleed through the cheap tiny speakers and earbuds, making an AM HD station virtually unlistenable on $5 cheapie radios. The HD engineers solution to the problem? Insult and marginalize anybody pointing out the obvious problems, alienate the technical community of DX'ers as outmoded, wierd geeks who are out of touch with the modern world and reality - and concoct ridiculous studies carefully slanted to ignore the problems.

AM stereo was a fairly inexpensive addition. HD capability is much more expensive - percentage wise - to add to a station and to a radio. The only reasons why AM stereo failed to catch on is that by the time it was introduced, music listeners had moved on to FM, and AM had become the domain of blithering idiots of talk and slobs of sports. And the FCC did not help by being wishy washy on adopting a standard. AM stereo had become an irrelevancy.

I don't give a rodent's posterior about whether iBiquity make a return on investment or not. The system they foisted on the American public is defective and destructive to reception - they ought to go bankrupt. If somebody did a good job of digital radio, they needed a clear business plan showing how they would make a return on investment. One that did not depend on high pressure scare sales tactics, and on consumer acceptance and enthusiasm - which was a tremendous unknown and now has bitten them in the posterior.
 
Dr. Bob said:
As our new car is pretty decked out already (including the aforementioned Bluetooth), I didn't see the need to increase the price by another 15% or so!

Sounds like Toyota's been taking pricing tips from iBiquity!
[/quote]

These stories of pricing are horrific - to me "standard" means it is installed in every single car, even in the low end models. I think - AM stereo was truly standard. No additional cost.


It really grates me to hear people complain about the availability of HD radios when the technology, in many ways, parallels the acceptance of FM and color television. They conveniently forget the FM was a higher priced option in the early 70's on most cars and that color television didn't really become mainstream until RCA decided to accept reduced patent royalties so the price and availability of sets came down.

Some autos may have had AM stereo "standard" but the developers of the systems expected a return on investment. That return was generally the broadcast equipment manufactures paying royalties to the developers and passing them on as increased costs to the stations purchasing the equipment although Motorola did have royalties on their stereo decoder ICs for some time.

You want digital radio to be free for anyone to build transmitters and receivers without the developers being able to get a return on investment?

Bob

How many stations are operating in AM stereo now? They are free to install the equipment
[/quote]
[/quote]

Yeah, Dr. Bob, forgot to mention that the aforementioned new car also came with XM/Sirius installed. After the free 3 months, I need to decide whether to subscribe - but it'll take many years before that subscription cost will equal the expenditure that obtaining HD radio would have in said automobile. About 13 years worth, if I'm not mistaken.

I suppose I shouldn't gripe about it because God knows that Ibiquity needs to get their ROI from me! :D ::) :D
 
Ahh, yesss! I hear the muffled drumbeats of The Fallacy Parade once again! :D ::) "It took Color TV and FM 30 years to take off! HD Radio hasn't done squat in 10 years! So, be patient, because HD Radio = Color TV = FM, right???" (Hit the big loud buzzer, please.) No. It doesn't.

The reasons Color TV and FM didn't take off: the technology hadn't caught up with the concept. During the first ten years of Color TV a set cost 80% of the cost of a new car (yes, you could buy a new one then for $1695) and typical TVs contained 45 to 50 vacuum tubes and required monthly maintenance from a factory-trained engineer, unless you happened to have a TV technician in your family. An early FM ratio detector radio cost the equivalent of a week's salary to a middle-class worker. And these expenditures produced very meager programming; maybe ten hours of color a week and FM consisting mostly of elevator music and simulcasts of AM sister stations.

Once the sets were simplified and were offered at popular prices, it was game-over. Nobody said "you know, we don't need FM; AM sounds fine to me." Nobody said "let's just stay with monochrome TV. Color doesn't look that great." EVERYBODY recognized the superiority of Color, FM and Stereo. And as rbruce has pointed out, none of these systems caused destructive interference to existing services.

HD isn't succeeding and won't succeed because it's a solution to a nonexistent, cobbled-and-hyped "problem" ("the world is going digital!!") It doesn't offer anything but needless expense, complexity and problems.
 
I thought the name Cue was hoplessly tarnished after the Cue Cat flop.

But hey, Ford named a car to rhyme with "mistake", so maybe there's some attraction to
identifying with failure and these exciting times.

Next we'll see the Toyota Trepidation, the Honda Panic and the Chevrolet Catacylsm.
There are even better names out there if we're willing to take ourselves less seriously.
 
The automotive industry has a long history of missteps when it comes to naming their products. During the rise of Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin in the 1930s Studebaker thought it was a dandy idea to roll out a model called the Dictator. Then there was Chevy's Nova ("no va" means won't go in another language) and AMC had their Matador (Spanish for "killer.")

Maybe Government Motors will come up with a pickup called The Bailout-er (after all they've already given us the taxpayer-subsidized Chevy Dolt.)
 
Ahh, yesss! I hear the muffled drumbeats of The Fallacy Parade once again! "It took Color TV and FM 30 years to take off! HD Radio hasn't done squat in 10 years! So, be patient, because HD Radio = Color TV = FM, right???"

Moving the goal posts with threads like this one. "After ten years, HDR isn't stone cold dead. Proving you wrong again, haters." We all knew that much from the adjacent hash.
 
Government Motors once had the defective X-car called the Citation and the 5.7-liter V8 recklessly converted to a diesel without re-designing the engine to be a diesel. Way to go, Government Motors. Lawsuits and no resale value.
 
And don't forget the flip-o-matic Corvair and the aluminum-engined Vega, good for about 40,000 miles before the engine self-destructed. We've offered an on-air cash reward of $100, subsequently upgraded to a $500 prize package including an expensive dinner and theme park tickets, to anyone e-mailing us a photo of an actual Chevy Dolt - being operated by a private owner in traffic here in our service area. (That is, not in a dealer's lot or being operated as a municipal vehicle - it's been shown most of the electric cars have been bought by governments.)

The offer has been out there for 6 months - no takers.
 
Savage said:
The offer has been out there for 6 months - no takers.

Dang it...this will teach me to spend more time listening to WYSL. I saw one in the parking lot at the Pittsford Wegmans the Sunday before last...
 
ddsparxx said:
Government Motors once had the defective X-car called the Citation and the 5.7-liter V8 recklessly converted to a diesel without re-designing the engine to be a diesel. Way to go, Government Motors. Lawsuits and no resale value.

To this day I still hold a grudge against GM for what they did to Americans' opinions of diesels. I've driven nothing but diesel passenger cars since 2000 and still field questions like:

"Is it slow?"

"Does it smoke a lot?"

"Isn't diesel nasty?"

"Won't it rattle itself apart?"

This is not an Oldsmobile, it's modern and works and if 50% of new car buyers in Europe can embrace it, so shouldn't we.

As for the Volt, I'm surprised more aren't on the road yet in the hands of the eco elitists who snapped up Prii early on. So far, I've seen in one my area and it was from Michigan (snowbird on vacation).
 
Europe is a different environment entirely, where it is possible to take trains for many reasons.
We decided LONG ago to "not have trains" for various reasons.
Don't be comparing apples and oranges.

Diesels are noisy, have poor tourque curves, and don't really agree with sub-arctic climates.
They require many more gears to provide useful acceleration that permits them to do their work in
such a limited torque band, and this is either more work for a driver, or more complication in automatic
transmissions. The WIDE torque curve of a gasoline engine can allow three gears to do the job,
allowing more simple design and longer life of drivetrain.
IF all diesels were built with the durability of semi-truck engines, fine. But passenger car engines
really don't have enough mass and meat in the bearings to be reliable (250,000+ mile life) in diesel form.
That rattle diesels make is pure hammer shock to the metal, and I'd much rather have the smooth,
steady effective push upon a piston that comes from the much slower, steady combustion of gasoline.


The Corvair always was a fine car, but it seemed to be impossible to teach Americans to
respect proper tire inflations that were different from front to back.

After a 1964 "adjustment", and a 1965 redesign of the rear axle geometry, the car was damn near perfect,
but Americans still had a hard time driving a car that was SO responsive, having become accustomed to
having 700 pounds of engine mass up in front of the car.

I don't even like GM, for quite a few reasons, but the Corvair was truly a fine car.
 
Note once again when someone has no meat to their argument the first words out of their mouth is usually either racist or hater.
 
Tom Wells said:
Diesels are noisy, have poor tourque curves, and don't really agree with sub-arctic climates.
They require many more gears to provide useful acceleration that permits them to do their work in
such a limited torque band, and this is either more work for a driver, or more complication in automatic
transmissions. The WIDE torque curve of a gasoline engine can allow three gears to do the job,
allowing more simple design and longer life of drivetrain.
IF all diesels were built with the durability of semi-truck engines, fine. But passenger car engines
really don't have enough mass and meat in the bearings to be reliable (250,000+ mile life) in diesel form.
That rattle diesels make is pure hammer shock to the metal, and I'd much rather have the smooth,
steady effective push upon a piston that comes from the much slower, steady combustion of gasoline.

Wow, that's completely untrue.

My car's got five gears, just like every other car on the road. The torque curve of a gasoline engine is not wide so much as it is peaky, meaning it's only reached at a certain range that is almost never overlapping maximum horsepower. The torque of my TDI isn't so much a curve as a gentle plateau. I've got maximum pull from 1900 to near redline at 3750 RPM.

It may be slower off the line than a sports car but in cruising it certainly holds its own and can drive circles around hybrids on the highway. There simply isn't another 4 cylinder out there I know of that can do 1900 RPM at 55 mph and have almost instant pull in top gear — no constant shifting like in the gasser I sometimes drive. With 6 speeds on the tranny. ;)

The mass is definitely there thanks to a cast iron block. It weights the front end down, though, which affects handling. But again, it's not a sports car, or a heavy-all-round hybrid. And I actually know a bunch of diesel owners with 250,000+ plus on otherwise not-so reliable VWs and Mercedes. My 2005 Golf turned over 275k just today and still runs great (wish I could say the same for the rest of the car.)

Compared to a big V8 or even a modern V6, sure they can't handle straight line acceleration or smoothness, but compared to economy cars, today's modern small diesels are a close second only to the Prius in my opinion for fuel cost and come out easily on top if you are a highway commuter. My lifetime mileage average is still over 47 MPG and going from Atlanta to Chicago on one tank of fuel? Easy peasy. Now if only my bladder could do the same!
 
Once again I've managed to veer a topic into the nether lands. My apologies.

To return to a semblance of the thread topic, does anyone happen to know if the Cadillac CUE's HD radio also has AM stereo? It might be a small consolation prize to shelling out for the system. The video and web page for CUE do not mention HD at all. The only music references, period, seem to be to Pandora.
 
Zach said:
The video and web page for CUE do not mention HD at all. The only music references, period, seem to be to Pandora.

I think that demonstrates just how excited GM (and the car's buyers) are about HD....
 
Once again proving: the only people "excited" (not to say desperate) about HD Radio are nerds from iBiquity and broadcasters who have a career stake in the stupid thing.

A footnote on diesels. Normally I find myself in hearty agreement with Tom, but I'll dissent this time. I had a Mercedes diesel which was designed for the fuel (that was the problem with the GM Olds diesels which were cobbled gas engines.) Being approriately engineered for diesel, the 19:1 compression ratio which would have torn a gas engine to pieces in short order didn't present any problems. The car didn't sound like a bucket of bolts or smoke. The starting procedure was simple; I live in frigid Western New York, and as long as you bought fuel from a reputable source, it was winter-treated and I never experienced a single "gelling" incident in more than 100,000 miles of driving. It had a bulit-in 117VAC block heater which I never used once. The Benz had an automatic and it shifted normally and as easily as a gas car.

I do miss the experience of driving round-trip from Rochester to Pittsburgh without having to refuel - a distance of over 600 miles on one tank!
 
Oops, I forgot. Tom, you are absolutely correct about Corvairs. We had two when I was growing up - a 1960 series 700 4-door and a 1965 convertible. They were both fine, reliable and roomy cars. Until the Kovacs fatal in 1962 though, the Corvair tire-inflation issue wasn't widely known, and this did represent a real hazard. The car had the same rear-suspension geometry as a VW but far more power and weight so it was much easier for drivers to get into trouble if they pushed the car near its handling limits.

For my money, any design which demands that typical nontechnical consumers pay close attention to things like tire pressure to maintain safe operation is a seriously flawed one. It's asking for trouble. (Like expecting people to listen to radio stations "only inside their protected contours" and otherwise to expect/accept unprecedented interference from distant signals. Know whutteye mean??)
 
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