HD STANDARD in Volvo of America cars in 2009

[LasVegasRadioJunky]

This is a pretty big step. Other manufacturers are sure to follow.

 

[RadeoEngineer]

Like lemmings.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

This is a pretty big step. Other manufacturers are sure to follow.

You forgot to type that in red letters.

 

[Savage]

(Sigh...) We've been down this road, literally, before.

It was over a year ago when the breathless announcement was made: HD is now a factory option in Ford! Volvo! Jaguar! BMW! Yippee! A harbinger of Universal HD In Cars!! Toyota ain't far behind! Et cetera.

Until the typical HD hyperbole-versus-reality gaposis became evident. First: all the aforementioned marques installed HD in a very minimal, expensive and impractical way - either the factory installs never materialized or the HD function was packaged up in a laughably expensive add-on premium audio offering, opted for by virually noone.

I know: the likely response is, but this time it's STANDARD! Yeah, in...Volvo. With a market share of what, 0.01%? And judging from service bulletins from BMW and Jaguar documented on this board earlier, that HD-standard-in-Volvo will come to a screeching halt once the system's operational problems become increasingly evident.

Jaguar yanked HD indefinitely in September because all of the HD-equipped radios came back to the dealer with owner complaints of weak reception and highly annoying mode-hopping. I saw the factory bulletin. Jag won't be offering HD again any time soon. And a tech bulletin for BMW mechanics was quoted at length here, citing how to deal with similar complaints. It was glaringly obvious that BMW was fearful that HD complaints would adversely impact the marque's high-quality, techno image.

When people buy expensive cars with expensive audio systems, they tend to insist that the radios function properly and without annoying artifacts. I'd be willing to bet somebody dinner that the Volvo experience will have a similar conclusion.

 

[pocket-radio]

Wasn’t HD the supposed answer to perceived competitive threats from ipod mania,
pay-to-play sat radio, web users and everything else?

I mean isn’t iBoc radio’s digital future?

You’d think with so much at stake, its designers would have done this right from the start. Instead it’s turning out to be another boat anchor for radio.

I bet iBiquity applied for a government bailout too?

the big three won't be selling Hd radios.. because they'll be bankrupt.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

This is a pretty big step. Other manufacturers are sure to follow.

When was the last time you checked Volvo's market share in the United States? This is a drop in the bucket. The bucket that HD is in the process of kicking.

 

[clouseau]

Got it.

Lemmings.
They say it, but they might not do it.
Volvo has no market share.
Car Companies are going bankrupt.
Etc.. etc..

I admit it. HD radio being standard equipment in Volvos is truly terrible news for iBiquity. Sort of like that whole "Radios have no value because the price keeps going down.

It's just terrible news. Put Strubel on suicide watch.

Clouseau

 

[dxho]

Got it.

Lemmings.
They say it, but they might not do it.
Volvo has no market share.
Car Companies are going bankrupt.
Etc.. etc..

I admit it. HD radio being standard equipment in Volvos is truly terrible news for iBiquity. Sort of like that whole "Radios have no value because the price keeps going down.

It's just terrible news. Put Strubel on suicide watch.

Clouseau

I've read your comments for more than a year, and it's still hard for me to tell where you stand on this- at least parts of it.

I think Bruce's comment reflects a certain skepticism with how the Volvo announcement might have been trumpeted vs. what it actually represents.

"Other manufacturers are sure to follow"? I don't know. I would think part of it depends on how they handle the issue of dropouts when actually driving around, trying to listen to an HD signal that doesn't cover its market. I detected the tell-tale hash from a graveyard AM on 1230, 75 miles away. I'm curious why someone would bother with a 10-watt signal- no way that's usable any noticeable distance from the transmitter, much less driving around.

For the record, I'm not anti-digital. I'm a dxer, and I chase any commercial broadcast that's out there, including HD. I just think Ibiquity's implementation has some problems. Yes, I've read all the comments here. No, I don't have any better idea(s).

 

[Savage]

Well, Inspector, I don't think anybody here was arguing that Volvo's making HD standard is "terrible news for iBiquity." I think they (including me) were disagreeing with the original poster's declaration that "other manufacturers are sure to follow" as unsupportable hyperbole.

After all: come on now. Most evidence thus far points to the opposite conclusion. Where is the tidal wave of HD option installs predicted for Ford products? How about how Jaguar has shelved HD indefinitely because of owner complaints about poor performance? How about BMW's service bulletin that drones on for 500-plus words about how to deal with complaints and field-fixes for their HD-capable radio systems?

A bad thing for Volvo's decision is, most ironically, the looming tenfold digital power increase being pushed for HD-FM. Most engineering opinion (that would be non-Alliance) agrees that predicted significant loss of analog coverage will primarily afflict in-car listening, with comments filed with the Commission now predicting over a third of FM stations stand to lose up to HALF of car-radio analog coverage due to self-interference. Think that's not gonna bring a wave of angry Volvo buyers back into dealerships demanding fixes? How do you think that will impact Volvo's commitment to HD?

I know: we "don't know how bad" the loss of analog will be. It was just over a year ago when the then much-larger HD lobby argued that HD-AM skywave interference wouldn't be as bad as predicted.

Perversely: they were right, kinda. It's actually been far worse than most have feared. That's why the pop count of HD-AM stations is essentially unchanged over a year with a whopping 80-ish stations on with HD 24-7. Most group operators including the Alliance stations have quietly arranged self-mitigation measures to keep from killing themselves, with the notable exception of CBS (a/k/a "The Worst Company In Group Radio." Check CBS' stock and their desperate shrinkage to chop losses. If they had concentrated on productive pursuits and core basics instead of self-aggrandizing politics and voodoo engineering experiments maybe they'd be in better shape.)

 

[pocket-radio]

Mark Ramsey said:

"HD has been overwhelmed by the same trend-tsunami that is crushing satellite radio - and HD was much closer to the beach."

http://www.hear2.com/2008/11/finally-the-s-word.html

 

[clouseau]

Well, Inspector, I don't think anybody here was arguing that Volvo's making HD standard is "terrible news for iBiquity." I think they (including me) were disagreeing with the original poster's declaration that "other manufacturers are sure to follow" as unsupportable hyperbole.

You are correct. No one said it was terrible news for iBiquity besides me. It's called "using absurdity to illustrate the absurd".

That announcement is good news for iBiquity. Period. If some of the anti gang here thinks it's BAD news, they're wrong. Or that Volvo is worthless as as a partner. That's pretty silly ,too. Accoring to the CEO, "After a first and second quarter with record sales and record income, sales growth decelerated much more rapidly than expected during the third quarter, as visible in the reported earnings." http://www.volvo.com/group/global/en-gb/investors/investor_relations.htm . I didn't see Volvo looking for cash in DC this week. I could speculate that they might have a better grip on their business than our car cos. But I digress

I will not be as foolish as some of the posters here and allude to the significance of this event. Frankly, it's not Earth shattering. However it "IS" the "beginning" of HD radios as standard equipment in cars. Whether that idea ever has a "middle" or a "End" has yet to be determined. It "IS" interesting to look at YOUR quote. Bob. When you state "About a year ago" people said "Toyota ain't far behind". Well perhaps they're ARE far behind. But Volvo apparently "IS NOT". To me, It doesn't make a lot of sense for you to poo poo the prediction made by someone about "A harbinger of Universal HD In Cars!!" in response to an announcement by Volvo that there WILL be universal HD radio in THEIR cars. Maybe I missed something.

A bad thing for Volvo's decision is, most ironically, the looming tenfold digital power increase being pushed for HD-FM. Most engineering opinion (that would be non-Alliance) agrees that predicted significant loss of analog coverage will primarily afflict in-car listening, with comments filed with the Commission now predicting over a third of FM stations stand to lose up to HALF of car-radio analog coverage due to self-interference. Think that's not gonna bring a wave of angry Volvo buyers back into dealerships demanding fixes? How do you think that will impact Volvo's commitment to HD?

So I guess your answer is to remove all radios from cars right now? I mean, why not. According to what you wrote, they're not going to work right. You know, I really can NOT believe what you are saying. Do you even read it? "Comments filed with the commission now predict 1/3 of all FM stations will lose up to 1/2 of their analog audience??" Your quoteing coments filed with the commission as somehow a FACT? You're kidding us right? If we believed all comment filed at the Commission... Forget it... Your assertion is just too ridiculous (as in worthy of ridicule) to address. There are "Comments filed with the commission" by " Mr Harry Setatestes" ON FILE TODAY. The commission doesn't edit 'em for factuality, just for being superfluous. Sometimes they don't even get THAT right. (Side note, I might have to turn in my broadcasters card. I had to look up how to spell superfluous in the dictionary)

I know: we "don't know how bad" the loss of analog will be. It was just over a year ago when the then much-larger HD lobby argued that HD-AM skywave interference wouldn't be as bad as predicted.

Well based on "Comments filed at the comission". FM radio has already been wiped off the dial by HD. http://digitaldisaster.org . And LPFM has ruined FM listening. I heard the CD that told me it would. Would the NAB lie?

And now a word for DXHO. I'm sorry (Not really) that I do not fit neatly into the "Rabid corpoprate radio supporter" or the opposite "HD radio signals will cause my house to catch on fire" crowds which tend to populate this board. I see both sides. Despite the dire predictions of many, FMHD has cause very few problems. And mostly to folks like you. Sadly, Radio has cecome a big time business. They don't care about DX'ers anymore. I see benefits. AMHD sounds a lot better than todays AM, IMHO. But the range sux and the band really needs to be reallocated to make it work right. I would say that I'm NOT the guy who thinks HD radios in Volvos are a bad idea. Nor that the other car makers installing HD makes them lemmings. (We put Factory CBs in Caddy's for God's sake) Sadly, I also do not believe they did the best they could when they tried to reinvent AM radio.

Hope I don't disappoint anyone too much by actually looking at the events and news happening and commenting on them as I see it as opposed to running it through the MSNBC filter.

Clouseau

 

[Savage]

Nobody's running anything through any kind of filter, Inspector. We're just expressing opinions, as are you. Which is the function of this board.

You're mischaracterising things I said in my posts. I never suggested that Volvo was "worthless as a partner," or that I'm "poo-poo'ing" another poster's words. I was simply disagreeing with what you must admit was a sweepingly broad prediction. As has been proven over and over millions of times through history, the "best predictor of the future is the past" when it comes to human endeavour. All other things being equal, what's the best predictor of Volvo's future experience with HD Radio? Look at what happened with Jaguar and Ford, and what's currently (not) going on with BMW. I would argue it isn't good. I'm sure you disagree.
And that's fine.

I quoted one engineer's comments with the Commission. The commentator has decades of experience in development of digital radio systems, and he happens to agree with many others including NPR. The people who believe that the proposed digital HD-FM increase will cause destructive interference in cars are not some kind of "lunatic fringe." Actually they represent a body of opinion which approaches majority, if not actual majority. Read the trade coverage on the digital increase.

Sorry you think my opinions are "foolish" or that my arguments are "ridiculous." I'll leave it up to readers and posters here to make the decision as to whether they agree more with you or with me.

This is one of the great tragedies of HD Radio. If it was the marvelous innovation its boosters claim, it wouldn't be the divisive and endlessly controversial issue which it obviously is. Every broadcaster would simply embrace it and we would all move happily on to "broad sunlit uplands," quoting Churchill's memorable words. Given todays' economic conditions it would be best for us all to work together instead of allowing some dopey preposterously expensive semi-functional technical "standard" divide us into Brahmins and Untouchables.

 

[Chuck]

Has anyone noticed that Volvo, at least the auto division, is owned by Ford? Ford is in trouble. It wouldn't surprise me if Volvo out-lives its parent. I'm not predicting doom and gloom for anybody, but I think Volvo's addition of HD is no big deal. So is Audi's, which has also been announced.

I've owned several Volvos. Their big trucks are the best, but they are affiliated with GM, not Ford. The last Volvo car I owned had an abysmal radio. I hope they have improved. In fact, I came very close to returning the car to the dealer because of the awful radio. Reality checked in, as it often does, and I realized that it was cheaper to throw away the factory radio than it was to fight the dealer, who insisted that there was no problem. Perhaps history may repeat itself. My revenge was to never own another Volvo car. In the last 15 years or so, Chevy's have been fine by me.

Volvo's inclusion of HD radio is very insignificant.

 

[clouseau]

Nobody's running anything through any kind of filter, Inspector. We're just expressing opinions, as are you. Which is the function of this board.

Bob,

I honestly am beginning to believe you are running a campaign. Oh, wait, you are. I am amazed how this issue has caused the vast majority of people on both sides of the issue to compromise their personal integrity to make their point. Perhaps "Run through a filter" is not clear. Let me be MORE CLEAR. Your, and many others here's coverage is slanted. VERY SLANTED. Your entitled to do that, but it comes from an "Against" viewpoint. (Like MSNBC IMHO) To say it does not is just.... well WRONG, IMHO. Surely you're not representing you don't have a personal interest in the outcome of the HD proceeding. You have a page AGAINST the system on your station website. You're soliciting people to sign up at another website called stopiboc.com , for heavens sake. To claim objectivity or not being "Run through a filter" is a stretch for me, Bob. Heck, even Limbaugh and Hannity are up front about not being impartial. Tragically, I think Olberman is just the class clown.

I'm not trying to point out ANYTHING in this thread besides the complete predictability of many of the posters. From "Radio Shack is a crappy company" and they sell HD radios to Circuit City doesn't and now their bankrupt. Now we even get the reincarnation of Pocket-radio posting a single sentence and a Mark Ramsey link. It's hysterical.

I agree with your previous post. We really have been down this road before.

You're mischaracterising things I said in my posts. I never suggested that Volvo was "worthless as a partner,"

Nope, that general feeling was posted by 2 others, IIRC.

or that I'm "poo-poo'ing" another poster's words.

No, but you DID mentioon that someone has preidcted UNIVERSAL HD adaption a year ago. Sorry if I split a hair and called it poo-pooing.

I was simply disagreeing with what you must admit was a sweepingly broad prediction. As has been proven over and over millions of times through history, the "best predictor of the future is the past" when it comes to human endeavour. All other things being equal, what's the best predictor of Volvo's future experience with HD Radio? Look at what happened with Jaguar and Ford, and what's currently (not) going on with BMW. I would argue it isn't good. I'm sure you disagree.
And that's fine.

Frankly, I haven't heard about the problems with BMW and Jag. Electronic devices work in some places and not so well in others. That still doesn't make me think that on=star or cell phones, air cards or AM radio under High tension lines or FM radio in Tunnels are a bad idea. I do believe "HD RADIO" is one of the most misunderstood and mismarket (And overpriced) products ever conceived. (Probably ought to add misdesigned as well)

I quoted one engineer's comments with the Commission. The commentator has decades of experience in development of digital radio systems, and he happens to agree with many others including NPR. The people who believe that the proposed digital HD-FM increase will cause destructive interference in cars are not some kind of "lunatic fringe." Actually they represent a body of opinion which approaches majority, if not actual majority. Read the trade coverage on the digital increase.

I suspect we both read way more of the trade press than we need to. Or should. Again, though, I would characterize your assement of the "Trade press" as one sided. IN fact, at the risk of being ugly, in this election year, a body of opinion which "Approaches a majority" is a minority opinion.

Sorry you think my opinions are "foolish" or that my arguments are "ridiculous." I'll leave it up to readers and posters here to make the decision as to whether they agree more with you or with me.

Not at all. I think a couple of points you made are. ALthough it's not like I've never done that.

This is one of the great tragedies of HD Radio....

Actually, I think one of the great tragedies of HD is what it has done to those who follow it. It has divided the industry and the engineering community more than almost anything else. And that's too bad.

Clouseau

 

[Tom Wells]

Actually, I think one of the great tragedies of HD is what it has done to those who follow it. It has divided the industry and the engineering community more than almost anything else. And that's too bad.

Clouseau

Good engineering does not cause division. It supports itself, and everyone can see benefit or at least promise of success.


I think I can be called impartial and unslanted. I'm in wait and see mode about the FM. I'm surprised, really, that the
10 db increase is so called for. I agree with RBruce that it will be meaningless for mobile or airplane flutter regions.
Otherwise, it's not been much skin off my nose here in Chicago. I admit when I'm on road trips I do not use FM.

AM IBOC I have fully opined on, and feel it was badly bungled by a lack of familiarity with circuit behavior, propogation,
antenna behavior, Q, bandwidth and propogation delay vs data rate (slew) in antenna elements in MW.
This mode needs something that behaves much more like a fiber optic or transmission line or wire,
and MW AM isn't quite like that, it's much more "rubbery" and "shimmery" in its wave nature.


The only bright point for AM IBOC was Aug 2007 when sideband balance improved and some stations began to
process the analog back into something usable.

Volvo is impossibly far off my map. I know 1 Volvo owner.
The '65 Dart ran me 1200 miles to Sleepy Eye MN and back this week, and at 186,000 miles I expect many more out of it.
Can't say if I'll ever get around to newer cars.....
Will Volvo be wise enough to require an optional analog-only lock mode for "troublesome areas or customers"?

The recent removal of IBOC from WGN AM from Chicago ( has it been a week now? ) gives me hope for AM.
They were on 24/7 iboc, and I had read someone's opinion in another thread that they were going to be staunch supporters,
pushing past objections to realize the greater promise. What's happened? Has the iboc been broken for 4-5 days, or did they
just turn it off?

 

[KB1OKL]

I had a 65 Dodge Dart, great car.
Pocketradio and pocket-radio are two different people, I don't care of there are a few people here who refuse to accept that.
The HD radio I foolishly bought gets so damn hot I'd be afraid to leave it on when I wasn't home, might burn my house down ;D.
There is no bias on this board only realistic thinking.
Volvo is not doing themselves any favors by installing IBOC radios, wait until the returns start, very bad time with this lousy economy to install radios that barely work.

 

[clouseau]

.
There is no bias on this board only realistic thinking.

This is truly the single most incorrect statement I have ever seen. It ties at absolute, but still it's anazing. There is bias everywhere. EVERYWHERE, and in EVERYTHING. I, like you, I assume, have values. Those values become a filter for how we perceive things. And what they mean. We all have it. I AM BIASED. So are you. I just can't get my mind around the concept that you think ANYTHING is unbiased, much less this board. AMAZING. And scary.

After your statement, there is nothing ANYONE could write. say or post which would make the point I have been talking about more clearly.

Out

Clouseau

 

[Savage]

"I am running a campaign!" Most perceptive, Clouseau!

Of COURSE I'm running a campaign. Anyone with a pulse, an IQ over 60 and a pronounced lack of suicidal tendencies who was in my position would do the same. That's because I happen to believe that HD Radio is bad for the radio industry generally, me and my people specifically, and the public doesn't care.

As far as my 'campaign' goes: either it's working pretty well, or HD Radio is collapsing under the weight of its vast technical deficiencies, consumer and broadcaster disinterest and incessant lying and hype. I kind of like to think it's some of both.

As to the "divisiveness" which HD introduces: over and over we see it on this board. Someone calls the HD hype and overblown claims or technical faults into question. Or the motives of Alliance and iBiquity in using brute-force to impose further revisions which are unlikely to improve HD's acceptance but will drastically ramp up injury to innocent third parties. There's nothing PERSONAL about it. It's a technical, moral and ethical argument.

And what's the response of the pro-HD crowd? Over and over, just like in your posts, they attack the critics. They change the subject, as in: the Big 3 Detroit automakers are going bankrupt but pro-HD Volvo is doing just fine, as if that has anything to do with HD. They obfuscate. They name-call.

There is a REASON wny HD is divisive. It's because HD doesn't matter, the public doesn't care, and innocent people are being hurt. BADLY. Then the HD crowd adds insult to injury by trying to marginalize the critics. Know what? Just like HD Radio - the lies and hype aren't working. You can't fib a technical standard into market acceptance. Just like you can't unilaterally revise the laws of physics to make three RF channels occupy only one.

It is refreshing to see HD and its thinning band of minions, getting what they deserve.

 

[Savage]

Posted before I was through, sorry.

As far as your charge that anti-HD posters here are "slanted," you are confusing the function of a message and discussion board with that of news reporting. This board is not a form of news medium so the rules of good journalistic practice, such as balance in presentation, lack of editorializing, attribution and so forth do not apply. The posts of pocket-radio, C5, Tom Wells, Clouseau and Savage all equally reflect those posters' passionately-held convictions (you would likely call them "biases") and are equally valid for their expressed purposes.

In short: this is a place for opinion. I would hope that we could all post here, have a vigorous and spirited disagreement, and make our points without attacking those with opposing viewpoints.

I strongly disagree that anybody here has "compromised their integrity" because of expressed views.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Because Volvo automotive division is owned by Ford, and Ford was at the congressional hearing begging for bail out money from the government and taxpayers, the statement that they were not represented there is false.

Over 80% of the comments originally received by the FCC regarding the acceptance of HD Radio were AGAINST IT!

The FCC incorrectly chose to summarily dismiss these negative comments because of lobbying and political pressure. That's why we have the HD radio fiasco that we are now trying to correct.

The solution: FMeXtra
www.dreinc.com