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Hearing Minnesota's Classic Rock Station Instead of XTU...In NJ...What the Hell?

Hey all,

The other day I was riding in the car in central New Jersey around midday when Leigh Richards is normally on XTU, and I hear Led Zeppelin! Being the radio guy that I am I waited until I heard a sweeper...and it was 92.5...Minnesota's Classic Rock!

How is this possible? XTU has a very strong signal yet it was losing the battle to a Minnesota signal. I later surmised this is ABC-owned KQRS.

Someone hear had to have heard it the other day...
 
Hey Dan - I didn't hear that one, but I was driving home on last Friday and instead of WYSP at 94.1, I was picking up KRNA-FM out of Iowa. Told my engineer about it and he said this kind of "skipping" happens this time every year because of the way the troposphere is. So, I enjoyed some Iowa rock for a while that day!
 
Re: Hearing Minnesota's Classic Rock Station Instead of XTU...In NJ...What the H

What happened is a phenomenon called tropospheric bending, tropo for short. It's very common this time of year and can send FM and TV signals thousands of miles.


Dave Gardiner

WVCH 740/WNWR 1540

Philadelphia
 
Re: Hearing Minnesota's Classic Rock Station Instead of XTU...In NJ...What the H

Friday was really bad. We had issues at the station cause of it
 
Re: Hearing Minnesota's Classic Rock Station Instead of XTU...In NJ...What the H

wrsurocks said:
Hey all,

The other day I was riding in the car in central New Jersey around midday when Leigh Richards is normally on XTU, and I hear Led Zeppelin! Being the radio guy that I am I waited until I heard a sweeper...and it was 92.5...Minnesota's Classic Rock!

How is this possible? XTU has a very strong signal yet it was losing the battle to a Minnesota signal. I later surmised this is ABC-owned KQRS.

Someone hear had to have heard it the other day...

Same thing happened to me on the North Carolina Outer banks beach one day. Scary thing was, I just moved there FROM MINNESOTA! Got a little freaked out......
 
Than god!!! I thought it was just me. My alarm is set to the radio not a buzzer and when I woke up this morning I could have sworn I hear something about Iowa.
 
wrsurocks said:
Someone hear had to have heard it the other day...

Last Friday morning, Kansas and Missouri were killing the Philadelphia and Atlantic City stations, then as the day went on, the skip shifted further north into Minnesota. None of the Philly stations could be heard in Hammonton Friday afternoon!
 
Re: Hearing Minnesota's Classic Rock Station Instead of XTU...In NJ...What the H

DG02816 said:
What happened is a phenomenon called tropospheric bending, tropo for short. It's very common this time of year and can send FM and TV signals thousands of miles.


Dave Gardiner

WVCH 740/WNWR 1540

Philadelphia

I thought that tropo only affects stations within a couple of hundred miles, where the waves bend down closer to the earth, while E-Skip is when FM waves from a thousand miles or more behave like AM and bounce off of the ionosphere.
 
Re: Hearing Minnesota's Classic Rock Station Instead of XTU...In NJ...What the H

Wayne McMannors said:
DG02816 said:
What happened is a phenomenon called tropospheric bending, tropo for short. It's very common this time of year and can send FM and TV signals thousands of miles.


Dave Gardiner

WVCH 740/WNWR 1540

Philadelphia

I thought that tropo only affects stations within a couple of hundred miles, where the waves bend down closer to the earth, while E-Skip is when FM waves from a thousand miles or more behave like AM and bounce off of the ionosphere.

I too thought this was more sporadic E-skip than tropospheric ducting, although arguments can be made for both. I was hearing a nicely programmed C2 on 104.3 out of Minnesota, which sounded a lot like the old WRDR out of Egg Harbor City.
 
Chuck Corbin said:
Hey Dan - I didn't hear that one, but I was driving home on last Friday and instead of WYSP at 94.1, I was picking up KRNA-FM out of Iowa. Told my engineer about it and he said this kind of "skipping" happens this time every year because of the way the troposphere is. So, I enjoyed some Iowa rock for a while that day!

I was getting WYSP, WIOQ, WJJZ and WSTW among others in Kenosha, WI that day.
 
Re: Hearing Minnesota's Classic Rock Station Instead of XTU...In NJ...What the H

Don said:
Wayne McMannors said:
DG02816 said:
What happened is a phenomenon called tropospheric bending, tropo for short. It's very common this time of year and can send FM and TV signals thousands of miles.


Dave Gardiner

WVCH 740/WNWR 1540

Philadelphia

I thought that tropo only affects stations within a couple of hundred miles, where the waves bend down closer to the earth, while E-Skip is when FM waves from a thousand miles or more behave like AM and bounce off of the ionosphere.

I too thought this was more sporadic E-skip than tropospheric ducting, although arguments can be made for both. I was hearing a nicely programmed C2 on 104.3 out of Minnesota, which sounded a lot like the old WRDR out of Egg Harbor City.

Yes, it was E-Skip, not tropo ducting. E Skip typically happens during the day, and only for a couple hours at most, while tropo is usually best in evenings, mornings, and overnight, and usually lasts longer.
 
Could someone please take a minute or so to explain how "Tropospheric Bending" works? also why is it very common this time of year? ???

Does it have anything to do with Global Warming? Does Rev. Sharpton approve of this? (only kidding ;) )

Thanks
Stu
 
Re: Hearing Minnesota's Classic Rock Station Instead of XTU...In NJ...What the H

Stuart Greenberg said:
Could someone please take a minute or so to explain how "Tropospheric Bending" works? also why is it very common this time of year? ???

Does it have anything to do with Global Warming? Does Rev. Sharpton approve of this? (only kidding ;) )

Thanks
Stu

Trophospheric ducting, or 'bending,' is a phenomenon that seems to occur, in my experience, when high humidity occurs after a period of relatively dry weather. Here on the Jersey Shore, it is basically a spring/summer/fall occurance. I don't know the actual science behind it, but the trophosphere basically acts as a conduit for radio signals, carrying them usually no more than 500 miles from the tx. The conduit, or 'duct,' usually carries the signal in both directions, meaning that when I can hear North Carolina, they can hear New Jersey/New York/Philly. Tropo has a much higher rate of occurance in coastal areas; for some reason, all that water enhances the effect.

Sporadic E-skip is different: the E layer of the ionosphere becomes 'supercharged,' and makes the normal line of sight + 20 miles or so act like AM at night. Stations can be heard from over a thousand miles away. My best E here has been Texas.
If you have a television on antenna, you know that tropo and/or E skip is likely when reception of the VHF low band channels (2-6) gets wacky. TV skips, too. I've seen Kansas City here!

Happy DX'ing!
 
Re: Hearing Minnesota's Classic Rock Station Instead of XTU...In NJ...What the H

Yeah, I heard something like that too ... listening to 950 WPEN. Their signal went, uh, straight into the ground.

A lot like their ratings...
 
My favorite E-Skip stories have to do with the time right after Howard Green bought WUSS 1490 (now WTKU AM) in the late 1990's. We started getting E-Skip on our STL link, so our sports programming would be regularly interrupted by a Mancow affiliate, going out over 1490 throughout its signal area.
 
Growing up in North Jersey and now living in Philly, my best catches were from Kansas, Iowa, and Oklahoma...all in the same day. Driving around the hills of north jersey, i was listening to z100 (back in its rock days in the 90s), and the signal faded to another rock song. I thought it was y100, no big deal. It turns out it was Topeka's best rock, from Topeka, Kansas! That same day I got a 96.9 from Clarion, IA and and 92.9 from Tulsa, OK. The days of e-skip are over for me, i live less than a mile from the Roxborough antenna farm :-\
 
Re: Hearing Minnesota's Classic Rock Station Instead of XTU...In NJ...What the H

Stuart Greenberg said:
Could someone please take a minute or so to explain how "Tropospheric Bending" works? also why is it very common this time of year? ???

"Tropo DX" is based on refraction, which causes waves to bend due to changes in the speed of propagation through the atmosphere. This phenomenon was first observed with light: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refraction

Electromagnetic radiation moves at the full "speed of light" in a vacuum; gases slow down this motion. Dense (compressed) air near the earth's surface slows the wave down more than the thin air encountered at high altitudes. Under normal conditions, density gradually decreases as elevation increases, causing the top of a wavefront to move just a bit faster than the bottom, so there is usually some moderate bending over the horizon. This is what allows most Philadelphia FM stations to be heard in Atlantic City on a day-to-day basis.

The fun stuff happens when layers of air with significantly different densities and/or humidities form, one on top of the other -- for instance, a temperature inversion, where an elevated warm layer overrides a cooler layer. In the sharp transition region between warm and cold, a high degree of bending takes place, forcing the the wave to follow a "duct", which can carry signals over terrain for a few hundred miles.

This article explains more about Tropo Ducting from an amateur radio perspective:
http://www.astrosurf.com/luxorion/qsl-propa6.htm

During the summer, ducts typically form near the coast and across water in the evening, but tend to "blow apart" after the sun rises the next morning and thermal convention begins to mix up the layered air.

E-skip, on the other hand, is a type of reflection that occurs in the ionosphere. The wave doesn't "bend", but bounces off ionized particles and heads back down to earth. You might compare tropo with a lens -- and E-skip with a mirror.
 
The “trop” (or E-skip) you speak-of was a near all-time record event... Not so much for its distance, but its duration. It managed to “rearrange” local FM reception for at least SIX—and upwards to TEN HOURS [!] in many more locales than Philly. The "event" began in the very-early daylight hours, and maintained itself until "Happy Hour" in some areas.

Savannah’s 100kw Oldies station on 98.3 was made un-listenable on nearby Hilton Head Island for most of the morning and midday by the 3kw Radio Disney station in metro-Indianapolis! A local LP – usually with a solid five-miles of “clock radio” coverage – disappeared on much of the island and the entire adjoining mainland until mid afternoon – replaced by a station from Kirksville, Missouri!

Interestingly, while that station was getting clobbered from a half-nation away, it received a reception report from Hendersonville, North Carolina (near Asheville).
 
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