High Levels of repetition on KIIS-FM, even on Golds.

[powers]

I've been listening to KIIS-FM over the air while driving around San Diego County for about three days during the last ten days or so. I worked in Top 40 radio from 1985-89 and realize that PPM has changed the rules in rotations on a CHR station these days. I have noticed some interesting trends on KIIS-FM though that I don't see happening on other CHR stations, even those run by iHeartMedia. As a comparison, I'm also looking at KHTS-FM, channel 933 here in San Diego.

KIIS has about seven songs that seem to play on average every 70 minutes. This seems to be in line with most CHR stations that run their powers about every 70 minutes. One recent playlist on KIIS shows a rotation of about 66 minutes.

Nobody seems to limit one-hour separations between artists anymore. I think that went out the window when Drake had like 56 songs on the Hot 100 (that was pretty much NOT a joke) Taylor Swift has one hot hit on the chart right now and her next one is working up to a high rotation too. Yesterday I think I heard both songs play within half an hour of each other. Twice.

Here is where it gets puzzling....KIIS is reaching back to the 90s and early 2000s for some of their golds, which is nice to hear them playing iconic songs again every so often.....but they seem to turn up the rotations on their golds to an unusually high level. Case in point...I listened to them about five or six days ago and heard "I Don't Wanna Know" by Mario Winans and P Diddy (#2 in 2004, so 18-19 years ago) around 2:30 or 3 in the afternoon....then heard it again in the 5:00 hour the same afternoon. Okay....that happens sometimes, right? Well, I was driving yesterday and heard it again around 2:30 in the afternoon. Then later yesterday, they played "Lose Yourself" by Eminem (#1 in 2002) around 4:30......the on-air personality even talked about the song. Then at about 5:56 (an hour and 25 minutes later), it was played again as the last song of the hour. When I got home I looked up their playlist for yesterday and the first instance of Lose Yourself (where the personality talked about the song) was not listed but the play at 5:56 was listed.

It just seems odd to me. This was the live 102.7 feed of the station, not an iHeartRadio app feed. In the past, I've heard iHeartMedia fill some ad breaks with older songs like this, usually because it was a safe bet that the station wouldn't play an old song, so there would be less repetition, and on occasion, I had heard these oldies more often than would be thought, but these songs aren't playing on the over the air feed.

Since I am not really tied in with CHR stations these days, is this becoming normal to just suddenly bring some older Gold songs into the mix and then play the heck out of them for a while as if they were new? When I last worked in CHR in 1989 (with a very tight rotation of songs) the station mixed in some Golds in middays and overnights that might get one play every couple of days between the two dayparts, but twenty-year-old songs with 90 minutes to 2 hours between plays and even several plays over multiple days seem out of line. Maybe someone in the business today can enlighten me.

 

[Gregg.]

I can understand the 70 minute rotations on the very top hits. Although I thought rotations are more like 80 or 90 minutes.

But I don't understand playing 15-20 year old songs multiple times in the same day or two. That's the upper end of the library for most Top 40 - CHR stations. So I'm not sure why KIIS-FM or any other Top 40 station would play the same gold song more than once or twice in the same week.

 

[TheBigA]

KIIS has about seven songs that seem to play on average every 70 minutes. This seems to be in line with most CHR stations that run their powers about every 70 minutes. One recent playlist on KIIS shows a rotation of about 66 minutes.

That's correct, and that's basically what the format has been doing for the past 70 years. They call it Top 40 for a reason. The play the same 40 songs over & over. Looking at Mediabase, those 7 songs get about 130 spins a week, which is once every 75 minutes. And yes, that's what other CHRs are doing around the country. If that level of repetition is too frequent, you're probably outside the demo.

Here is where it gets puzzling....KIIS is reaching back to the 90s and early 2000s for some of their golds, which is nice to hear them playing iconic songs again every so often.....but they seem to turn up the rotations on their golds to an unusually high level.

That's also correct, and follows a trend begun by Z100 about a year ago. The quality of the current music wasn't testing as strong as it had, and they were seeing a softening in CHR ratings. So they decided to add some older Gold, going back to the 90s. I counted less than a dozen such songs, each getting 4 plays a week. It's possible they may have played them on the same day but in different dayparts (midday and again in PM drive). The thinking is that they are two distinct audiences. There's another group of Gold getting 2 spins a week, and a third getting 1 spin a week. They cycle out about 50 Golds a week and replace them with a different group of songs. So they may play a Gold song twice in a day, but then it gets retired.

All of this is based on radio consumption patterns that show most people listening to the radio in short bursts. Commercial patterns are also based on short listening patterns. The older the format, the longer the listening. So people in their 50s & 60s listen longer than people in their 20s.

My take is that this use of older Gold is temporary. Z100 tried lowering the number of spins for their heavies last year, and they're back up to 130 spins a week. So perhaps if the quality of hit music improves, they will lessen the Gold. Playing 90s on KIIS probably cannibalizes some of the audience on KOST and other places.

 

[Daryl Lynn L.A.]

I've been listening to KIIS-FM over the air while driving around San Diego County for about three days during the last ten days or so. I worked in Top 40 radio from 1985-89 and realize that PPM has changed the rules in rotations on a CHR station these days. I have noticed some interesting trends on KIIS-FM though that I don't see happening on other CHR stations, even those run by iHeartMedia. As a comparison, I'm also looking at KHTS-FM, channel 933 here in San Diego.

KIIS has about seven songs that seem to play on average every 70 minutes. This seems to be in line with most CHR stations that run their powers about every 70 minutes. One recent playlist on KIIS shows a rotation of about 66 minutes.

Nobody seems to limit one-hour separations between artists anymore. I think that went out the window when Drake had like 56 songs on the Hot 100 (that was pretty much NOT a joke) Taylor Swift has one hot hit on the chart right now and her next one is working up to a high rotation too. Yesterday I think I heard both songs play within half an hour of each other. Twice.

Here is where it gets puzzling....KIIS is reaching back to the 90s and early 2000s for some of their golds, which is nice to hear them playing iconic songs again every so often.....but they seem to turn up the rotations on their golds to an unusually high level. Case in point...I listened to them about five or six days ago and heard "I Don't Wanna Know" by Mario Winans and P Diddy (#2 in 2004, so 18-19 years ago) around 2:30 or 3 in the afternoon....then heard it again in the 5:00 hour the same afternoon. Okay....that happens sometimes, right? Well, I was driving yesterday and heard it again around 2:30 in the afternoon. Then later yesterday, they played "Lose Yourself" by Eminem (#1 in 2002) around 4:30......the on-air personality even talked about the song. Then at about 5:56 (an hour and 25 minutes later), it was played again as the last song of the hour. When I got home I looked up their playlist for yesterday and the first instance of Lose Yourself (where the personality talked about the song) was not listed but the play at 5:56 was listed.

It just seems odd to me. This was the live 102.7 feed of the station, not an iHeartRadio app feed. In the past, I've heard iHeartMedia fill some ad breaks with older songs like this, usually because it was a safe bet that the station wouldn't play an old song, so there would be less repetition, and on occasion, I had heard these oldies more often than would be thought, but these songs aren't playing on the over the air feed.

Since I am not really tied in with CHR stations these days, is this becoming normal to just suddenly bring some older Gold songs into the mix and then play the heck out of them for a while as if they were new? When I last worked in CHR in 1989 (with a very tight rotation of songs) the station mixed in some Golds in middays and overnights that might get one play every couple of days between the two dayparts, but twenty-year-old songs with 90 minutes to 2 hours between plays and even several plays over multiple days seem out of line. Maybe someone in the business today can enlighten me.

I'm not in the business, but I noticed the same issue when listening to KRTH in 4 hour segments last week. For a few evenings I made a list of every song played. It seemed to me that they selected maybe 10 songs and played them frequently, maybe every two hours or so. This went on during the week. On the weekends, when they had syndicated shows, like Gary Bryant, the rotation was different.

A helpful person here who had access to Mediabase, ( maybe The Big A) looked up the information for KRTH and reported, IIRC, that there were about 25 songs that were played 30 to 35 times per week. ( about 5 times each day, more or less). But it sounded to me like more times a day than just 5. Someone else mentioned that they songs might be played closer together, because the day parts ( the work shift) changed. For example, in the last hour of one show, the DJ played the song, then in the second hour of the next show, the DJ played the same song. The songs they really tended to favor were: Thriller, Billie Jean, and Livin' On a Prayer.

I'm just learning about all of this, so I have a question: The playlists and rotation at AC or CHR stations now is all controlled by computer, correct? So, a list of 25 songs that the station wants to put into frequent rotation is sent to the computer, then the computer makes the schedule and the log - is that right?
So, is there any need any more for a human program director at stations owned by big conglomerates? Or is that job obsolete? Same with the music director? ( I understand the difference between the two jobs). Wouldn't someone at the corporate office just scroll through a list of songs, then select 25 or so, then load those titles into the computer to be scheduled? Then the computer schedules from day part to day part without remembering which songs were previously played?
Has anyone here by chance used the software to upload song lists in order to schedule songs into rotation? ( This is completely different how a station scheduled music back in "the old days." Thank you, from Daryl Lynn

 

[MVB13]

Did covid have to do with a lot of throwbacks because people were at home and less music was being released? I hear Z100 in New York play Nsync and Backstreet Boys a lot more than I ever did 10 years ago. I love to hear it, but not on CHR. Yet they ignore hits from the past 5 or 6 years...CHR Radio should embrace new artists. I can imagine teens that listen to CHR in the car don't want to hear older music their parents or aunts or uncles listened to. I'm a teacher and I heard 10 and 14 year old kids sing Backstreet Boys I want it that way on occasion. So they know old songs and I guess are okay with it.

 

[Yabadabado1]

Maybe the station's playlist automation system is thinking "Hey, I like this song, I'm gonna play it lots more. The hell with what the humans want!"

 

[TheBigA]

So, is there any need any more for a human program director at stations owned by big conglomerates?

Someone has to program the computer. That's what the music director does. It's not just music. The MD integrates the music with all of the other programming elements, such as commercials, imaging, live mic breaks (or recorded VT), etc. Radio stations are not just music machines. The elements change all the time as songs are added and dropped. For currents stations, you have songs moving up and down the chart. Very complicated, and it's done differently at every station based on the format and desired results.

The other thing is that the term "program director" has become obsolete because there are so many other things going on that need oversight, such as social media, website, podcasts, promotion, live events, etc. The PD isn't strictly involved with the on-air signal.

 

[davideduardo]

Someone has to program the computer. That's what the music director does. It's not just music. The MD integrates the music with all of the other programming elements, such as commercials, imaging, live mic breaks (or recorded VT), etc. Radio stations are not just music machines. The elements change all the time as songs are added and dropped. For currents stations, you have songs moving up and down the chart. Very complicated, and it's done differently at every station based on the format and desired results.

The problem is that those unfamiliar with music scheduling like MusicMaster and Selector and program automation software don't "get" the complexity.

Instead, they think this is like "an iPod on shuffle" where music is just played at random.

I recommend looking at MusicMaster Scheduling for Music Master or https://www.rcsworks.com/gselector/ for selector as that explains what music scheduling software does.

Both are easier to use now than they were back in the DOS days in the 90's and prior. Back then, stations often hired a consultant to help them set up the music scheduling.

 

[TheBigA]

The problem is that those unfamiliar with music scheduling like MusicMaster and Selector and program automation software don't "get" the complexity.

When stations hire an MD or PD, the main attribute they look for is experience with those two programs. Here's an example from a job listing at Audacy:

• Bachelor’s Degree preferred but not required.
• Knowledge of FCC rules, geographical demographics and familiarity with broadcast area required.
• Must have a strong knowledge of Music Master and knowledge of digital automation systems.
• Minimum of 3 years in radio programming management preferred, with a proven track record of success.
• Must be self-motivated and possess excellent communication skills.
• Know how to win in the PPM Universe.
• An experienced creative writer.
• Creative, Creative, Creative! What’s that “thing” that will make your station?
• Bring great Social Media and Digital ideas that will ignite the audience.

 

[davideduardo]

When stations hire an MD or PD, the main attribute they look for is experience with those two programs. Here's an example from a job listing at Audacy:

And the skillset is very special. Even when I was at the corporate VP level at Univision, I'd do seminars and training sessions in MusicMaster, as well as setting up and reviewing systems for consulting clients from Puerto Rico to Buenos Aires.

 

[TheBigA]

And the skillset is very special. Even when I was at the corporate VP level at Univision, I'd do seminars and training sessions in MusicMaster, as well as setting up and reviewing systems for consulting clients from Puerto Rico to Buenos Aires.

As the computer folks say all the time: garbage in/garbage out. The computer does what you tell it to do, and will keep doing the same thing over and over until you tell it to stop. The repetition people hear on these radio stations is, for the most part, by design. If they incorporate an outside show or VT, it may have its own music list that was based on different parameters. In the OP, he says he listened over the weekend and heard the same song within two hours. It's possible one of the spins came from an outside VT, and that music list wasn't integrated with the overall list. Weekends are different from weekdays. I can't explain why this happened without more information, such as who were the hosts at the time and where did they originate. Radio stations are more than just music lists.

 

[tb_]

I've been listening to KIIS-FM over the air while driving around San Diego County for about three days during the last ten days or so. I worked in Top 40 radio from 1985-89 and realize that PPM has changed the rules in rotations on a CHR station these days. I have noticed some interesting trends on KIIS-FM though that I don't see happening on other CHR stations, even those run by iHeartMedia. As a comparison, I'm also looking at KHTS-FM, channel 933 here in San Diego.

KIIS has about seven songs that seem to play on average every 70 minutes. This seems to be in line with most CHR stations that run their powers about every 70 minutes. One recent playlist on KIIS shows a rotation of about 66 minutes.

Nobody seems to limit one-hour separations between artists anymore. I think that went out the window when Drake had like 56 songs on the Hot 100 (that was pretty much NOT a joke) Taylor Swift has one hot hit on the chart right now and her next one is working up to a high rotation too. Yesterday I think I heard both songs play within half an hour of each other. Twice.

Here is where it gets puzzling....KIIS is reaching back to the 90s and early 2000s for some of their golds, which is nice to hear them playing iconic songs again every so often.....but they seem to turn up the rotations on their golds to an unusually high level. Case in point...I listened to them about five or six days ago and heard "I Don't Wanna Know" by Mario Winans and P Diddy (#2 in 2004, so 18-19 years ago) around 2:30 or 3 in the afternoon....then heard it again in the 5:00 hour the same afternoon. Okay....that happens sometimes, right? Well, I was driving yesterday and heard it again around 2:30 in the afternoon. Then later yesterday, they played "Lose Yourself" by Eminem (#1 in 2002) around 4:30......the on-air personality even talked about the song. Then at about 5:56 (an hour and 25 minutes later), it was played again as the last song of the hour. When I got home I looked up their playlist for yesterday and the first instance of Lose Yourself (where the personality talked about the song) was not listed but the play at 5:56 was listed.

It just seems odd to me. This was the live 102.7 feed of the station, not an iHeartRadio app feed. In the past, I've heard iHeartMedia fill some ad breaks with older songs like this, usually because it was a safe bet that the station wouldn't play an old song, so there would be less repetition, and on occasion, I had heard these oldies more often than would be thought, but these songs aren't playing on the over the air feed.

Since I am not really tied in with CHR stations these days, is this becoming normal to just suddenly bring some older Gold songs into the mix and then play the heck out of them for a while as if they were new? When I last worked in CHR in 1989 (with a very tight rotation of songs) the station mixed in some Golds in middays and overnights that might get one play every couple of days between the two dayparts, but twenty-year-old songs with 90 minutes to 2 hours between plays and even several plays over multiple days seem out of line. Maybe someone in the business today can enlighten me.

I think the song you're referring to is "Creepin'" by Metro Boomin, The Weeknd, and 21 Savage. It samples the Mario Winans hit and has recently been gaining CHR airplay.

 

[Daryl Lynn L.A.]

When stations hire an MD or PD, the main attribute they look for is experience with those two programs. Here's an example from a job listing at Audacy:

Big A, Thank you for sending the job listing. When it calls for "an experienced creative writer", ( always a great skill to have), how does that apply to the job? Would the employee be writing promotional material for the station, or writing spot ads? Audacy stations probably do not write their own spot ads ( those probably come from a big ad agency), so I"m wondering what specific duties would involve creative writing ( again, always an important skill in business). Thank you in advance for your reply. -- Daryl

 

[TheBigA]

Would the employee be writing promotional material for the station, or writing spot ads?

Somebody comes up with the imaging, the liners that the DJs read throughout the day. But there's also a lot of off-air writing that takes place in marketing the station. The ad mentioned social media. The liners they get from syndicated talent. Promos for other shows during the day. Whatever they need.

 

[victorres43]

Didn't KIIS play some 80s music in the mid-90s?

And I once stumbled through an aircheck of WHTZ playing You Shook Me All Night Long in 1994.

 

[TheBigA]

And I once stumbled through an aircheck of WHTZ playing You Shook Me All Night Long in 1994.

They had a stretch in 92-94 when they were more of a rock station than CHR, and even went alternative for a short period.

 

[Daryl Lynn L.A.]

The problem is that those unfamiliar with music scheduling like MusicMaster and Selector and program automation software don't "get" the complexity.

Instead, they think this is like "an iPod on shuffle" where music is just played at random.

I recommend looking at MusicMaster Scheduling for Music Master or GSelector for selector as that explains what music scheduling software does.

Both are easier to use now than they were back in the DOS days in the 90's and prior. Back then, stations often hired a consultant to help them set up the music scheduling.

David, thanks for sending along this information. I am reading all about the Music Master software on their website that you linked. I'm reading about how to set up a format clock, which is very interesting. I'll continue to read more about this programming topic, which is more detailed than I previously thought. Thanks again, from Daryl

 

[powers]

I think the song you're referring to is "Creepin'" by Metro Boomin, The Weeknd, and 21 Savage. It samples the Mario Winans hit and has recently been gaining CHR airplay.

I'll bet you are right! I thought it might have been The Weeknd, with that distinct voice. The over the air signal is weaker and has frequent drops in the San Diego area, and that would solve one of the "repetitive" mysteries. I didn't know the song and only after I got home I googled "I don't wanna know....keep it on the low" which are the only lyrics I could remember, and that led me to the Winans song. I suppose I could have loaded up the station on the iHeart app at the same time to get the name of the song, etc. I couldn't get an HD lock on the station and only when the station was fairly strong would I get the RDS song and title information. So...thank you for that!

 

[powers]

I'm just learning about all of this, so I have a question: The playlists and rotation at AC or CHR stations now is all controlled by computer, correct? So, a list of 25 songs that the station wants to put into frequent rotation is sent to the computer, then the computer makes the schedule and the log - is that right?

I haven't done this in a while, but a year or two ago I used to check out the live music radio stations around the country late at night on the iHeart app, usually after 10 or 11 PM Pacific Time. Most of them wouldn't have jocks on the air at the late or overnight hours, but would just be jukeboxes of music with sweepers (the produced voice elements ID-ing the station between the songs) and commercial breaks. What I found amusing was you could bop around several markets in the same time zones, particularly on Adult Contemporary, Hot AC, and Classic Hits stations and they would be playing IDENTICAL playlists with the same songs in the same order. Because some had longer breaks than others and they weren't lined up by exact time, there would be up to a five minute variance or so between the stations, but it was both amusing and sad because they weren't even trying to program uniquely anymore. Just send a signal to have all of the like-formatted stations play the same playlist. It might as well be a Carl's Jr/Hardee's franchise....different names on the door, but generally the same selection on the inside. I actually never checked an hour or two later in the Western markets to see if they were playing the same lists, but I would assume they were.

 

[TheBigA]

What I found amusing was you could bop around several markets in the same time zones, particularly on Adult Contemporary, Hot AC, and Classic Hits stations and they would be playing IDENTICAL playlists with the same songs in the same order.

The less currents a station plays, the less it matters what the playlists look like. So there's not much keeping the classic hits stations in this country from going 100% national. The only real concern is in markets where there is a competitor. You'd want to have the ability to counter-program. On the other hand, if a station plays a lot of currents (such as country, CHR, or urban) and reports to the trade charts, the chart editor will suspend a station from the chart if he sees too many similarities among co-owned stations.

But sure, I compared several iHeart Christmas stations in different regions a few years ago, and they were all playing the same songs at the same time as though they were all playing from a satellite network. And they probably were. How many people did what I did? A few radio nerds. No one else. So it doesn't matter. The listeners don't care.